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Author Topic:   Astrology & Generalisations
PeaceAngel
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posted October 30, 2009 10:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PeaceAngel     Edit/Delete Message
It's rampant in this forum.

I think it's inevitable if you ask a question like, "What in my natal chart shows why I have a blackhead on my belly button?", that someone is going to say something along the lines of, "Astrology can only go so far".

I think it's also predictable that if someone says that, "All Ariens are idiots", that, where you may not get that much argument, it only takes one person (most likely an Aries) to say, "That's too general a statement".

There's a lot of generalisations that go on in the astro forum. There's also opposition to the obvious.

Which begs the obvious - which transits would make me post this thread?

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meta_4
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posted October 30, 2009 10:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for meta_4     Edit/Delete Message
Cheers!

I totally agree with you PA. Good thing that all Lions and Rams get along.

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pire
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posted October 30, 2009 10:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pire     Edit/Delete Message
anne ortole which warns that this weeks, words are flying or something along those lines

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Lara
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posted October 30, 2009 11:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lara     Edit/Delete Message
in that case Pire i think i'll ROARRRRRRRRR all weekend

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pire
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posted October 30, 2009 11:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pire     Edit/Delete Message
morning lara, going to work

check her article PA

g'day all

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Nightingale
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posted October 31, 2009 01:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nightingale     Edit/Delete Message
People can be morons shocker! Submit this news to the papers and they can take a break from reporting how we are murdering each other!

Only kidding, sort of.

Forgive me Peace Angel.

You are right, the thing about astrology is that it is difficult to accurately interpret so people go wide off the mark since there is no set path to travel (or travel away from).

People have no guidance except for from the occasional intervention from gifted astrologers (who are usually too busy in their own lives anyway to guide others).

It leaves astrological study for those able and willing to devote serious time to it.

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Nightingale
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posted October 31, 2009 01:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nightingale     Edit/Delete Message
As to transits - depends on your feelings and nature - but perhaps Mars in aspect to Mercury?

Maybe even Pluto transiting Mercury making you question?

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teasel
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posted October 31, 2009 10:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message
.

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katatonic
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posted October 31, 2009 12:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
in england nov 5 is guy fawkes. bonfires, fireworks and street parties abound. halloween is recognized but trick-or-treating was nonexistent in our neighbourhood till i started a little group with my daughter. nobody was prepared to treat so they pulled a lot of silly prank tricks and had a great time doing it!!

and how's that for off-topic!?

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Nine
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posted October 31, 2009 12:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nine     Edit/Delete Message
I thought Halloween (Dress up to scare the ghosts away) was of Spanish origins. Hmmm...

quote:
There's a lot of generalisations that go on in the astro forum.

We must start somewhere.

quote:
Which begs the obvious - which transits would make me post this thread?

Hmmm...Mars or Uranus to Mercury, perhaps.

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Glaucus
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posted October 31, 2009 12:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message

I thought that it was of Celtic origins?

Halloween (also spelled Hallowe'en) is an annual holiday celebrated on October 31. It has roots in the Celtic festival of Samhain and the Christian holy day of All Saints. It is largely a secular celebration but some have expressed strong feelings about perceived religious overtones.[1][2][3]

The colours black and orange have become associated with the celebrations, perhaps because of the darkness of night and the colour of fire or of pumpkins, and maybe because of the vivid contrast this presents for merchandising. Another association is with the jack-o'-lantern. Halloween activities include trick-or-treating, wearing costumes and attending costume parties, ghost tours, bonfires, visiting haunted attractions, pranks, telling scary stories, and watching horror films.

Historian Nicholas Rogers, exploring the origins of Halloween, notes that while "[s]ome folklorists have detected its origins in the Roman feast of Pomona, the goddess of fruits and seeds, or in the festival of the dead called Parentalia, [it is] more typically [l]inked to the celtic festival of Samhain or Samuin (pronounced sow-an or sow-in)",[4] which is derived from Old Irish and means roughly "summer's end".[4] A similar festival was held by the ancient Britons and is known as Calan Gaeaf (pronounced kalan-geyf).
Snap-Apple Night by Daniel Maclise showing a Halloween party in Blarney, Ireland, in 1832. The young children on the right bob for apples. A couple in the center play a variant, which involves retrieving an apple hanging from a string. The couples at left play divination games.

