posted October 04, 2007 02:57 PM         

Being connected with your spirit, recognizing it, if you will, and being comfortable with it makes one more aware of thier Fate/Destiny.

Being less connected to your spiritual side and self [more physically focused] makes one perceive to have lot's of control, thus calling it "free will" and believing to have chosen thier life path.

Ultimately, I believe... We do not so much choose as we are the Chosen

posted October 05, 2007 12:16 AM         

Morning comes.
Light enters thru a small window.

After a while a bird enters.

The bird traverses all paths in the room and then escapes thru the same window.

I will stop with my commentary as it will spoil for people who really got what i wanted to say

posted October 05, 2007 03:26 PM         

~ Hazrat Inayat Khan

Hi nattie,

I've posted here many times in the past about my belief in Determinism, and given many logical arguments to support the refutation of so-called "free will". I have discovered many passages in religious scriptures which I believe illustrate a deterministic worldview, and the writings of the mystics, in particular, of all ages and cultures, describe a reality unequivically incompatible with independent agency (free will). The awareness, experience, and objective reality of Oneness, upon which all true spirituality, and all deeper understanding of the world and the motives of human beings depends, and to which all signs point, renders the very notion of free will meaningless and absurd.

The great philosopher Schopenhauer defines the first, most basic and elementary principle of logic as follows: "Everything that happens in the universe has a reason for being such as it is, and for not being otherwise than it is." All operations of logic presuppose the truth of this principle, and this principle, properly understood, presupposes the interdependency of all phenomena in the universe, and, therefore, the absence of a free will. If a person wants to argue in favor of free will, the first thing they ought to do is recognize this simple fact, and admit that they cannot support their argument by logical means, but must resort to something utterly fantastical, beyond even the most liberal boundaries of reason. If this is not agreeable, they should abandon the argument altogether.

"The Principle of Sufficient Reason", as it is called, states, essentially, that there is a reason for everything; that the question, "Why?" may be applied to any proposition, and that this deliberate questioning leads inevitably to a greater depth of understanding as new layers are always being revealed. When you look honestly and unblinkingly, you will find that every so-called answer is also a question in disguise, and every so-called cause is also an effect. Free will supposes that a person may act without cause; that a choice may be independent of the conditons under which it is made. But this is to say that a choice may be independent of its own substance! Is anything further removed from logic than this?

Free will is a superstition which imagines that a human being, and a human will, can exist inside a vacuum. It states that, although a certain influence takes place, ultimately, the choice to do this or that remains with the man. But the man himself is left unplumbed! What might we find, if we looked deeply into him? We would find that the greater portion of both his heart and mind is unconscious, and that even the conscious part, the tip of the iceberg, is predetermined by his past conditioning and genetic make-up. We would find that he bases his choices on a very limited scope of knowledge and emotion, and is ignorant of both the deeper origins and eventual consequences of his actions. We would find that, in order to incline in one direction, rather than another, his will must be acted upon by something anterior to itself. Even to locate the motive force of the will within the will itself, begs the question, "of what is the will composed?" Ultimately, like everything else in the universe, a human will is composed of that which it is not; for no thing can give birth to itself. Like a jewel in "The Web of Indra", each thing in the universe, when peered closely into, can only reflect all the other things in the universe. It is composed of what it is not, and is not distinct from what composes it. Hence, even to say that the will is self-contained is to say nothing; since the very substance of a "self", or a thing, is that which once existed anterior to it, and will exist that way again when the self (the thing, the object) has accomplished its purpose.

((Now, this is only speaking of substances, and the point here is that, of substances, there is only one. If we wish to speak of essences, we will find that there is, likewise, only one ultimate essence. Because it is one, I call it God.))

All things are connected. All things are interwoven. At the subtlest level, all things are One. Peer closely into any object. You will find that what seemed, at a distance, like boundaries, sharply defining and demarkating the object from the space and the other objects which seem to surround it, are, in fact, not solid boundaries at all. When you look closely, you cannot pin-point the exact place where a river becomes an ocean, or where ice becomes water, or where a boy becomes a man, or where a decision becomes a choice. Everything flows seamlessly into everything else, and is the only natural and necessary consequence of the conditions preceeding it. The past engenders both the present and the future. It is only an optical illusion of consciousness to suppose that the present engenders the future, when the present is itself engendered by the past. We would do well to reflect on what has come before us, since it is precisely this which has made us what we are.

