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Author Topic:   The Golden Age Of Light
Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 8329
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted June 03, 2008 10:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Rising Star Healing Modality Initiation Workshop

The Rising Star Healing Modality was channeled by Spiritual Teacher and Healer Derek O’Neill from Dublin, Ireland, to be reintroduced to humanity. Its undiluted lineage has been passed down directly from the Masters to Derek O’Neill, the sole initiator of Rising Star Teachers on the planet.

While giving a workshop in NYC, Derek O’Neill suddenly became silent and then announced to the 300 people present that the Masters had just told him to share a new healing system with them and the world. A lady who was very ill volunteered to receive it and before everyone’s eyes her spine, that had been out of alignment with scoliosis for years, was straightened.


Formerly known as the Minjushri Initiation, the Rising Star is the next step in man’s evolution. The Masters have said the Rising Star is massively powerful and sacred. It is an Initiation from Source to Source and begins Ascension on all levels: the Mind, the Physical and the Spiritual. It is an amazing gift to humanity at this time.

During a healing session, the Rising Star raises the vibration of the human aura (energy field) and the field around every living thing. It moves up and down the physical, as well as the etheric body, traveling above the crown chakra and filling the light body. It grounds Divine Love and Light into the human form and awakens the Heart Chakra. The energies go where they are needed most, to do the most good for your overall well-being. For the recipient it requires only a willingness to heal.

The Rising Star is so simple to give and may even be given remotely. The Practitioner requires no faith to give it. Three healing sessions are recommended, three weeks apart, allowing greater levels of Love and Light to fill your being. The effects may be felt by family and friends as well, reflecting the changes that may occur within you. The benefits of the Rising Star are profound and extensive and last for 21 months. They include:

Removal of misqualified or negative energies from the Seven Chakras;
Clearing and healing of your being on all levels;
Opening to your True Self;
Activation of up to 36 strands of DNA;
Gaining access to your Fifth Dimensional Light Body;
Connection to your Highest Consciousness;
Opening of the Fourth Eye – the Master’s Eye;
Rejuvenation of the body on all levels.
Rejuvenation of all cells of your body;
Commencement of your Ascension process of body, spirit and soul;.
Creation of Unity Consciousness among Humanity.

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Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 25962
From: Columbus, GA USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted June 04, 2008 08:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
That's borderline as far as violating our advertising rule goes. I can only guess at how much money these personal "appointments" cost. Don't be surprised if this gets deleted (I'm still pondering it).

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"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." Charles Schultz

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 8329
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted June 04, 2008 10:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
quote:

That's borderline as far as violating our advertising rule goes. I can only guess at how much money these personal "appointments" cost. Don't be surprised if this gets deleted (I'm still pondering it).

LOL

Hey Randall,

I deleted the last bit about the advertising,
and the stuff about Sai Baba (I'm not so sure he's on the level).

Really, it just looked neat to me and i wanted to share the info.

There are threads advertising specific healing products and services all over Health and Healing, arent there?

Is there really something wrong with sharing information
about services for spiritual health and ascension?

I'm even more confused about the specifics than you.

Anyway,
Everything costs money, right?
Who knows how much it costs;
but we certainly spend a lot on our cars,
and other material things, so, why not on our souls?

Seems that there are all sorts of "appointments" for New Age services,
from astrological counseling to polarity therapy to spell-working to you-name-it.
That guy from "The Secret" (what-his-name) offers weekend intensives
that are VERY expensive, but people say they are getting their money's worth.
These things appear to have helped a lot of people, and thats what its about, right?
(And this guy has a "nice face", so I suspect he's not in it for the dough.)

Information is power.


God Bless,
hsc

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Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 25962
From: Columbus, GA USA
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posted June 04, 2008 10:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
I'm not so sure this guy is on the level either. To me he sounds like a modern version of the proverbial snake oil salesman. But there's definitely a very fine line between helpful suggestions and shameless plugs. I try to remain very liberal in that regard, whether I personally agree or not. But I certainly don't want any Knowflakes to be duped and conned out of a lot of money either.