The festival of Samhain celebrates the end of the "lighter half" of the year and beginning of the "darker half", and is sometimes[5] regarded as the "Celtic New Year".[6]

The celebration has some elements of a festival of the dead. The ancient Celts believed that the border between this world and the Otherworld became thin on Samhain, allowing spirits (both harmless and harmful) to pass through. The family's ancestors were honoured and invited home whilst harmful spirits were warded off. It is believed that the need to ward off harmful spirits led to the wearing of costumes and masks. Their purpose was to disguise oneself as a harmful spirit and thus avoid harm. In Scotland the spirits were impersonated by young men dressed in white with masked, veiled or blackened faces.[7][8] Samhain was also a time to take stock of food supplies and slaughter livestock for winter stores. Bonfires played a large part in the festivities. All other fires were doused and each home lit their hearth from the bonfire. The bones of slaughtered livestock were cast into its flames.[9] Sometimes two bonfires would be built side-by-side, and people and their livestock would walk between them as a cleansing ritual.

Another common practise was divination, which often involved the use of food and drink.

The name 'Halloween' and many of its present-day traditions derive from the Old English era.[10][11][12][13

Origin of name

The term Halloween, originally spelled Hallowe’en, is shortened from All Hallows' Even – e'en is a shortening of even, which is a shortening of evening. This is ultimately derived from the Old English Eallra Hālgena ǣfen.[15] It is now known as "Eve of" All Saints' Day, which is November 1st.

A time of pagan festivities,[6] Popes Gregory III (731–741) and Gregory IV (827–844) tried to supplant it with the Christian holiday (All Saints' Day) by moving it from May 13 to November 1.

In the 800s, the Church measured the day as starting at sunset, in accordance with the Florentine calendar. Although All Saints' Day is now considered to occur one day after Halloween, the two holidays were once celebrated on the same day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween

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T
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posted October 31, 2009 12:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for T     Edit/Delete Message
It's been this way for awhile. One way of handling it is not reading certain threads that you know are going there.

Do you expect people to change the way they post here for you? It might be nice if certain people were a little more considerate in what they post, the amount and content, but then, if they don't think they are being annoying or whatever, then you can't expect much to be done about it. Some posters just don't seem to care how they are affecting the people around them and do what they want. They don't stop and think about what theyre doing.

This thing about astrology and generalisations has been brought up before, but I think some people don't realize they are doing it. It doesnt seem that too many posters are trying to be purposely annoying. After some time, you know which threads to open and which ones not to bother with.

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Valus
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posted October 31, 2009 01:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message
quote:

Some posters just don't seem to care how they are affecting the people around them and do what they want. They don't stop and think about what theyre doing.


Someone once told me that my outspokenness reminded her of the Beatles's song, "I Will"; specifically, the lyrics, "And when at last I find you, your song will fill the air. Sing it loud so I can hear you. Make it easy to be near you. For the things you do endear me to you.." We sing our songs loudly, and thereby attract the people who are right for us, and repel the ones who are not. And the more unique a person is, the more need they have of singing loudly, to attract the rare ones who will "get" them. Likewise, the more unique a person is, the more people they are going to offend and annoy by their differentness. Individuality is polarizing. That's how it goes. We can't ask them to be somebody different, just because who they are annoys one or two, or fifty people. As for these folks who generalize, let them sing loudly and attract one another, and the rest of us can go the other way.


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T
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posted October 31, 2009 02:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for T     Edit/Delete Message
Hi V. Well, i wasnt thinking of you or along those lines when i wrote that, but you make a good point.

and;

quote:
As for these folks who generalize, let them sing loudly and attract one another, and the rest of us can go the other way.

Yes, exactly.

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Lucia23
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posted October 31, 2009 05:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lucia23     Edit/Delete Message
I made this comment in a different thread, but I want to post it here as I think it's apropos to the topic.

quote:
But actually, even the most creatively interpretive practices of western astrology are premised on categorization--defining traits according to the positions of planets upon the native's first breath--and categorization is, well, GENERALIZING.

The whole is idea that, say, a particular Mars placement is associated with particular traits, and therefore everyone with that Mars placement (as just one example) will have those traits.

I find a lot of the objections on LindaLand (not yours or MVM's here, by the way, but some others in other threads) to be highly hypocritical, or at best theoretically flawed.

For example, the whole, "Synastry can show that [insert celebrity who is a stranger to you here] is your Soul Mate or in your Soul Family"....oh, BUT, "You can't use that to assume that you are 'Meant' to have a relationship." HUH. It's like deciding that astrology is totally deterministic and fate-based, except when actually tested against real life--and THEN it has to be rationalized. I don't think you can have it both ways.