I could go on and on, but I'll stop here.

posted October 05, 2007 03:28 PM         

"There are a lot of myths which make the human race cruel and barbarous and unkind. Good and Evil, Sin and Crime, Free Will and the like delusions made to excuse God for damning men and to excuse men for crucifying each other."
- Clarence Darrow

"Punishment as punishment is not admissible unless the offender has had the free will to select his course."
- Clarence Darrow

"Everything in nature is the result of fixed laws."
- Charles Darwin

"Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect as well as the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper."
- Albert Einstein

"We like to forget that in fact everything in our life is chance, from our genesis out of the encounter of spermatozoon and egg onward."
- Sigmund Freud

"The enormous value of the concept of free will in relieving parental shame and guilt is the only and overriding reason, in our opinion, that the lie of free will is well nigh universally taught to all children. If and when we can convince parents of total determinism, so they are freed from their own shame and guilt, they will no longer need to teach the vicious lie of free will to the world's children. A new world will be born."
- Peter Gill

"There but for the grace of my determinants go I."
- Peter Gill

"The initial configuration of the universe may have been chosen by God, or it may itself have been determined by the laws of science. In either case, it would seem that everything in the universe would then be determined by evolution according to the laws of science, so it is difficult to see how we can be masters of our fate."
- Stephen Hawking

"You will say that I feel free. This is an illusion, which may be compared to that of the fly in the fable, who, upon the pole of a heavy carriage, applauded himself for directing its course. Man, who thinks himself free, is a fly who imagines he has power to move the universe, while he is himself unknowingly carried along by it."
- Baron d'Hobach

"Whether or not we have personality disturbances, whether or not we have the ability to overcome deficiencies of early environment, is like the answer to the question whether or not we shall be struck down by a dread disease: "it's all a matter of luck." It is important to keep this in mind, for people almost always forget it, with consequences in human intolerance and unnecessary suffering that are incalculable."
- John Hospers

"Everything, including that which happens in our brains, depends on these and only on these: A set of fixed, deterministic laws. A purely random set of accidents."
- Marvin Minsky

"The first dogma which I came to disbelieve was that of free will. It seemed to me that all notions of matter were determined by the laws of dynamics and could not therefore be influenced by human wills."
- Bertrand Russell

"A man can surely do what he wills to do, but cannot determine what he wills."
- Schopenhauer

"A self is a repertoire of behavior appropriate to a given set of contingencies."
- B. F. Skinner

"To say that a man is sinful because he sins is to give an operational definition of sin. To say that he sins because he is sinful is to trace his behavior to a supposed inner trait. But whether or not a person engages in the kind of behavior called sinful depends upon circumstances which are not mentioned in either question. The sin assigned as an inner possession (the sin a person "knows") is to be found in a history of reinforcement."
- B. F. Skinner

"In the mind there is no absolute or free will; but the mind is determined to wish this or that by a cause, which has also been determined by another cause, and this last by another cause, and so on to infinity."
- Baruch Spinoza

