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Author Topic:   it can't happen here, right??
katatonic
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posted June 11, 2009 02:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
i don't believe in joining "against" groups of any kind, but the apparent rise of the far right, racist parties in europe in answer to the perceived "immigration problem" needs something done about it.

any suggestions for POSITIVE action that might be taken?

this sort of thing is why i object to the divisive, fearmongering, finger-pointing nationalist paranoia sometimes perpetrated on this forum:

"1,000,000 United Against the BNP
Global
Basic Info
Type: Organizations - Political Organizations
Description: AGAINST THE BNP.

If you are against the BNP and its campaign of hate, join this group: 1,000,000 United Against the BNP.

The BNP and other Far Right parties appeal to the baser instincts of humanity, not to those that seek to lift us above hatred and conflict.

Please continue to spread the group's message by inviting your friends!

16th October 2008: Today will forever be a seminal date for this group - we have now reached 100,000 members!

2nd June 2009: Another milestone for we have now reached 200,000 members and the membership has been accelerating rapidly in recent weeks!

8th June 2009: A quarter of a million members the day after they won their two seats. A sign the British people will not tolerate the rise of fascism no matter what the circumstances. Well done people, we have grown by 50,000 members in 6 days.

Just in case you think we are being unfair in calling the BNP neo-Nazis and fascists, please read the below comparison. I've included some quotes so you can see what they stand for in their own words.
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

Nazi Party
We demand the union of all Germans in a Great Germany on the basis of the principle of self-determination of all peoples.

BNP
It believes that the indigenous peoples of the entire British Isles, and their descendants overseas, form a single brotherhood of peoples, and is pledged therefore to adapt or create political, cultural, economic and military institutions with the aim of fostering the closest possible partnership between these peoples.


Nazi Party
Only those who are our fellow countrymen can become citizens. Only those who have German blood, regardless of creed, can be our countrymen. Hence no Jew can be a countryman.

BNP
The British National Party stands for the preservation of the national and ethnic character of the British people and is wholly opposed to any form of racial integration between British and non-European peoples. BNP activists and writers should never refer to 'black Britons' or 'Asian Britons' etc, for the simple reason that such persons do not exist.

Nazi Party
Any further immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who have entered Germany since August 2, 1914, shall be compelled to leave the Reich immediately.

BNP
It is therefore committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent, the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948.

Nazi Party
We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press.

BNP
The BNP stands for the revolutionary principle that the printing presses and broadcast channels of the media must tell the truth in their reports.... we will create a new criminal offence of “The deliberate dissemination of falsehoods about an individual or organisation for financial or political gain” by any media outlet.

Nazi Party
All editors and their assistants on newspapers published in the German language shall be German citizens.

BNP
A separate danger to genuine democracy comes from the concentration of ownership and control of the mass media in too few hands, particularly when the hands concerned are those of foreigners whose primary loyalty is not to Britain.

Fascism
An inherent aspect of fascist economies was an economy where the government exerts strong directive influence. Fascist economies were based on private property and private initiative, but these were contingent upon service to the state. Fascism opposes many capitalist tenets, such as support of free trade and free international movement of capital.

BNP
The British National Party is pledged to the maintenance of a private-enterprise economy operating within a broad framework of national economic policy. It is opposed to international monopoly capitalism and to laissez-faire free trade and free movement of plant and capital.

Fascism
Fascist movements oppose any ideology or political system that is deemed detrimental to national identity and unity, such as communism and laissez-faire capitalism.

BNP
The British National Party is implacably opposed to Marxism and liberal-capitalist globalism, which undermine our standard of living, human and ecological welfare, freedom and national identity.

Fascism
Fascism tends to promote principles of masculine heroism, militarism, and discipline; and rejects cultural pluralism and multiculturalism.

BNP
The compulsory National Service system....would begin at the age of 18 with a period of basic training in the army. This would include full training with the citizens’ assault rifle. Conscientious objectors who refuse to undertake military service would be allocated other constructive work for the community, but would NOT receive THE CITIZEN'S RIGHT TO BE ARMED, or THE RIGHT TO VOTE.
Even if.... it proved to be possible to assimilate and integrate huge numbers of immigrants from other ethnic and cultural groups into Western societies without mayhem and bloodshed, we would still oppose it.