I'm not sure whether it's possible to accurately generalize personality traits, life events, relationship compatibilities, or other dynamics within people's lives using astrology--but THAT IS ACTUALLY THE PREMISE OF ASTROLOGY. Exactly that!!

I am sometimes skeptical about astrology, although I find it very accurate sometimes (especially good old crude, simplistic, flippant Sun Sign stereotypes)....it's always inaccurate when badly practiced, like any science or art. Either way, I'm tired of people pretending it is something it isn't.

It is absolutely premised on the highly controversial idea that planetary placements cause events or bestow traits (maybe not "cause events", but make them likelier with certain energies). A lot of bright, educated people disavow that idea--and a lot of bright, educated people practice astrology. But that is its premise.



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Lucia23
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posted October 31, 2009 05:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lucia23     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
Likewise, the more unique a person is, the more people they are going to offend and annoy by their differentness.

Speaking of generalizations, I disagree that this is a rule--some of the most unusual and nonconforming people I know (in life, not online) seem to inspire and delight almost everyone, while others offend and annoy.

It has to do with intangibles, like the vibe they send out and their motivations for being different, I think--whether they are being honest, open-hearted, and fully themselves, or (in contrast) are smugly trying to prove a point or provoke a reaction out of people. Not that either is good or bad--I for one love edgy, cranky, snotty provocateurs--but some people are loved for their uniqueness.

And for myself personally, it's the conformists--those who tow the line and do what they think they ought to do because it's what's done, those who don't make the tough but rewarding choice to think originally for themselves, those who are not conscientious and not really liviong actively--who most annoy and offend. The whole banality of evil thing.

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blue moon
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posted October 31, 2009 06:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for blue moon     Edit/Delete Message
Many posts betray a lack of understanding the basic archetypes of astrology. Leaping into generalisations such a 'Geminis are ***** because my boyfriend Fred cheated on me' is the kind of results we are going to get. Point out the weaknesses of logic, you might not get a thank you. That would be those cases where there is no genuine desire to learn.

After the basics have sunk in we might move on to chart synthesis, this isn't always that easy so I can see how the "what aspect makes you .." cookbook threads come about. It is frustrating if you can sense that the person posting doesn't really want to be bothered learning about synthesis and are really asking, "Do you agree with me that Fred is an arsehole? please give me sympathy."

The endless synastry threads can be tiresome, as again, the desire to leap into complex analysis of aestroids with attractive sounding names is stronger than the realisation that it might be a good idea to know a bit about Pluto's orbit so you know without being told by someone else that it moves quite slowly, so just as your Venus is Square Fred's Pluto, so it is Square everyone's Pluto who is in the same class in your school.

Etc, etc, moo, moo.

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comica23
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posted October 31, 2009 07:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for comica23     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
I'm not sure whether it's possible to accurately generalize personality traits, life events, relationship compatibilities, or other dynamics within people's lives using astrology--but THAT IS ACTUALLY THE PREMISE OF ASTROLOGY. Exactly that!!

I was just thinking about the same. Astrology is actually that, and if not, then it wouldn't really be useful anyways.

The problem is, when someone doesn't realize that we can't generalize irresponsibly, which ends up misleading those who are trying to learn, and hurting those who are too sensitive.

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Lucia23
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posted October 31, 2009 07:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lucia23     Edit/Delete Message
Okay blue moon, but if you (generic you) believe in astrology--in the sense that you believe that the positions of planets in transit or at the moment of a person's first breath confer traits onto the person, or dynamics into a relationship or situation--then why would an aspect be less potent just because it was more common?

Venus square Pluto, for example. IF (and it is a big if), we see those entities as conferring a certain relationship dynamic, why would we suddenly decide that it doesn't apply just because you have it with not only Roger, but everyone Roger's age in the whole world?

I can't imagine a way to really learn to do a deep, comprehensive reading without isolating aspects and dynamics. And if we believe that no generalizations can be drawn from those aspects and dynamics, then we don't believe in Western astrology and we could never read charts.

Sure, some people simply use the chart as a jumping-off point for intuition...but I see so much rationalization here.

Do we, or don't we, believe that astronomical entities confer traits on people based on the place and time they draw their first breath? And if we do, is this a substantiable belief, or is it just yooyoo, outdated, flatearther psuedoscience?