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"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." Charles Schultz

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 8329
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted June 05, 2008 02:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Hey Randall,

I hear you. And I respect your desire to protect your fellows. I'm not sure what cause you have for being suspicious, though. The tone of the site is clearly intended to market a service, but thats just business; thats generally how its done. The motives behind it may be pure and the service may be all its cracked up to be. That they are really pushing something is clear, but not suspicious, in my opinion. I think all these sorts of things involve an element of faith, or risk. I want to believe that most people can judge for themselves whether or not he is worthy of their faith, or worth the risk. When it comes to people like Osho, Sathya Sai Baba, and James Van Praagh, with whom there is some evidence to suggest fraudulent behavior, then I am quick to be suspicious and to share my suspicions, or (as in the case of Osho) conclusions. I do my homework, and, so far, I havent dug up anything negative on O'Neill. Other than the fact that he is (or was) a devotee of Sathya Sai Baba, and evidently believes in the legitimacy of this person who I am somewhat suspicious of, so far, everything I've found is glowing. But you have the right idea, and you make a good point, when you advise caution.

_____________________________________________________________________________________
http://www.livinglifepublishing.com/authors.php

Derek O'Neill is a master spiritual teacher, healer and psychotherapist based in Dublin, Ireland. He is committed to teaching both individuals and corporations how to use consciousness, compassion, and cooperation to transform not only themselves but also the world. This can be achieved by starting with yourself, then family, friends, neighbors, your country and then the world.

As the founder of Born Free Now LP, Derek helps us to discover the possibilities for expansion and growth right here, right now to manifest the life we want. Through healing workshops, professional corporate coaching, and teaching tools such as books and DVDs, Derek shows us how, in this moment, we are either using conscious choice to create positive change or unconsciously allowing our choices to be made for us. Believing that it is our moral obligation to utilize the tools we have been given - including ideas, experiences, support, and financial resources - to help humanity, Derek leads by example as a successful businessman who is happiest when serving and motivating others. He demonstrates that our highest ideals are not only compatible with good business sense but are in fact essential to our success, happiness, and fulfillment.

Derek's presence, humor, unconventional leadership, charm, and vast love are forces to be experienced. He is a way-shower of healing and truth in an era of need. His timely teachings guide us through the current climate of personal and global change, by enabling us to access the wisdom of the heart.

Derek is a practicing psychotherapist, philanthropist, and founder of Creacon Prema Agni Healing Centre, a spiritual teaching and retreat center in Wexford, Ireland. He holds the position of Supervisor of the Ireland's Association of Hypnotherapists and Psychotherapists, is a martial arts sensei, and is a loving husband and parent. His popular More Truth Will Set You Free workshops have helped thousands worldwide to free themselves from longstanding obstacles and step into love, joy and empowerment. His upcoming book, From Lead to Gold, is highly anticipated by all who have experienced his inspirational teachings.

Derek has been featured in such places as The New Yorker magazine. To find out more about Derek O'Neill and Born Free Now, please visit www.BornFreeNow.com.

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Randall
Webmaster

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From: Columbus, GA USA
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posted June 05, 2008 08:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
We all have different filters based on our life experiences. For some reason, this guy triggers my BS detector.

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"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." Charles Schultz

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 8329
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted June 05, 2008 09:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Okay. Well, that counts for something.

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Aselzion
Moderator

Posts: 1445
From: North Andover, MA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted June 06, 2008 12:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aselzion     Edit/Delete Message
Greetings...

Despite the man's connection to Ireland, I'd have to say I agree with you Randall.

I checked out the website, and also the cost of the seminars etc.

This sounds alot to me like what Linda was warning people about in the introduction to Star Signs.

It's one thing to charge a reasonable fee for your services and information, or at the very least the format in which you provide that information. However, the fees for learning to become a Teacher of this modality were upwards of 3,000 Euros if I recall correctly!

Though I am of the opinion that Readers should be paid for their services, the contract between a metaphysical Teacher and his/her Students is not traditionally to be monetary.

Just my two cents (American, to be sure and not Euro!)

Blessings...