MEMBERSHIP (Lifted from their earlier website, they have never retracted this however)
Membership of the party shall be open only to those who are 16 years of age or over and whose ethnic origin is listed within Sub-section 2 (ii) The Celtic Scottish Folk Community; iii) The Scots-Northern Irish Folk Community; iv) The Celtic Welsh Folk Community; v) The Celtic Irish Folk Community; vi) The Celtic Cornish Folk Community; vii) The Anglo-Saxon-Celtic Folk Community; viii) The Celtic-Norse Folk Community; ix) The Anglo-Saxon-Norse Folk Community; x) The Anglo-Saxon-Indigenous European Folk Community; xi) Members of these ethnic groups who reside either within or outside Europe but ethnically derive from them.)<-----That's white to you and me.


"[t]he British National Party’s determination not simply to stop any further mass immigration into the British Isles, but also to reverse the tide which has transformed vast areas of our country out of all recognition over the last fifty years. We, as the sole political representatives of the Silent Majority of the English, Scots, Irish and Welsh who formed and were formed by our island home, have one overriding demand: We want our country back!"

"We would repeal the Race Relations Acts and all other restrictions on free speech in Britain.... We would abolish all departments, agencies, or other units of government whose sole and specific purpose is to deal with ethnic issues, grievances, or crimes.... We would abolish all laws against racial discrimination in employment and the government bodies associated with enforcing them."

"A Clause 28-style proscription against the promotion of racial integration in schools and the media would be introduced."

"This wicked, vicious faith has expanded from a handful of cranky lunatics about 1,300 years ago, to it's now sweeping country after country before it, all over the world. And if you read that book (the Koran), you'll find that that's what they want." - Nick Griffin

"It is more important to control the streets of a city than its council chamber." - Nick Griffin

“The electors of Millwall did not back a post-modernist Rightist Party, but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan “Defend Rights for Whites’ with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, POWER IS THE PRODUCT OF FORCE AND WILL, NOT OF RATIONAL DEBATE.” - Nick Griffin

"I am only going to represent the white people. I WILL NOT REPRESENT ASIANS. I will not do anything for them. They have no right to be in my great country." - Derek Beackon

"When we get to power OUR OPPONENTS WILL BE SWEPT AWAY like flies." - John Tyndall

"Very few people in Britain are aware of the huge influence over the mass media exercised by a certain ethnic minority, namely the Jews." - Nick Griffin

“The controllers of Hollywood, almost entirely Jewish. Some 'ANTI-SEMITISM' MAY BE PROVOKED BY THE ACTIONS OF CERTAIN JEWS THEMSELVES and thereby have a RATIONAL BASIS”. - Nick Griffin

"There is no doubt that hundreds, probably thousands of Jews were shot to death in Eastern Europe, because they were rightly or wrongly seen as communists or potential partisan supporters. That was awful. But THIS NONSENSE ABOUT GAS CHAMBERS is exposed as a total lie." - Nick Griffin

"[t]his BLOODY JEW [Alex Carlile MP] whose only claim is that his grandparents died in the Holocaust." - Nick Griffin

"There's not a European country the Jews haven't been thrown out of. When it happens that many times, it's not just persecution. THERE'S NO SMOKE WITHOUT FIRE." - Mark Collett

"Without the White race nothing matters [other right-wing parties] believe that the answer to the race question is integration and a futile attempt to create "Black Britons", while we affirm that NON-WHITES HAVE NO PLACE HERE AT ALL AND WILL NOT REST UNTIL EVERY LAST ONE HAS LEFT OUR LAND." - Nick Griffin

"Yes, Adolf went a bit too far. His legacy is the biggest problem that the British nationalist movement has to deal with. It just creates a bad image." - Nick Griffin

"There is a STRONG, DIRECT LINK from Oswald Mosley to me." - Nick Griffin

“The TV footage of dozens of ‘gay’ demonstrators flaunting their perversions in front of the world’s journalists showed just why so many ordinary people find these CREATURES so repulsive.” - Nick Griffin

"Churchill was a ******* **** who led us into a pointless war with other whites [the Nazis] standing up for their race." - Mark Collett

"He's a ******* traitor." - Mark Collett on the Prince of Wales

"The Royals have betrayed their people. When we're in power they'll be WIPED OUT and we'll get some Germans to rule properly." - Mark Collett

"A FRIENDLY DISEASE because blacks, drug users and gays have it." - Mark Collett on AIDS

"Hitler will live forever; and maybe I will." - Mark Collett

"The sick minds who would have us believe that Jews were gassed at Auschwitz are completely twisted." - Tony Lecomber

"Asians are rubbish, and that is what WE ARE GOING TO CLEAR FROM THE STREETS." - Derek Beackon

"Those responsible for creating this multi-racial hell hole must face trial and pay the ultimate penalty." - Nick Griffin