I don't think we can or should have it both ways--as in, oooh, it's somehow stupid or wrong or crude to claim that Mars in Gemini confers certain traits on the native or that Mars-Venus confers a certain relationship dynamic on synastry--when ASTROLOGY IS BASED ON EXACTLY THAT IDEA.

It bugs me.

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Lucia23
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posted October 31, 2009 07:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lucia23     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
The problem is, when someone doesn't realize that we can't generalize irresponsibly, which ends up misleading those who are trying to learn, and hurting those who are too sensitive.

Sorry Comica23, I was ranting while you were posting, lol.

I agree, but many of us have different ideas about what's irresponsible generalizing.

For example, MVM has posted before that she dislikes simplistic generalizations based on Sun Sign, and that she doesn't relate to crude stereotypes about her Sun Sign (MVM: huge apologies if I am misrepresenting your position, and please correct me if I have it wrong.)

Whereas, having studied astrology on and off for over 20 years at this point, I find Sun Sign generalizations absolutely THE most useful thing I've found in astrology. When I meet someone in person, I can guess their Sun Sign (never Moon or ASC) with 90% accuracy, based on their look and vibe. (Incidentally, I have three Virgo woman friends who look a lot like MVM based on pics and have what I imagine is a similar vibe--beauty and delicacy combined with an earthy sense of humor.) When I choose how to "manage" someone based on their Sun Sign--other than online, where I lack all my Leo mojo, lol, and other than with Scorpios, who leave me mystified--it totally works!!

Liking Sun Sign astrology versus finding it too simplistic is just one of many disagreements that two people (both thoughtful and informed, and both of whom have studied astrology) can have about astrological practice.

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blue moon
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posted October 31, 2009 07:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for blue moon     Edit/Delete Message
The Venus/Pluto was just an example that came into my head. Maybe a bad one. Let's try instead:

If you are going to discuss the effects of an Eclipse in synastry, it helps to understand what is an eclipse.

My point is about running and learning to walk. Nothing more clever than that, and I sincerely hope it is not controversial. That would be truly disturbing.

Before anyone takes personal offence, let me conclude by saying we all make mistakes from time to time in calculation, interpretation, eclipses etc, when we are rushing and not paying due attention.

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Diana
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posted October 31, 2009 07:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Diana     Edit/Delete Message
They ALWAYS get aquas wrong. So wrong.

There are generalizations for a reason, however, because like trite sayings, a lot of them are true to a certain extent.

For example, I can always, and I mean always, tell an aries sun (especially the men) before I know their DOB. There is something to it.

Most people do not think I am an aqua. I get taurus, cappy, and scorpio a lot.

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Lucia23
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posted October 31, 2009 07:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lucia23     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
The Venus/Pluto was just an example that came into my head.

But if we believe a Venus-Pluto square confers certain energies in the relationship, why would that be discredited by us not knowing the details of Pluto's orbit?

Based on the premises of most Western astrological practices, the dynamic should be the same regardless of its frequency. If your Venus squares the Pluto of everyone in your class, then you have that dynamic in each of those relationships.

I think it's a good example. It's not necessarily walking versus running at all.

Raymond often makes the (I think, true and brilliant) point that many other astronomical bodies that we a) know little about or b) haven't even discovered yet might be even more significant in astrological practice than some of the bodies we use now (such as Pluto, as one example.)

EDITED: Most people here know little about astronomy--as far as I can tell, we have very few trained astronomers. AND contemporary Western astrology is largely based on outdated astronomy. So I'm not sure I see a strong argument for understanding what an eclipse is, astronomically, in order to properly practice astrology. It makes sense to learn what an eclipse is ASTROLOGICALLY, and to apply that...that is equivalent to knowing the relationship dynamics that a Venus-Pluto square allegedly confers in synastry, whether or not you are familiar with the orbits of Venus and Pluto and the frequency with which you'll have that aspect with people of a certain age.

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MoonWitch
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posted October 31, 2009 07:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MoonWitch     Edit/Delete Message
um... all Ariens are not idiots. Thanks very much.

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Lucia23
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posted October 31, 2009 07:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lucia23     Edit/Delete Message
Diana, I've accurately guessed the sign of my Aqua friends--they're the ones with those intense, clear eyes that are beautiful the way water-sign eyes are, but somehow icier, and the Aqua seems less emotional (even in the case of my weepy Aqua friend with the Cancer Moon, lol.)

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