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Author Topic:   Self-definition vs. giving others a spiritual definition
RegardesPlatero
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From: Storybrooke, Mr. Gold's Shop
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posted April 06, 2012 08:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RegardesPlatero     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is a delicate question, so I'll tread very carefully.

I hear a lot of people (and admittedly, I'm guilty of this too) calling people "not a real ___" (insert whichever religion you like). People told me that all of the time when I was still a cafeteria Catholic, many moons ago--that is, that I "wasn't a real Catholic". (In hindsight, I would have to agree, though I didn't know it or believe it at the time). I've often thought that about certain kinds of Christians--namely, the ones who oppress women and others, and who use religion as an excuse to do horrible things. Conservatives of any religion would call liberals "not real___", and vice versa: I've seen that happen on both sides, and admittedly have been guilty of it myself, as I've said.

So, my question: do you feel that any of us have the right to tell someone that he/she is "not a real ___"?

When you yourself say that, if you do, who do you mean?

I'm torn. On the one hand, each religion does have core tenets that are universal across denominations. One cannot, for example, be Christian and not believe that Jesus was the Messiah--that just doesn't work, to give one example. So, I do think that some things are non-negotiable. For Christians, it would be something like the Nicene Creed, which pretty much sums up the very basics of Christianity.

However, I also wonder if it's fair to say that someone isn't "a real ___" just because they're a different denomination.

The gray area for me is, as I've said, when people use religion as an excuse to oppress people or otherwise do horrible things, like people who bomb buildings, beat people up, hate gay people and advocate crimes against them, want to keep women down and oppress them, incite violence or riots, judge people, things of that nature.

Then again, do I have the right to say that? If others believe just as sincerely as I do, who am I to tell them that they're wrong just because I personally feel that they are? But, then again, should I just keep my mouth shut when I feel like someone is so wrong that it is harmful, such as when people shun, hate, and otherwise harm people, emotionally or physically?

Where does diversity and acceptance thereof end and terrorism/using religion in bad ways begin?

Again, I know that this is delicate; will close if it gets out of hand, but I really am curious to see how other people see this issue.

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Ami Anne
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From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
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posted April 06, 2012 02:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Born Again Christians/ Bible Believers believe there is one way to God. So, for a Bible believer, this it the "real" way.

------------------
Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal


http://www.mychristianpsychic.com/

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T
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posted April 06, 2012 02:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"I believe all religions pursue the same goals, that of cultivating human goodness and bringing happiness to all human beings. Though the means might appear different the ends are the same."
—H. H. the 14th the Dalai Lama Tenzin Gyatso


Paths are Many

The purpose of any religion is to educate us about our spiritual unity. Everything that God created belongs to all of us and to our future generations. The entire world belongs to us, to be shared by us as one family of God. Nobody can put a label and say, "This is mine alone." All the resources of the world are given to us for our use, and we have a responsibility as caretakers on this earth.

Truth is one. That is why my motto has always been, "Truth is One, Paths are Many." The great sages and saints have experienced the same truth but only expressed it in different ways. It does not matter what name you give to the nameless Spirit. The only way to eternal peace and joy is to realize that Christhood or Buddhahood or Krishnahood. But when we miss that point, we fight in the name of Spirit.

There are so many things that can separate and divide us. We say, "I’m an American," or "I’m an Australian." "I am white," or "I am black." "I am fat," or "I am thin," "I am a boy," or "I am a girl." "I am Christian," or "I’m Hindu," or "I’m a Jew." My color may be different from your color. Her color may be different from somebody else’s color. We are all of various colors and hues because nature never makes duplicates. There is constant variety throughout the creation. But inside, we all have the same light; we are all made in the image of God. The same light is shining through many different colored lamps.

When we look at the outside alone, we will only see differences. But when we go a little deeper, we see the oneness. Don’t we say that "beauty is only skin deep." Scratch less than one millimeter beneath the surface and we all have the same color blood. So, if we see the difference, we are different; we are separate. But if we see the Spirit, we are the same. I am you, you are me; we are not different. We have all the differences and individual distinctions, but we are so much more. These definitions are what you use in order to function in this world. The challenge given to each and every one of us is to remember that oneness behind the outer differences.

God gave each of us a different costume, different makeup, a different role, in order to play our part in the world. But behind all these differences we are all one in Spirit. When we forget that and identify ourselves with the superficial differences, we lose sight of the spiritual oneness. So, religion asks us to get back to that original state. The very meaning of the word "religion" is to "bind back;" to get back to your original oneness.