"AIDS Monkeys.... bum bandits.... faggots." - Mark Collett on homosexuals

"Racial laws will be enacted FORBIDDING MARRIAGE between Britons and non-Aryans: medical measures will be taken to prevent procreation on the part of all those who have hereditary defects either racial, mental or physical." - John Tyndall

"Mein Kampf is my Bible." - John Tyndall

"[t]here will be an unanswerable case when the day for the great clean up comes, to IMPLEMENT THE FINAL SOLUTION against these sub-human elements by means of the GAS CHAMBERS" - John Tyndall

"There's a difference between selling out your ideas and selling your ideas. And the British National Party isn't about selling out it's ideas, which are your ideas, but we are determined now to sell them. And that means basically to use these salable words.
As I say, 'freedom', 'security', 'identity', 'democracy', nobody can criticise them, nobody can come at you and attack you on those ideas: they are salable. Perhaps one day, once by being rather more subtle, we got ourselves into a position where we control the British broadcasting media, then perhaps one day the British people might change their minds and say, 'Yes, every last one must go'. Perhaps they will one day, but if you offer that as your soul mate to start with, you're going to get absolutely nowhere. So, INSTEAD OF TALKING ABOUT RACIAL PURITY WE TALK ABOUT IDENTITY." - Nick Griffin addressing the Ku Klux Klan

"Voluntary repatriation. Isn't that EASIER TO SELL than compulsory repatriation for all?" - Nick Griffin

"I honestly don't hate asylum seekers - THESE PEOPLE ARE COCKROACHES *and they're doing what cockroaches do because cockroaches can't help what they do, they just do it, like cats miaow and dogs bark." - Mark Collett *This is what the Hutus in Rwanda called the Tutsis of which 800,000-1 million were killed

"Well apparently didn't they get a lot of dentistry and plastic surgery."
- Rotherham BNP's Marlene Guest, referring to horrific Nazi experiments on Jews and others during World War II.

"The idea that the Black African Bishop Sentamu, the Asian Muslim MP Shahid Malik, the part-Turkish Boris Johnson and the Jewish Lord Goldsmith have anything to teach the indigenous English about St. Georges Day is absurd." - John Lee Barnes

"When these Asians go out looking for a victim, they don't go looking for Asian victims. They don't go mugging Asian grandmas, they don't go stabbing each other, they don't go trying to solicit sex off little Pritesh or little Sanjita, they go straight to the whites because they are trying to destroy us and they are the racists." - Mark Collett

“All black people will be repatriated, even if they were born here. ” - Nick Griffin

"Black culture is totally inimical to the mental and spiritual development of young white people, encouraging laziness, lack of ambition in worthy pursuits, preoccupation with the trivial and the banal, appalling manners and absence of respect for others". - John Tyndall

"WHITE WORKING CLASS SCUM will be swept away by a future BNP government." - BNP councillor Simon Smith

"THE RICH ARE GENETICALLY SUPERIOR TO THE POOR." - Tony Lecomber

"I'm no apologist for WHITE WORKING CLASS SCUM." - BNP councillor Simon Smith

"Rest assured, all those HOMEGROWN TRATORS who have taken part in the war against our indigenous rights will one day be held to account for their crimes." - Nick Griffin

“I want to see Britain become the 99 per cent genetically white country she was just eleven years before I was born, and I want to die knowing that I have helped to set her on a course whereby her future genetic makeup will one day not even resemble that of January 1948, but that of July 1914. Nothing will ever turn me from working towards that final vision.” - Nick Griffin

"Rape is simply sex. Women enjoy sex, so rape cannot be such a terrible physical ordeal... [it] is like suggesting force-feeding a woman chocolate cake is a heinous offence." - Nick Eriksen

"Honestly now, would you prefer your kid growing up in Oldham and Burnley or 1930's Germany? It would be better for your child to grow up there." - Mark Collett

"Meanwhile, the indigenous side in the low-to-medium level civil war brewing in this country is getting its training. . .Its all going to get very messy." - Nick Griffin's blog on the BNP website

"It's clearly worth talking in terms of SIX-FIGURE SUMS to persuade families to go"- Nick Griffin, the Times, April 19, 2007

“We live in a country today which is unhealthily dominated by an EXCESS OF SENTIMENTALITY TOWARDS THE WEAK AND UNPRODUCTIVE. No good will come of it.” -Jeffrey Marshall (senior organiser for the BNP’s London European election campaign), 2009 after the death of Ivan Cameron.