posted October 05, 2007 03:56 PM         

1
Awake! For morning in the bowl of night
Has flung the stone that puts the stars to flight:
And lo! the hunter of the East has caught
The Sultan's turret in a noose of light.
4
Now the New Year reviving old desires,
The thoughtful soul to solitude retires,
Where the white hand of Moses on the bough
Puts out, and Jesus from the ground suspires.
11
With me along some strip of herbage strown,
That just divides the desert from the sown,
Where name of slave and sultan scarce is known,
And pity Sultan Mahmud on his throne.
20
I sometimes think that never blows so red,
The rose as where some buried Caesar bled;
That every hyacinth the garden wears
Dropt in its lap from some once lovely head.
24
Lo! some we loved, the loveliest and the best,
That time and fate of all their vintage prest,
Have drunk their cup a round or two before,
And one by one crept silently to rest.
25
And we that now make merry in the room
They left, and Summer dresses in new bloom,
Ourselves must we beneath the couch of earth
Descend, ourselves to make a couch - for whom?
28
Why, all the saints and sages who discuss'd
Of the two worlds so learnedly, are thrust
Like foolish prophets forth; their words to scorn
Are scatter'd, and their mouths are stopt with dust.
29
For let philosopher and doctor preach,
Of what they will and what they will not - each
Is but one link in an eternal chain,
That none can slip, nor break, nor over-reach.
31
Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and saint, and heard great argument
About it and about; but evermore
Came out by the same door as in I went.
32
With them the seed of wisdom did I sow
And with my own hand, labour'd it to grow:
And this was all the harvest that I reap'd -
'I came like water, and like wind I go.'
35
Up from Earth's center through the seventh gate
I rose, and on the throne of Saturn sate,
And many knots unravel'd by the road;
But not the knot of human death and fate.
43
Ah, fill the cup: - what boots it to repeat
How time is slipping underneath our feet:
Unborn tomorrow, and dead yesterday,
Why fret about them if today be sweet!
48
While the rose blows along the river brink,
With old Khayyam the ruby vintage drink:
And when the angel with his darker draught
Draws up to thee - take that, and do not shrink.
59
How long, how long in infinite pursuit
Of This and That endeavor and dispute?
Better be merry with the fruitful grape
Than sadden after none, or bitter, fruit.
60
You know, my friends, with what a brave carouse
I made a second marriage in my house;
Divorced old barren reason from my bed,
And took the daughter of the vine to spouse.
61
For 'is' and 'is-not' though with rule and line,
And 'up-and-down' by logic I define,
Of all that one should care to fathom, I
Was never deep in anything but - Wine.
64
The grape that can with logic absolute
The two-and-seventy jarring sects confute:
The subtle alchemist that in a trice
Life's leaden metal into gold transmute.
66
But leave the wise to wrangle, and with me
The quarrel of the universe let be:
And in some corner of the hubbub coucht,
Make game of that which makes as much of thee.
74
'Tis all a checker-board of nights and days
Where Destiny with men for pieces plays:
Hither and thither moves, and mates, and slays,
And one by one back in the closet lays.
75
The ball no question makes of 'Aye's and 'No's,
But right or left as strikes the player goes;
And he that toss'd thee down into the field,
He knows about it all - HE knows - HE knows!
76
The moving finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy piety nor wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a line,
Nor all thy tears wash out a word of it.
77
And that inverted bowl we call the sky,
Whereunder crawling coop't we live and die,
Lift not thy hands to It for help - for It
Rolls impotently on as thou or I.
78
With Earth's first clay they did the first man's knead,
And then of the last harvest sow'd the seed:
Yea, the first morning of Creation wrote
What the last dawn of reckoning shall read.
82
And this I know: whether the one true light
Kindle to love, or wrath consume me quite,
One flash of it within the tavern caught
Better than in the temple lost outright.
83
What! out of senseless nothing to provoke
A conscious something to resent the yoke
Of unpermitted pleasure, under pain
Of everlasting penalties, if broke!
84
What! from this helpless creature be repaid
Pure gold for what he lent him dross-allay'd -
Sue for a debt he never did contract,
And cannot answer - O the sorry trade!
85
O Thou, who didst with pitfall and with gin
Beset the road I was to wander in,
Thou wilt not with predestination round
Enmesh me, and impute my fall to sin!
86
O Thou, who man of baser earth didst make,
And who with Eden didst devise the snake;
For all the sin wherewith the face of man
Is blacken'd, man's forgiveness give - and take!

KUZA-NAMA ("Book of Pots")

89
Then said another - 'Surely not in vain
My substance from the common earth was ta'en
That He who subtly wrought me into shape
Should stamp me back to common earth again.'
90
Another said - 'Why, ne'er a peevish boy
Would break the bowl from which he drank in joy;
Shall He that made the vessel in pure love
And fancy, in an after rage destroy!"
91
None answer'd this; but after silence spake
A vessel of a more ungainly make:
'They sneer at me for leaning all awry;
What! did the hand then of the Potter shake?'
92
Said one - 'Folks of a surly Tapster tell,
And daub his visage with the smoke of Hell;
They talk of some strict testing of us - Pish!
He's a good fellow, and 'twill all be well.'
97
Indeed the Idols I have loved so long
Have done my credit in men's eye much wrong:
Have drown'd my honor in a shallow cup
And sold my reputation for a song.
98
Indeed, indeed, Repentance oft before
I swore - but was I sober when I swore?
And then and then came Spring, and rose-in-hand
My threadbare Penitence apieces tore.
100
Alas, that Spring should vanish with the rose!
That youth's sweet-scented manuscript should close!
The nightingale that in the branches sang,
Ah, whence, and wither flown again, who knows!
103
Ah Love! Could Thou and I with fate conspire
To grasp this sorry scheme of things entire,
Would we not shatter it to bits - and then
Re-mould it nearer to the heart's desire!
104
Ah, Moon of my Delight who know'st no wane,
The Moon of Heav'n is rising once again:
How oft hereafter rising shall she look
Through this same garden after me - in vain!
105
And when thyself with shining foot shall pass
Among the guests star-scattered on the grass,
And in thy joyous errand reach the spot
Where I made one - turn down an empty glass!