A

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"The ALL is MIND; the Universe is Mental." *** The Kybalion

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Mannu
Knowflake

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From:
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posted June 06, 2008 11:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mannu     Edit/Delete Message
>>>It's one thing to charge a reasonable fee for your services and information, or at the very least the format in which you provide that information.


I managed to take a cursory look at the web site. Some of the healers were talking about Archangel Michael and all that gibberish.

I believe that enlightenments of everyone where the whole decides to make everyone enlightened is not worth it, even if its possible. Enlightenment earned thru self inquiry is much much worthier. Individual liberation is the best.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 8329
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted June 06, 2008 11:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Hmmm...

Money is such a trip.

I really hope you are wrong.
Its a disappointment every time,
to find someone abusing the good faith of those in need.
Still, I hope I never get used to it.

I've given my views on the charging of fees for lessons before.
Its definitely a sensitive topic for a lot of people.
I dont give deference to tradition in all cases, thats for sure.
I think people often need to give, pay, or exchange something of value,
in order to preserve their respect for the thing received.
Money is energy, and a very palpable symbol of commitment.
Its a sad psychological fact that we often devalue a thing,
or value it too lightly, when it is freely given.
Studies have shown that people dont receive in the proper, respectful spirit,
when they have not had to suffer some sacrifice for the thing received.
When a teaching is transmitted without effort on the part of the student,
that teaching is likely to be taken too lightly, in a profane spirit,
and this necessarily compromises and inhibits the full transmission of the teaching.

It seems to me that it is more dubious to charge for a healing, or even a consultation,
as it is taking advantage of a person in a weakened or confused condition.
Whereas the transmission of a higher teaching is something more than a healing;
something extra and unnecessary; something willed or aspired to.
Still, you may be right, Aselzion. And that would be a shame.

My question would be,
"IF it is wrong to charge money, or to charge a fee equal, or nearly equal, to the value of the thing imparted,
then, is the person who asks the fee deceiving the client, or themselves, first and foremost?"
Do you get the impression that this man is consciously doing something wrong?
Is it just that he is charging money, and that is a clear Star Signs taboo, or is it something more?
Is there some objective criterea by which to formulate our judgements?

3,000 euros.... that is somewhere in the vacinity of 5,000 dollars, right?
Wow, that is a lot of dough. At least, to a lot of people.
What about Reiki, though? It costs nearly as much to become a Reiki master, doesnt it?
Including the transmission of the first, second, and third degrees.
And when you reflect that people pay upwards of 40,000 dollars a year,
to attend a private university and learn the secrets of the secular world...
And to learn nothing of the sacred teachings that bring true, spiritual liberation.
This man claims to impart something infinitely more valuable,
and to do it in a much shorter time, with much less effort on the part of the recipient.

There is a lot of room here for debate, in my opinion.


respectfully,
HSC

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Mannu
Knowflake

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From:
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posted June 09, 2008 02:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mannu     Edit/Delete Message
If its too reasonable of a rate, then some people might think they don't offer anything valuable and therefore there are some masters who charges 10 times than normal to maintain that quality in the market place. Very few people can recognize the diamond in the rough.

In my experience the more money I paid , the better service I got in this world.
But in the spiritual world its the exact opposite. The specialist does not do anything really - the healers or friends or followers or disciples or whatever you wanna call them should be so still so as to either tune with the master (the gateway to existence). Or have faith/trust that it wil happen. Every individual is different and responds differently. Just as sugar pill therapy will work for some people but not for all.

Having said all that - existence does not hide anything. Everything is available. Nothing is hidden really. Be a lamp unto yourself. If you ask it is not given , if you don't ask it is given. Hehehe...i'm sure your head must be spinning by that last statement

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Aselzion
Moderator

Posts: 1445
From: North Andover, MA
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posted June 11, 2008 11:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aselzion     Edit/Delete Message
Greetings...

HSC...

Well, at best it is a slippery slope!

When a Student is brought together with a Teacher on the metaphysical level, as Linda has suggested, no money is to change hands. I believe that there are issues of Soul contracts and the Law of Attraction that bring such as these together for the purpose of INDIVIDUAL Spiritual growth and development. No Money should change hands in this scenario.