When we argue about what is the right path and whose religion is best, there is something terribly wrong with our approach. Then, we are looking at the superficial side of religion and forgetting to go deep into its foundation. If we did go deep, we would find that all the religions ultimately talk about the same God, the same Truth; but somehow we ignore that common base and continue to fight over the superficial aspects.

It is time for us to recognize that there is one truth and many approaches. As long as you are a spiritual seeker, follow your spiritual path with your goal in mind. Don’t worry about other people’s paths. Whatever path you choose according to your temperament and taste, stay with that consistently while respecting all other paths. Though God can be approached through any form or name, if you keep changing from one idea of God to another, you won’t progress at all. You can’t travel on ten roads at the same time, even if they’re all going to Rome.

So, let us resolve not to fight in the name of religion. When the understanding comes that essentially we are one appearing as many, then all the other problems—physical and material—will be solved. Until then, they will never be solved because the basic cause for all the world problems is the lack of understanding of this spiritual unity. Wherever you go say, "We look different, but we are all one in Spirit. Hello, brother; hello sister." No religion is superior and no religion is inferior. We are all doing God’s work. We should learn to live together and work toward one goal: to share and care, love and give.

Sri Swami Satchidananda

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T
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posted April 06, 2012 02:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"More people have died in the name of God and religion than in all the wars and natural calamities. But, the real purpose of any religion is to educate us about our spiritual unity. It is time for us to recognize that there is one truth and many approaches. The basic cause for all the world problems is the lack of understanding of our spiritual unity. The need of the hour is to know, respect, love one another and to live as one global family."

Sri Swami Satchidananda

________________________

Let Us Regain Our Sanity
— by Swami Satchidananda


"Unity need not be brought. It is already there.
It has but to be recognized."


A beautiful poem composed by a well-known Tamil poet says, “Some will say Allah; some say Siva; some Vishnu. Some would say the Father in Heaven. Others would say it’s impossible to understand what it is – it’s just Nirvana.” In Sanskrit, Nirvana means nakedness.

The Hindu Upanishads say, “Nantah-pragnyam, na bahis pragnyam, nobhayatah-pragnyam, na pragnyana-ghanam, na pragnyam, naapragnyam…” It’s all in the negative. “Neither the inner consciousness, nor the outer consciousness, nor the unconscious, nor the sum total of consciousness.”

“Adrishtam, avyavaharyam, agrahyam, alakshanam, achintyam, avyapadesyam….” That which cannot be put into action, cannot be thought of, cannot be talked about; which you cannot grasp.” It all has to be in the negative because the unlimited One is being explained by a limited vehicle, the mind. So far nobody nor any scripture has ever clearly explained that something. Why? Because words are limited, the grasping mind is limited.

We all go to the same sea with our own little containers: some with a cup, some with a bucket, some with a barrel. We gather water and come home. I call my friend:

“Hey, did you get some seawater?”
“Yes.”
“How is it?”
“Oh, it’s in the shape of a mug.”
“How could that be? See, I got some and it’s in the shape of a bucket!”

Another will say, “You’re both fools. It’s only in the shape of a test tube.” They are all talking about the containers, not about the contained.

So then, what are we to do with all this? Should we deny these differences? Should we condemn these people? No. They all got seawater. Those who see the seawater and not just the container are called the seers. And for that, one has to transcend mental limitations. But even to work towards that, with what are we going to work? The mind. We cannot dispose of the mind. Then what are we trying to understand?

When we say, “truth is one, paths are many,” it is not that we are trying to bring uniformity or even unity. Unity need not be brought. It is already there. It has but to be recognized. We are One in spirit, but we are many in body and spirit. Variety is the spice of life.

Where is the room for religious wars?

Even if a path is a so-called wrong one, what will happen? You would go there, fall off and then climb on and come back in the right direction, would you not? Won’t that teach you the lesson that you took the wrong path?

Some people don’t want to accept the right path when someone else tells them. So some wrong paths are purposely kept there. Acharya Shankara beautifully says, “Even the wrongs are Divine. Prostrations to you, the anger, a form of God, and to passion, another form of God.” Why should God create anger and passion? Because some people want to take those paths also and learn some lessons quickly. Let them.

If we could understand this principle, where is the room for religious wars? World statistics say that more people have been massacred in the name of God and religion than even in the World Wars. If religion and God are going to do this, we don’t want religion then.

Years back I read in a news magazine some letters from Irish Catholic children. Little children, six or seven years old, writing, “If I kill at least 10 Protestants, God will bless me.” Horrible. We are insane and we want to make our children also insane.