“There is not a great deal of point in keeping these people alive after all.” Jeffrey Marshall again referring to Ivan Cameron.

"The capitalist free traders, the Marxists and organised Jewry have declared war on the white man, not just in Britain but in every nation on the planet". - Nick Griffin

"We don't think the most overcrowded country in Europe, can realistically say, 'Look, you can all come and all your relatives'. When the Gurkhas signed up - frankly as mercenaries - they expected a pension which would allow them to live well in their own country." - Nick Griffin, 12 May 2009

Nick Griffin addressing a KKK meeting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OSzAtxnAJU

Nick Griffin denying the Holocaust on the Cook Report http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X8QQwU00Jk&feature=related

Nick Griffin denying he denied the Holocaust on the Cook Report http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-G2x9lotx8&feature=channel_page

The BNP canvassing for the EU and council elections 2009. http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=82021815938&h=17rjV&u=vcxm0&ref=mf
The BNP's organiser admits that membership is limited to white Europeans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuyLVayDOHo&feature=player_embedded
Marlene Guest repeating the claims of 'Did Six Million Really Die?', a Holocaust denial book by Richard Verrall of the National Front. It's been thoroughly refuted by historians and claims things such as the Holocaust is used as a tool to exterminate the 'white race': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Did_Six_Million_Really_Die%3F "



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katatonic
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posted June 11, 2009 03:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
it seems obvious to me that we need to be careful not to foster too much govt - or too little - on either side. but how do we do that? by blasting the "other side" and drawing lines in the sand? by shooting the people we don't approve of? or by working FOR something?

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Dervish
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posted June 11, 2009 05:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dervish     Edit/Delete Message
I expect if the dominant parties could become less corrupt and less dysfunctional, the problem would take care of itself. But that's not going to happen, is it?

Something else is that instead of seeming to keep bending over backwards, burdening citizens in favor of immigrants and bad guys, that would cause a lot of justified resentment to evaporate, too. But then, people--especially in politics--tend to be all or nothing, so I suppose it's either the BNP or bending over backwards, no matter how much it hurts.

IOW, I've got nothing.

Ok, here's one idea someone came up with...a very small one, but if you must do something, this would probably at least annoy the BNP:
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=6078&page=1#Item_1

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Quinnie
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posted June 12, 2009 07:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Quinnie     Edit/Delete Message
Kat thats why all people should be involved in government decisions, the law etc. It's too much power to give to one group of people.
It is disguised racism to me.
and a very appealing way to legitimise racism. I think thats a fair comparison (nazi to BNP).

Get rid of the celebrity media and start educating through the medium of media. At schools etc.

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jwhop
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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted June 12, 2009 09:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
Well, I can certainly understand the angst of Socialists.

After all, European voters just told the Socialists to go suck a tailpipe and drop dead.

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katatonic
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posted June 12, 2009 12:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
actually they did nothing of the sort. but the BNP IS making inroads in the depressed north. so that's your kind of party, eh, jwhop? preserve the whiteness of the isles, deport everyone who is brown, yellow or just plain jewish! wonderful! full marks for hitler protege of the year. i guess membership in the klan is not necessary to sympathize with white supremicists.

quinnie it may be disguised to some but the quotes above leave one in NO DOUBT about the racist agenda of these guys. i have seen the bovver boys in action and it is not pretty.

personally i hope that white people will continue to marry each other to a certain extent, i think the world would be a sadder duller place without the variety of colours that now exist. but this is pandering to the fears of the working classes and fingering foreigners and coloureds in just the way the jews were fingered in prewar germany. of course this party has been around since then too, and they become more popular from time to time.

and the idea that britain could survive without international trade! they seem to forget her wealth came from all those colonized coloured countries (including america in the 15th-18th centuries) and that there are not enough natural resources to support the population!

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Quinnie
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posted June 12, 2009 01:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Quinnie     Edit/Delete Message
Kat
If it's not about creed or race it's about class, education, age... the list goes on. Superiority/Inferiority complexes, ideas about entitlement, greed contribute to prejudiced thinking by anyone... lefty or righty.

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katatonic
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posted June 12, 2009 01:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
exactly - though in britain it seems so simple to narrow it down to race, as if there were never any brown people in england in ancient history (if only imported by the romans)...and in america the racism is so disguised by knocking people's point of view...!

i first got to england in 74 just about the time they had a referendum over the common market situation and it actually looked for awhile like there might be a NO vote, ie britain might shoot itself in the economic foot by isolating itself from its nearest trade-partners. imagine the british isles with no recourse to foreign food supplies and products! i actually spent many hours doing just that, imagining a "self-sufficient" britain, which would be extremely hard to create. just not enough land to feed the people for a start...

of course there was the commonwealth but most of those countries are so far away that the costs would have been prohibitive. america has managed to be isolationist in the past due to its vast resources, but we are rapidly closing in on them with the population continuing to grow.