When a seeker comes to a Reader, who has doubtless spent years and beaucoup bucks developing their Skills, I believe a fee is in order. As you have stated, a person often does not value what he gets for free! As a case in point, I can recount numerous friends that have asked me for readings over the years, which I have freely given. Oft times later they come back and tell me that they have since seen, and PAID another Reader, and they were told the same things that I told them for free. As has often been said, 'one is seldom a prophet in one's own land'.

The Fee: WOW! What a concept, and that I believe, is the cause of much and heated debate. I opine that the Reader's time and effort, for often there is an energetic or emotional cost to the Reader, should be rewarded. Barter? Sure, why not?! Cash? Absolutely! It's all energy. The point is it should represent an EXCHANGE.

And I also believe that Readers should Gift a certain amount of their Gift/Talent to those that cannot financially afford their services. Intuition will often help the Reader discern when this is to apply.

The Fee itself. Well, some readers charge Upwards of $150.00 an hour (or by the half hour) for their services. I know as an RN, I do not make that kind of money on an hourly basis. But, if I were to seek a reading from this Reader, I would have to make a decision about the value of their service, and if I choose to pay that premium. MY FREE WILL decision. If it is worth it for me to procure the services of such a Reader, then I will have to come up with that cash. For me it would involve an extra shift at work. For others, that may represent 2 days or more of their time, blood, sweat and tears! It is my belief that the fee should be "reasonable". Now we are faced with another Choice - reasonable to whom? I may feel that $50.00 for a half hour reading is reasonable. If you are unemployed, would that be reasonable to you? So much depends upon circumstances.

The Reader. Well, some are energized by reading, and walk away feeling "filled up" by their connection to the Universal Energy. Other Readers, particularly those who have the Gift of Empathy, may feel drained by the emotions of their client(s) and the circumstances in which they find themselves. Such an Empathic Reader may feel "drained" by the encounter. (Mediums also may feel this same draining)

Now, in the case of someone like John Edward or Sylvia Brown etc. (fill in many more 'famous' psychics as you will) These have achieved a certain amount of notoriety for their Gift. They have written a book, or have appeared on television or radio, and now they have become celebrities, if you will. Often times, the demands on their Time have become such that they charge what I might consider an unreasonable fee (for MY budget). Often they will charge a premium such as $300.00 or more for a half hour consultation to KEEP THE BULK OF THE PUBLIC AWAY. And at those rates, they have waiting lists that may carry out for months in advance. If one cannot afford their services, one need not apply! But it is my sincere hope that they do reach out and help those less fortunate from time to time...

At any rate.. these are just some of the variables that come to mind. I am sure everyone can come up with an argument for or against everything I have said. The point is: to maintain a balance, there should be an exchange between a Reader and a client. This is NOT a Teaching relationship. It is rather a "fee for service" type of relationship. As I have said, it is based on a different type of exchange than that between the Teacher/Student.

As to the gentleman in question. I do not know him, nor his works. It is my sincere hope that he is legitimate. But it sound a bit too much like a commercial to me from what I have seen. It has left me cold... but that is only my take.

I am sure that there is more to be said on the matter... but I think I have been long-winded enough for one sitting.

Hope I have made some kind of sense in all the rambling.

Blessed Be...

A

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"The ALL is MIND; the Universe is Mental." *** The Kybalion

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 8329
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted June 11, 2008 07:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Aselzion!,

I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to respond.

It does seem to me, though, that you have made statements of belief concerning the student/teacher dynamic without going further and making an effort to explain your reasoning behind these conclusions. You merely restate your position. On the other hand, you did expand somewhat on the healer/client, or reader/client, relationship, giving us more insight into your thinking process here. You explained very well how the exchange of money for service may be deemed reasonable. But I do not see you making a comparison of the two, and explaining how or why the teacher/student relationship is any different; the points you made for the reader/client dynamic seem equally applicable to the teacher/student dynamic. Nor did you respond directly to any of the points I made. What you say about maintaining an equal balance between reader (or healer) and client makes considerable sense, and has provided me with some food for thought, but I do not see how these rules, if they are to be accepted in this instance, ought to be rejected in the instance of teacher-student. Are we to believe that a certain amount of inequality is preferable in the student-teacher relationship?