So to regain our sanity is our purpose. Let us play with our varieties but not fight about them. Let us be together as beautiful children of that one supreme God. Wherever you go, spread this. And in your own life never negate anybody in the name of religion or race or color or creed. Know they are your own. If even a few people can change their lives like that, all their great efforts will be well rewarded. May God guide them, continue to give them health and strength to go to all the corners of the earth with this message. That is my sincere wish and prayer. Thank you for your patience. Om Shanthi Shanthi Shanthi.

Excerpts reprinted from Integral Yoga, Vol. VIII,
No. 5, with the kind permission of the editorial staff
of Integral Yoga magazine.
http://www.gratefulness.org/readings/sanity_swamiji.htm

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NativelyJoan
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From: Boston
Registered: Sep 2011

posted April 06, 2012 03:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NativelyJoan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
So, my question: do you feel that any of us have the right to tell someone that he/she is "not a real ___"?

When you yourself say that, if you do, who do you mean?

However, I also wonder if it's fair to say that someone isn't "a real ___" just because they're a different denomination.


Well my answer for the most part would be what T quoted. LOL.

But to add to that, I really don't understand what would give anyone the audacity to say anything in the context of "you are not what you think or choose to be." If someone believes them self to be a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Alien, Satanist, Fire Thrower, Spinx Catcher, whatever their beliefs, that's their universal right and choice. I actually consider religion to be one of the biggest failures in human evolutionary thought conceptually in our history as a civilization. Harsh I know, my apologies. Not because of the spiritual facets of those religions, but because of the destruction, persecution, oppression and bloodshed orthodox religious organizations, beliefs and decisions have caused in the history of our civilization which is truly shameful. In addition to the racism, xenophobia and cultural divisions they substantiate in order to control people within a society. Again, my apologies for being so blunt, but I have a bitter dissatisfaction with the unethical impact of many orthodox religions.

In spite of feeling so strongly about orthodox religions, I do believe that NO ONE has the right to tell any what to believe and how to practice their beliefs. Period. Even within the case of organized religions. Many of those ancient books are meant to be a guideline for how to live not an unquestionable testament. That's the individuals choice, based on their own discernment of what defines existence and their spirituality.

It's unfortunate that you've faced this kind of treatment RegardesP as a part of the Christian faith. People should be able to believe what they choose to believe without being alienated or ostracized for it.

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T
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posted April 06, 2012 07:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
VERY WELL SAID Joan!

quote:
I actually consider religion to be one of the biggest failures in human evolutionary thought conceptually in our history as a civilization. Harsh I know, my apologies. Not because of the spiritual facets of those religions, but because of the destruction, persecution, oppression and bloodshed orthodox religious organizations, beliefs and decisions have caused in the history of our civilization which is truly shameful. In addition to the racism, xenophobia and cultural divisions they substantiate in order to control people within a society. Again, my apologies for being so blunt, but I have a bitter dissatisfaction with the unethical impact of many orthodox religions.

I don't think that was harsh. Actually, very wise imo

*deleted the rest. just in case. it could have started an argument.

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emitres
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posted April 07, 2012 01:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for emitres     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i'm not entirely sure that i grasp the crux of your question - or rather, questions..

what do we think others mean when they say someone isn't a "real" _____ ? what do we mean when we define someone as a "real" anything...? whose definition are we using? are we basing our assumptions on behaviour we see or think we should see...ultimately does it really matter? a whole list of other questions pop up simply based on your initial statement

i do think that most of us have been guilty of that type of finger pointing at one time or another... i would go so far as to say it's human nature... we have a tendancy to define others by the differences and not the similarities... some of us "evolve" out of it sooner than others... i do believe this is why we still see violence done in the name of religion... those promoting such acts have simply not grown out of focusing on the differences... even within the same "core" groups we tend to define by that which separates... as an example, the local Anglican church in my community experienced a rather upsetting incident with their minister a number of years ago - ended up "losing" some of their members to other churches... a woman i know felt assured that many would start attending her Lutheran church because "as you know, Anglicans and Lutherans are really really similar"...when i asked why she thought some wouldn't go to the Catholic church or even the United church i was told that they were waaaay too different... she was positively taken aback when i pointed out that the Scripture was Scripture, no matter which building it was read in and fundamentally all Christian denominations are the same - differing only in frequency of some of their rituals...

as you pointed out, most organized religions have their tenets which, it is assumed, believers will adhere to...so,
if i follow religious dogma to the letter but have none of the feeling within my heart and soul, am i a real ____? and how can anyone besides myself judge that accurately?


my question to you Regardes would be who exactly was defining you as "not a real Catholic"? based on what?

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" Some define good as that which preserves, and evil as that which destroys; but destruction can be cleansing and purifying, for there is such a thing in both men and races as spiritual constipation, which comes from too much preservation of the status quo." ( Dion Fortune )

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