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jwhop
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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted June 12, 2009 02:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
Actully, that's exactly what European voters did when Socialists lost seats/power all across Europe in elections a few days ago.

I know how upsetting that is to Socialists everywhere. Socialists don't take rejection well.

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katatonic
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posted June 12, 2009 02:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
jwhop, you are absolutely right that the socialists are losing ground. usually what happens when the economy tanks on a party in power...as happened here last year! however the turnout is abysmal:

"Early turnout in French EU elections higher than expected

Politics 6/7/2009 2:47:00 PM



PARIS, June 7 (KUNA) -- Early turnout in French elections for the European Parliament on Sunday was slightly higher than expected, accroding to data published by the Interior Ministry shortly after midday.
Voter turnout was given at 14.81 percent after four hours of national balloting, compared with a 13.65 percent turnout in the preceding European elections in 2004.
Many observers had predicted that turnout would be considerably lower in the vote on Sunday, because of voter disaffection. (pickup previous) jk.rk KUNA 071447 Jun 09NNNN "

and therefore not particularly indicative of the general trend in people's viewpoint....though they have lost ground the "center" is basically holding , some to the left and some to the right. it appears also that the vote is splintering and thus giving ground to extremists of both colours. if you think this is a good thing just think 30's germany. wunderbar, eh?

but then this is just what i have been saying as you moaned about all those socialist prisons in europe...it is up to the voters. and if the swelling of the ANTI nazi league in britain is any indication(in response to the inroads made by the BNP)these results will create more voter involvement and more opposition to the farthest reaches of the political spectrum.

so really they have done no such thing. a small portion of the population has come out and despite losses on the left the right is certainly not in charge. yet.

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katatonic
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posted June 12, 2009 02:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
can't get the chart to reproduce but this link will show the balance of power is still pretty even
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/elections/euro/09/flash/html/eu.stm

and that is a good thing, isn't it...though it is worrying to see the nazis coming out in england.

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jwhop
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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted June 12, 2009 04:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
The Socialists lost seats and lost political power as a result of fair and open elections in Europe.

That's the truth and your attempt to spin the facts won't fly...unless you can show with clear and convincing evidence that those who wanted to vote for Socialists were prevented from voting.

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katatonic
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posted June 12, 2009 05:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
please, jwhop, pay attention. i didn't say they hadn't lost ground. and i have been saying ALL ALONG that they have "fair and open elections in europe". you are the one who calls every "socialist" country a prison ruled by despots! this is proof that you were wrong.

the socialist programs were VOTED IN and they can be voted OUT as well...according to the wishes of the voters. so now there is a BALANCED european parliament as the link with the chart shows. the pendulum swings as always.

it was in "socialist" england that an important decision about joining europe took place by referendum. when was the last time we had a national referendum here?

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jwhop
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posted June 12, 2009 09:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
So, tell me how that referendum to join the EU is working out for Britons.

Last time I looked, the EU had unelected apparatchiks making up laws in Brussels for all Europeans to follow.

Tell me how the vote on the EU Constitution worked out and since it didn't work out at all because it requires a 100% yes vote by all the nations in the EU....by what authority are those unelected Soviet style bureaucrats making up laws in Brussels.

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pire
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posted June 13, 2009 10:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for pire     Edit/Delete Message
do you believe that it's different in the US, i mean the "unelected apparachiks"?

in french we say:

blanc bonnet et bonnet blanc

quote:
by what authority are those unelected Soviet style bureaucrats making up laws in Brussels.

who do you talk about when you say those unelected Soviet style bureaucrats?

european institutions have all been accepted one way or another by citizens from each countries. either with a referendum like "do you want to join the EU and this is how it work, take it or leave it" style.

or in parliament, where representatives, elected, have decided to join in. so ultimately, europe is not a dictature.

i'm still curious to know who you are talking about when you talk about those unelected Soviet style bureaucrats

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katatonic
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posted June 13, 2009 12:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
if they are unelected then how did they get sent to the eu parliament the other day by election? you conveniently ignore that the economy has basically tanked globally. several of those eu countries happen to be doing better than most. england has an unelected pm at the moment who is hanging on for dear life. swings and balances. of course the labour party is in angst right now, just like the republican party here! they are perceived to have blown it - but amazingly different tactics on either side had the same result....

tell me how do you think a tiny country like england would survive without its neighbours' cooperation? given that the colonial era is long dead and gone and they can't really suck the resources out of all those old subordinates any more? the eu will probably fall apart at the seams one day in the not too distant future, or be seriously revised, but not everyone gets everything right all the time and at the first try as you apparently do. that is the only explanation i can see for you expecting perfection from everyone else...