I genuinely wish to understand the logic and principles behind this rule, for it is nearly impossible for me to take such dogmas on faith, particularly when they appear to contradict my reason. It seems to me that equality is good in all circumstances, but that the transfer of energy, whether in the form of clinking or folding money, or in some other, perhaps more standard (less relative), form, is something very much open to interpretation and to the particulars of the given situation. In other words, the exchange of energies ought to be decided according to observable criterea as well as an intuitive element. This touches upon a common theme in my thinking, and something close to my heart. I am continually confronted with the perception that every situation is more or less unique and open to a fresh interpretation. While the value of traditional rules of thumb cannot, and should not, be overlooked, I believe we ought to remain flexible and, in a spirit of youthful exploration, mindful of the fact that "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath"; that the rules have not been set down for good and all, but, that we exist on the crest of history, with the responsibility to increase and revise our understanding, rather than simply bring it into accordance with the ancient codes of our forefathers.

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.

~ Khalil Gibran

Again, I appreciate any and all attempts at sincere dialogue. It is difficult to find people willing to enter into an in-depth exploration of these admittedly complex questions. We must all decide for ourselves whether it is worth the expenditure of our energy. For my part, this appears to be an essential dimension of my own destiny and orientation, but I realize that we all have our own areas of interest and expertise. Discovering how we may orchestrate our various energies, gifts, lessons, and/or "medicines" harmoniously, without negating one another, is the work of countless lifetimes, and I find it fascinating. You will find me wide open to any sincere attempts at seeking and achieving this kind of synthesis.

"In wise discourse, it may be that no progress is made before the eleventh hour. But progress is made."
~ Valerian The Fool


Respectfully,
HSC

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Aselzion
Moderator

Posts: 1445
From: North Andover, MA
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posted June 12, 2008 12:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aselzion     Edit/Delete Message
Greetings...

HSC...

Well, I had no intention of trying to address your post on a point by point basis, but rather to clarify my opinions in the matter at hand, which was the exchange of money for knowledge if I remember correctly.

To address the Student/Teacher issue:

1) I think I mentioned that it was my belief that in terms of Individual Spiritual growth/development, no money was to change hands. This relationship, as I have stated, is usually Karmic to some degree and is drawn to one by "contracts" if you will, or more simply what has been called the Law of Attraction. In terms of contract: the Student and Teacher determine (presumably prior to incarnating on the physical plane) that they will each play their particular roles for the other. In this case, I do not believe that cash should be exchanged. It would be almost like your Angels or Guides asking you to put the cash on the barrelhead before helping you. Why don't we call this type of relationship Sacred, for want of a better term; as the purpose of this type of Teacher, really, is only to help us remember Who and What we Really Are.

2) When it comes to mass market education, as in holding a class for a large group, where the goal is instruction in one particular aspect of the metaphysical field, such as Astrology or Tarot or Numerology, I believe that a fee is in order. We might call this a "fee for service" relationship.

Firstly we have the teacher's time and expertise to consider. He or she has presumably spent a fair amount of both time and money learning their art. There are the books that they have read, the classes they themselves have taken and the time they devoted to practicing thier craft to become an expert. This is all worth something, and as I have said, a reasonable fee is in order.

The student in this case desires to gain an understanding of the material in a more structured way than merely by reading the information from a book. Perhaps they want to participate in a class to meet like minded individuals and to practice what they are learning as they learn. A group setting will facilitate this process for certain types of people.

Whatever materials the instructor provides, be they handouts or chart forms or perhaps even a manual prepared by the instructor; all these items cost the teacher something to procure, and for which he/she should be reimbursed. The phrase, "This ain't charity work" comes to mind here for some reason.

Again, the student has the option of NOT going to the class, not studying with this particular instructor and not paying the fee. No one is forced to attend, and generally the fee will be something that represents an investment in the student him/herself.

Again we are faced with.. what is reasonable? And again, it depends. No one is extorting money. If one wants to hear the music, one has to "pay the piper', as it were. If you want to take the class, you find a way to scrape up the money for it. And as you have said, this will most likey increase the value of the knowledge as it represents a certain amount of sacrifice on the part of the student. As you say, in some instances, a thing is only worth what you pay for it.