TAMAM SHUD (It is completed)

posted October 05, 2007 08:19 PM         

Mannu- i understand exactly what you said

posted October 07, 2007 09:01 PM         

Now let me add some commentaries.
Lets not worry about how we came in to existence. Since we did, then lets be like that bird. It acquired some knowledge of the room, or vibration , or air or call it whatever. It didn't necessarily travelled each and every space of that room. At some point while he is flying to and fro from one corner of the room to the other, he saw a source of light thru the window. It followed it and was let outside the window.

So all those questions such as is there free, is there fate will etc will come up in the initial years of ur spiritual quest. We must respect those questions and the response to those questions we must make it our priciple and stand behind it. Now imagine the same room, and its dusk. The light starts fading. You turn on one of the lamps in the room. You go about your activities, and ready to go bed. So you turn off the switch. Suddenly thru the same
Window moonlight appears. And floods the room. You have an epiphany moment and you say - OMG the moonlight was always there. The light of the lamp hid the true moonlight. The light of the lamp is akin to the light of ur own ego that hides the true pristine light of your soul. It always colors up the true view.

When you go to high school you meet people who are good and people who are bad. Good and bad being relative. Lets say some people who take drugs are bad. Based on your own free will you decide if you want to associate to that group or not. Lets say you decide not to. So you are supposedly on a good path or positive path.

A person from the bad group comes to you and says heh take drugs. Of your own free will choice you say "No . Thanks. Not even in my dreams".

You see it was ur own conscious choice. God does not act for you. He allows both paths equally. If you did decide to take drugs. You are what I call on a negative path.

You are not destined to be on a positive path or negative path. That is answer to your your question on fate. You see the divine light is always within you. It is your responsibility to protect it or let it die.

This world we live in - consider it as a fabric of space - time. Lets say this friend of yours does not give you a choice. But sedates you injects you with a needle. What he is doing in that process is infringing on your space-time field. You consciously did not want it. You were forced. The friend of yours cannot cheat time. It will return to him as a bad karma in the future.

So as long as we are alive in this world. We make conscious choices and create our own future. Like the bird in the room. No one knows, if it first travel from the east to the west or from north to south.

The out come such as does he take 20 trips to find that window? Or does he take just 2 trips to find that window? is really unknown.

In vedas God is called the all witnessing. It never never interferes. Well never say never hehehe.....

Lets all be practical and wise to chose consciously in that case. I am sure you must be thinking this is a video game and you are in it. Well sure you are. If you can see thru the third eye. Just seek techniques to open that up.

God is boundless. He is not bounded by his creation the physical. And since you are his/her children you too are boundless. As you take ur steps closer towards God. There will come a moment ( i hate to call it that but have to start somewhere don't I), when you will drop all your identities the things that you call ur own. There won't be past nor future nor present. You are just one with many and with God.

Love.

posted October 10, 2007 07:03 PM         

And we say "the sun rises".

But the sun does not move, only the earth.

So, it is the same with our will.

From where we stand,
choices seem to originate with us.

But that is an illusion of consciousness.

Ultimately,
our choices are shaped by our perspective,
our perspective is shaped by our DNA and environment/experience,
and these, in turn, are shaped by GOD.

Imagine a row of dominos.
You tip the first domino, and all the others go.
The 31st domino is not ultimately responsible for tipping the 32nd domino.
As long as the first domino is tipped, the 32nd will also fall.

It is the same with us.
Once the universe is set in motion, we must play our parts.
You are condemned to find yourself confronted with choices,
whether you want to make choices or not,
and condemned to choose this or that.
There is no escape, no freedom.
So, you choose this, or you choose that.
And you make your choices for reasons.

Let's say, as Mannu suggested, you choose not to do drugs.
The question becomes, "Why did you make that choice?"
At this point, Mannu is speechless.
He has no answer for this question.
All he can do is repeat the dogmatic cry, "Because of free will,"
which is really no answer at all.

The truth is you chose not to do drugs for very definite reasons.
For one thing, you may not have been tempted.
Maybe drugs never appealed to you.
Maybe you have a naturally conservative disposition.
Then again, maybe they did tempt you, but you resisted.
Perhaps you are very close with your father,
or some other authority figure, and they dissuaded you.
Perhaps you were scared.
Perhaps you had to get home early.
Perhaps you were informed of the dangers of drugs and,
having no powerful inclination to experiment with them,
you easily made the decision not to do them.
Perhaps there was something you wanted to do more,
and drugs would have gotten in the way.