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katatonic
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posted June 13, 2009 12:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
"The Socialists lost seats and lost political power as a result of fair and open elections in Europe" - jwhop on this page.

so where are these unelected jerks? i think i mentioned the BNP sent 2 people to the european parliament this week? by ELECTION?

as for spinning facts, i agreed that they have lost seats. but funnily enough there are still about as many socialists as rightwingers sitting there! losing ground is not the same as disappearing from sight. NOW THERE IS MORE BALANCE> YOU SHOULD BE HAPPY, IF YOU BELIEVE IN DEMOCRACY, TO SEE BOTH SIDES HAVING A VOICE.

but i am beginnning to think you won't be happy till the neonazis are in the vast majority.

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VenusDeLionesse
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posted June 13, 2009 11:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for VenusDeLionesse     Edit/Delete Message
right........left.......left......right.....

left.......right.........left.......right......

e...i....e....i...oooooooooooooo


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Dervish
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posted June 14, 2009 02:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dervish     Edit/Delete Message
I thought the BNP WAS socialist. Right wing "national" socialist, but still about centralized control over the economy (not necessarily micromanaging it, but still going further than Obama has in interfering in their own way), mandatory military service (which is further than Obama has gone with "forcing people to volunteer," btw), etc.

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katatonic
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posted June 14, 2009 12:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
venus, that is basically what i am trying to say. and what i have BEEN saying. the socalled socialists in europe are still voting, still free to come and go, and still suffering from the SAME ECONOMIC PROBLEMS AS OTHER COUNTRIES and other political systems. they are not little ussrs or china, and in fact those places are no longer what they were even 10 years ago.

"left right, left right, there's none of the enemy left, right?"

and europe has voted in a pretty split-down-the-middle way as the chart shows. it's not a matter of anyone whupping anyone's ass, but unfortunately it IS a matter of lines being drawn in the sand which is the scary part.

dervish - the BNP are fascists. who believe in a free market economy WITHIN britain but excluding foreign trade and capital...and converting people with their fists, boots and clubs; by their own admission in the quotes up top there. and if you are not white you will be deported even if you are a 3rd generation brit. very pretty.

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jwhop
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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted June 14, 2009 01:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
Who could possibly live in Europe and be unaware the so called European Union Constitution was rejected by French and Dutch voters?

Who could live in Europe and be unaware the ratification of the European Union Constitution requires a YES vote by a majority of citizens in every member nation?

Who could live in Europe and be unaware the schemers attempted to merely change the name of the Constitutional document to the Lisbon Treaty in attempts to fool people as to what they were voting on?

Who could live in Europe and be unaware the voters in Ireland voted no and rejected the Lisbon Treaty...European Union Constitution.

There is no constitution in effect in the EU. There is no lawful authority for an unelected herd of Socialist bureaucrats to be drafting laws, rules, policies and procedures which must be followed by European citizens.

But that's exactly what is happening in the EU.

THE THUG O'Bomber's favorite Marxist Socialist, George Soros...the felon George Soros advised the so called leaders of the EU to proceed exactly as if the EU Constitution had been ratified...even though it wasn't.

Now, I seriously doubt a referendum submitted to the people of all the so called EU nations to join the European Union would get a majority YES vote if held today.

As for the Socialists taking a licking in the recent elections; even the Socialists admit they got their tails kicked and lost seats and power...though they wouldn't phrase it exactly that way.

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katatonic
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posted June 14, 2009 01:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
yes, they lost seats and power.now the balance of power is balanced, which no political party has the grace to "like". isn't it time we stopped this whole team-politics farce?

and i guess it is up to the europeans to put their feet down and demand a vote if they want one. but if these people are not elected, who elected them and sent them to the eu parliament last week?

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jwhop
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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted June 14, 2009 03:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message
Excuse me katatonic. How could you be so uninformed about how policy, rules, laws and procedures are being made in the EU?

The bureaucrats in Brussels are in full control of the process and the elected members to the EU rubber stamp whatever they dream up...if it's necessary to get their approval at all.