So, I suppose that is my rationale for making a distinction between Teacher/Student on an individual basis versus a more "academic setting", if you will.

In an ideal world, we might all be happily engaged in doing what we love and would not need to worry about where the next meal was coming from. I think Gene Rodenberry had such a vision for the future which he incorporated into Star Trek.

However, this world is often less than ideal. We often work at jobs that do not feed our Soul, in order that we may continue to feed our bodies and have a comfortable/safe/warm place to live.

Again... my opinions. I do not presume to speak for anyone else. I think alot of this issue comes down to: what are we willing to pay for what we want to know? Is it reasonable to pay $1500.00 for a week long class to develop our ability to See/Hear or Feel our Angel's guidance? It depends!

What is it worth to you?

Blessed Be...

A

P.S. Is it an inequity to make a distinction between the types of teacher/student relationships? I do not believe so. They exist for seperate purposes. The one is to foster growth/evolution. The other is an exchange of goods (the teacher's time/materials etc.) for financial benefit.

Hope that helps.

A

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"The ALL is MIND; the Universe is Mental." *** The Kybalion

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Randall
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From: Columbus, GA USA
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posted June 23, 2008 12:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
I think A said it well. The key is whether or not it is instructional in nature.

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"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." Charles Schultz

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 8329
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted June 27, 2008 12:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
A,


You did it again.

You crafted a solid argument on why money ought to change hands,
but you somehow thought to pass it off as an argument
deliniating the distinctions between teacher/student relationships.


quote:

Firstly we have the teacher's time and expertise to consider. He or she has presumably spent a fair amount of both time and money learning their art. There are the books that they have read, the classes they themselves have taken and the time they devoted to practicing thier craft to become an expert. This is all worth something, and as I have said, a reasonable fee is in order.

...

Whatever materials the instructor provides, be they handouts or chart forms or perhaps even a manual prepared by the instructor; all these items cost the teacher something to procure, and for which he/she should be reimbursed. The phrase, "This ain't charity work" comes to mind here for some reason.

Again, the student has the option of NOT going to the class, not studying with this particular instructor and not paying the fee. No one is forced to attend, and generally the fee will be something that represents an investment in the student him/herself.

Again we are faced with.. what is reasonable? And again, it depends. No one is extorting money. If one wants to hear the music, one has to "pay the piper', as it were. If you want to take the class, you find a way to scrape up the money for it. And as you have said, this will most likey increase the value of the knowledge as it represents a certain amount of sacrifice on the part of the student. As you say, in some instances, a thing is only worth what you pay for it.

...

In an ideal world, we might all be happily engaged in doing what we love and would not need to worry about where the next meal was coming from.



Indeed. Everything you said here makes perfect sense,
but you do not describe how it is any different in another situation,
and, anyway, I have entirely lost sight of your basic premise.
I thought you were saying no fees should change hands for teachings,
but now I cant seem to distinguish what you are saying at all.
So, are you saying that, when it is one on one,
when it is a case of "Individual Spiritual growth/development",
then, and only then, is the meeting karmic and sacred;
and no energy in the form of money may be exchanged,
regardless of the practical needs and good intentions of the people involved?

If this is what you are saying, you still have not described it,
and the fact that you wrote one little paragraph,
with one ambiguous phrase ("individual spiritual growth"),
while managing to say a lot more about why money should change hands
(something I already agreed with and complimented you on making clear)
suggests to me that you do not understand the distinction yourself.
Why would you spend almost your entire post restating
and/or elaborating on what has already been said and consented to,
and totally avoid the real issue of this discussion?

Riddle me this:

Why is one relationship more karmic?

Explain this to me.

Do you have a reason or logic to support this,
or is it just taken on faith from old grimoires?

You say "It would be almost like your Angels or Guides
asking you to put the cash on the barrelhead before helping you."
This is the closest you come to giving an actual reason,
but, again, you do not go further, and make the distinction clear
between this form of relationship, and the other.
You go on, rather, to dispute yourself, and to provide
at least half a dozen solid reasons for why money should change hands,
and why it is not a case of "Angels or Guides asking you to
put the cash on the barrelhead before they will help you,".
But the distinction between the types of relationship and teaching are unclear.