See, this is how logic works.
There are REASONS for things that happen.

Who would choose the negative path?
Who would consciously choose to self-destruct?
Who would do this freely,
and not because they were ignorant, weak, sick, or stupid?

Anyone?

Nope.

Not logical.

Not possible.

Doesn't happen.

It makes some people feel better to think that it does. It helps them to feel better about themselves, and not to worry so much about others. But its a lie, and its the reason there is still so much judgment and intolerance in this world.

posted October 10, 2007 07:54 PM         

quote:

---

Let's say, as Mannu suggested, you choose not to do drugs.
The question becomes, "Why did you make that choice?"
At this point, Mannu is speechless.
He has no answer for this question.
All he can do is repeat the dogmatic cry, "Because of free will,"
which is really no answer at all.

---

Ask me HSC, why feel shy? Is shyness worth defending? Its another Ego, Maaannnnnn

posted October 11, 2007 01:57 AM         

If you see an unanswered question somewhere,
by all means, answer it.

And leave the ego out of it.

posted October 14, 2007 12:36 PM         

quote:

---

I didn't mean to cause an argument here.
It was just something i had seen at work in my life.

---

You didnt cause anything.

Threads are like children;
we want to take responsibility for them,
and to shelter them, and take care that no influence,
other than the one we intended, may come to bear on them,
and lead them in a direction unintended by ourselves.
But, like children, threads have a life of their own,
and must be allowed to grow and develop in their own way.

Having said that,
it is natural that a thread entitled "Free Will or Fate" would invite debate.

Debates get "real" sometimes.
Passions are excited and debates become arguments.
But arguments are not fights,
just impassioned debates.

This is an issue which I feel strongly about,
and I speak strongly about it.
Evidently, Mannu feels the same.

If he wishes to debate the evidence, I invite him to do so.
If he wishes to make snarky remarks about my motives and my ego,
he is welcome to do so, as well,
with the understanding that he will be called to account,
and made to support his extravagant claims,
whether they regard the matter at hand,
or egos, as the case may be.

I am always ready for a good debate,
with someone who is passionate (i.e. cares about the subject),
and has a well-developed point of view to share.

But thats me. I'm a Scorpio. I delve.
Mannu appears to be more casual,
contenting himself with superficial thrusts,
followed by frequent retreats;
never seeing a battle through to its completion.
(I would wager that he reasons with himself
in much the same way that he debates with others.)
Perhaps he has a strategy that works for him.
In any case, his thrusts will not go unanswered by me.
If he seeks a challenge, he'll find one in me.
But I'm not sure that is what he seeks.

So how 'bout it, Mannu?
You want to discuss this or not?
I'm game if you are (and even if you're not).
I welcome a playful, provocative, jousting style,
but I ask that it be accompanied by a sincere attention to the substance at hand.

"When a man contradicts me, he arouses my attention, not my anger.
It is enough for me that he direct his responses to the subject of my inquiry.
Agreement is utterly boring."
~ Montaigne

HSC

posted October 15, 2007 10:50 AM         

I do enjoy conversing with you and agree to a lot that you have to say.
However I do not wish to debate yet, because when rubbed, I cannot lie and esoteric teachings will be revealed. My guru says never reveal unless u know the person very very well and do it only if he/she is sincere. Thats how the enlightenment science has been protected through out ages. Also its better to hear from a Master directly because the purity of the teachings gets filtered/colored otherwise.

Besides I don't think posting here on internet is a great way of communicating. My typing has to catch up with my thoughts, don't they?

I am still battling my own egos. I don't have a lot of them though. That reminds me the question on "Why the person, won't take drugs." I can point you to ask your guru or higher self or a living guru (someone here on physical earth at this time) or holy spirit or whoever you have faith in or even in your congregation, for "Samskara." Its a loaded topic itself.

And a disclaimer: Most of the thoughts I post here are my own, and does not represents thoughts of the many people I came to know. I try to quote my source as much as possible.

Ok back to work. Its a busy day.

*edited later* I have a degree in Physics. I always believed that where science ends faith begins. Many are going crazy creating the string theory model. God is so incomprehensible - you cannot go with a scale to measure him/her. If you get a kick out of it or passionate about it , its a different story. Grace is the ultimate lottery to win.

Oh how I thirst for a glance of Him.
He is the knowledge in the Vedas, yet the Vedas says it does not know him
He is beyond the Dimurge god or the trinity Gods
Holy! Holy! Holy!

the song to be conitued later...
Love to all.