This from Rense and let it be known I'm no fan of Rense. However, when they're right, they're right and this is one of those times.

Beware The Secret Heart
Of The European Union
From Charlotte Iserbyt
dumbdown@blazenetme.net
8-2-5

This is a brilliant expose of the European Union and what WE can expect in the US if we do not kill FTAA. No wonder Gorbachev referred to the EU as "The New European Soviet"! This MUST be used in time to fight FTAA.

Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt
Deliberatedumbingdown.com


From Al Burns

The article below was written by Ashley Mote, British member of the EU Parliament. In this article we can see the inevitable long term results of our (?) Congress' passage of WTO, NAFTA, CAFTA, and (if we don't stop them) the Free Trade Area of the Americas. As Mote points out in this article, the numerous apparently innocuous treaties over the years ALL were leading up to the ultimate loss of control by individual countries.

Please distribute this information as widely as possible and as rapidly as possible. WE MUST STOP FTAA!


Beware The Secret Heart Of The EU
By Ashley Mote
8-1-5

The EU's mindset is committed to the French vision of a social Europe. The catastrophic economic consequences over decades is largely ignored. Double-digit unemployment and sluggish growth is blamed on anglo-saxon market forces.

Amongst the political elite in Brussels, the fight over the constitution was about securing a social Europe. It was about entrenching control, not liberating enterprise.

The president of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, has publicly sided with the creation of an enterprise Europe. He realises that only by fundamental change can the EU's discredited Lisbon agenda be revived and a thriving knowledge-based economy achieved.

But the truth is - and he knows it - the incumbent bureaucracy is too strong, too deep-rooted, and too committed to a social Europe. They know, and he knows, that they will still be there long after he is gone.

We all know the EU is run by bureaucrats. But that's only the half of it. We all know the EU was created by European politicians 50 years ago. But that's only the half of it. We all hope the European Parliament has injected a degree of democratic accountability. But that's not even the half of it.

Facts coming to light in recent weeks paint a picture far worse. None of us knew the half of it.

Peter Le Cheminant wrote to The Daily Telegraph at the beginning of June 2005.

He said: "As a young and junior civil servant I had a ringside seat at the birth of the EEC. France and Germany had senior civil servants of high calibre with no small opinion of their own abilities. Both [countries] had lost a war, as they saw it, through the stupidity of their political masters.

"Small wonder then that they should have devised structures that gave real power to themselves, and minimised the roles of the member states. Their underlying doctrine was that democracy was all very well,

Mr Le Cheminant has done us a great service. His letter is of huge importance, and confirms what has long been suspected. The very structures of the EU were created to ensure that the electorates and their elected politicians did not have their hands on the levers of power.

Since then a succession of new treaties has further consolidated power in the hands of officials. Today, the EU is a unitary system of government, not only run by anonymous officials, but also controlled by them as well. There is a difference, and it is crucial.

Even the EU's public face - the unelected commission - is part of the charade. Power does not lie with them. It lies with the senior staff running their departments, entrenched by some 3000 working groups and committees on which no elected MEP sits. Indeed, until recently, the very existence of this mountainous bureaucratic support structure was almost unknown.

Intense questioning has revealed that more than half of these internal working groups and committees are active at any one time. Their membership is largely, if not entirely, made up of civil servants from member states and invited 'experts' and 'consultants' from the subject areas being considered for more regulation.

How else could the EU become so involved in the minutiae of everyday life in 25 member states? How else could they get so much wrong so often? On reflection, it was obvious. But now we have the evidence - and even more evidence of their secrecy.

Despite being elected MEPs, those of us investigating the internal workings of EU bureaucracy have been denied access to the lists of members of these groups, with one exception. Only one agenda has come to light. Once we started asking probing questions the shutters came down.

We cannot clarify the functions of these working groups and committees. We do not know who sits on them. We cannot see their agendas. We do not know what decisions they have taken, nor on what grounds. We do not know what their budgets are, how they are financed, or who approves their costs.

Indeed, we do not even know what powers they have been given, nor by whom. And we cannot get rid of them.

But one conclusion is certain. This is where the real power lies. Here is the beating heart of the European Union. Not just obscured, it has been carefully constructed to operate in secret.

We have arrived at the worst of all possible situations. The idea of a European superstate is now being rejected by electorates allowed a vote. Yet we are in serious danger of being left with the structures and methods to govern it. Without upheaval, the stranglehold remains.

This consequence of past treaties, and now the discredited EU constitution, are clear. Strip away the thousands of words and the real purpose of the constitution is obvious. The EU would no longer be the servant of the member states. It would have become their master.