You say that the work of the first teacher is to help you to remember who and what you really are.
Is this what the flyer will say? So I know that this is the karmic teaching?
Dont all spiritual teachings help us to know who and what we really are?

You also say, the purpose of one relationship is to foster growth,
and the purpose of the other is an exchange of the teacher's time, energy, and materials "for financial benefit".
First of all, why would you suddenly assume financial benefit is the primary goal,
rather than the necessary "evil" that you just described it as?
Second of all, isnt the first teacher also giving his/her time, energy and materials?


Seekingly,
HSC

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 8329
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted June 28, 2008 03:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
"Believe those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it;
doubt all, but do not doubt yourself." ~ Andre Gide

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Aselzion
Moderator

Posts: 1445
From: North Andover, MA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted June 28, 2008 08:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aselzion     Edit/Delete Message
Greetings HSC...

I am sorry if I have clouded the issue.

I see certain things as right and others as wrong, in much the fashion Linda did. Clearly these are judgments that we place upon them, and are not accurate statements of intrinsic value (or lack thereof).

I have had Teachers in my life that have shared Truths with me... this information or guidance was given freely.

I have had other teachers from whom I wished to learn particular things, and for that information I paid a price.

In the first instance, there was a bond of Spirituality and love. They acted as Guides or Earth Angels, helping me when I was in need, and lifting me up when I was down; giving me "homework" to do to make me a better Me.

The latter individuals shared particular information with me, and with many others in those classes, where they were basically selling their information to any who could afford or cared to pay for same.

I learned things in both instances. One was more exemplary of God's way, and one was more rooted in human capitalism.

There are many cases where I believe charging a fee is, to put it quite simply, wrong. True Healing should be given freely. However, in this world that is most impractical, because the Healer needs to have food, shelter, clothing and the other essentials...

The issue is quite large, and encompasses many a slippery slope. I am not sure that I can adequately answer your questions, as I think the issues must be resolved for each of us by ourselves.

What are we willing to pay? What are we willing to exchange? What is the nature of the relationship?

I don't know that there is one "pat" answer for all circumstances.

I believe that originally we were talking about the Irishman in question who was selling his teachings of a particular Healing modality.

I know what I think about this, based on my reading of his literature.

Perhaps the question is what do YOU think? What are YOUR feelings in this matter? What feels Right to YOU?

My views are mine and work within my belief systems. I cannot expect that those same beliefs would be applicable to you and yours.

Hope that helps a bit.

Still Seeking mySelf...

A



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"The ALL is MIND; the Universe is Mental." *** The Kybalion

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 8329
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted June 29, 2008 05:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
A,


That does help quite a bit.

I think we must have gotten off on the wrong foot,
because I did not realize you were stating subjective considerations
(despite your use of the word "opinions", which i overlooked).
This would explain/excuse your (otherwise unexplained) subjective statements.
I thought you were proposing an article of objective, karmic, universal law,
which ought to be accepted by everyone who wishes to avoid a karmic catastrophe.
We can still discuss these things, but its a very different matter to me now.
I agree, it is a slippery slope and everyone approaches it from a different angle.

I find these matters particularly interesting (and confusing), I think,
having Pisces on my 2nd house, and Venus in retrograde;
not that there is a causal, but a corresponding, relation there.

The question of balance and even exchange is interesting,
particularly when we are discussing metaphysical "commodities".
All matters of worth are, as far as we can see, subjective,
and each person aproximates what they will pay,
or what payment they will accept, for a given service...
If either person feels cheated, there will be an imbalance,
and the transfer of wisdom or healing will be comprimised...
This is one reason why a "free" exchange is less messy,
and has the ring of something truly spiritual;
unsullied by capitalistic interests or associations.
When money is in the picture, so is everything we associate with money;
all the "profane" things we spend it on, estimating their value more or less arbitrarily;
or so it seems, especially when we consider what to charge for something sacred;
as we are in a position of having to compare it with profane things
for which we have sacrificed a more or less comparable sum in the past.
We also associate money with all the corners that people cut to make a buck.
We enter into any question of money with a preconceived suspicion,
and this also contributes to our wanting to see money as profane,
and to separate it, whenever possible, from activities which we consider sacred.

All of this I understand, and all I can say is that, it would appear,
whenever something may be given or received gratis,
it ought to be, as there is a lighter feeling around gratuity;
we like getting things for free, and may feel just as good about giving them.
And, yet, as I've pointed out, this lightness
may easily be translated into irreverence; so now what?
While it is undoubtedly preferable, wherever possible,
to give and receive freely (and in the proper spirit),
we cannot overlook the practical realities of the world we live in.
If a teacher is not in a position to give a teaching for free,
I think it would be a shame for that teacher NOT to teach,
and, rather, to make his living by some "profane" means,
because he is loyal to a dogma which states that it is categorically wrong
for him to ask and receive payment for something so invaluable.

The more I think about it, the more subtle the whole problem seems to me.
For instance, if a teaching is freely given, but on account of a karmic debt,
then, can we accurately say that it is freely given?
Is it not rather simply that the fee has been paid in advance?
For, if it is truly freely given, then it would be given without condition;
it would be given to anyone who is receptive, and not only to someone
with whom the teacher shares a karmic bond from the past.

Lots to think about.

As for the Irish guy...
Maybe, if I made upwards of a hundred thousand a year,
it might be worth taking a chance on such a pricey venture.
Although I suspect that greater spiritual rewards may be gained
by simply giving an identical sum to charity, for those who really need it,
rather than setting it aside for my own personal advancement.
In any case, I think I would feel guilty paying that sum,
if I was not assured that it would be worth it;
that it would render me more capable of giving service to others.
I believe this guilt would compromise the transmission of the teaching.

Thats all I got for now.


Nice talking with you,
HSC

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ListensToTrees
Knowflake

Posts: 5069
From: Infinity
Registered: Jul 2005

posted June 29, 2008 08:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ListensToTrees     Edit/Delete Message
Derek sounds like an interesting bloke.

------------------
"Tender is my heart, for screwing up my life"~ Blur

The truth
is a brilliant, many-sided diamond.
The great life fills this gem and colors from every side.
Mystics, messengers, and sages and teachers of all ages, races and beliefs have spoken of a different face of this common Eternal Truth.

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Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 25962
From: Columbus, GA USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted July 14, 2008 11:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
Interesting is certainly one word you could use.
http://bethfarner.com/services.html

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"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." Charles Schultz

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sesame
Moderator

Posts: 1592
From: Oz
Registered: Nov 2003

posted July 15, 2008 09:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sesame     Edit/Delete Message
Who in the world would pay 10000 dollars for something like that! My God! No wonder there's such shonky people out there that never go away. It's like the human race is only as strong as our weakest link. If the weakest link happened to save 10000 bucks, and give it to an Irish person (not to be racist or anything) for this sort of thing really speaks about the human race! My point is stop falling for this stuff and it may just go away - our chain will strengthen! I don't know if I'm a hypocrite as I want to learn reiki and it costs 250 dollars and is also passed from person to person, but I'm not sure about the long-term investment gain on my capital. A saxophone could also cost 250, so I don't know which would be better? At the moment, I still have to save 250 first! Nice to see you guys again!

Cheers,
Dean.

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I realized it for the first time in my life:
there is nothing but mystery in the world,
how it hides behind the fabric of our poor,
browbeat days, shining brightly, and we don't even know it.

Sue Monk Kidd, "The Secret Life of Bees", p79

Logically Magical Logic is Magically Logical Magic! (and vice versa!)
Numerology Program

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Mannu
Knowflake

Posts: 3184
From:
Registered: Mar 2006

posted July 15, 2008 12:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mannu     Edit/Delete Message
Some enlightened masters are behaving socialists.

steal from rich men and distribute to the poor


I am against all such stupid ones.
They may be faking enlightenment. Or even if they are not faking it - I alreasy lost my connection with such masters. Not my ideology.

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