Every previous treaty was a small step along that road. Europe has a long history of failed attempts to unite it. Each has ended in disaster of one kind or another. Each has produced some form of political or military ruination - sometimes both.

Considerable courage and wisdom is needed to avoid another such outcome. Rejection of the constitution has thrown up a new web of conflicting interests and pressures. But they are unlikely to stop the EU's well-developed, rigid and clandestine system of government by bureaucrats blindly moving us towards serious trouble.

President Barroso, former prime minister of Portugal and head of the commission, is charged with defending the EU in public, and articulating its plans. But he is not fully in control. He is no elected prime minister, not just in terms of legitimacy, but also in terms of decision-making.

The other 24 commissioners, each appointed by the other member states, are not his cabinet in any sense that the British might understand. Like Barroso, they are figure-heads. They take the flak in the public arena, and make announcements decided for them by their senior staff, with the guidance of the secret committees.

Of course there will have been endless discussions, arguments and disputes before each decision. But all behind closed doors.

Professional civil servants, especially 'les enarques' from that unique French institution L'Ecole Nationale d'Administration, cannot be under-estimated in such an environment. They have careers and the system itself to protect. Such considerations always come first.

These people are greatly skilled in the black arts of manipulating politicians to get what they want, even if that means hanging their minister out to dry in public if he proves uncontrollable.

Of course, officially above the commission sits a Council of Ministers, made up of ministers from member states. It meets from time to time, theoretically to determine policy. But the council is just more of the same elaborate illusion of accountable government.

Ministers regularly sign agreements on arrival at a meeting, confirming decisions they have supposedly come to make!

The European Parliament sits below this vast superstructure, even less of an obstacle to manipulative bureaucrats. It may be the EU's only elected institution, but it is nothing more than an elaborate and expensive fig-leaf, designed to create an illusion of accountable democracy. A condescending pat on the head for voters held in contempt.

The EU parliament holds no proper debates. Members are told when they can speak, and for how long. Backbenchers rarely have more than a minute, rarely more than once in a four-day sitting, and never to a crowded chamber. Backbenchers' opinions are of little account.

The parliament can neither initiate nor repeal legislation. It has direct control over neither the collection nor allocation of public funds. The most it can do is make proposals to the commission and try to amend legislation put before it. Usually that just means slowing it down. Anything rejected will return in a slightly different form later.

Such as it is, the EU's parliament has a built-in majority in favour of the social market. It is the repository of an unspoken agreement between the left and the multinationals. This 'understanding' appears to have the backing of the bureaucratic elite, not least because it reflects the French method of supporting national business interests in a social market economy.

In effect, the left has said to the multinationals: you can have your markets stitched up for you, if we can indulge ourselves in endless social engineering. Big business has agreed. The result is a largely supportive parliament both from the left and right of the political divide.

In such an environment the endless cataract of EU legislation can be no surprise. A week of committee meetings and a week of parliamentary plenary sessions are allocated for every month except August. It is assumed all that time will be filled with discussion and voting on new legislation.

Basic questions about necessity and cost never arise. Eventually, of course, the EU will have legislated itself to a standstill.

So, if the parliament is a charade, why is it so well attended? In a word - money. If an MEP fails to push his electronic buttons during more than 50% of the votes, his allowances are cut. No wonder MEPs have been described as little more than a highly paid monkeys pressing buttons for bananas.

In one-hour sessions, which always precede lunch, hundreds of votes are taken at breakneck speed on long lists of resolutions and amendments. The purpose is to give democratic legitimacy to what passes for law in the European Union. Voting is so fast MEPs read the papers next day to understand what they decided, and to find out how the commission is interpreting the results.

This torrent of new law feeds the once 'obedient' civil servants back in Britain. They are having the time of their life, enforcing millions of words of regulations and directives from Brussels. Of course they enthuse about the EU. It has - much to their satisfaction - effectively given them a bureaucrats' charter.

Two pages of EU regulation quickly become 20 pages of detailed enforcement - the so-called 'gold-plating' syndrome, unique to the UK.

And if there's trouble, the government minister concerned merely shrugs his shoulders and blames Brussels.

This huge explosion in the bureaucratic enforcement of EU regulations has created a dangerous detachment of the law-making process from accountable government in Britain. It has also highlighted fundamentally different attitudes to the rule of law in the UK and the rest of the EU.

In the past, the British generally upheld and respected the rule of law, at least in part because we knew we could change it at any time. With very few exceptions, a new government could repeal or amend any UK law immediately it took office.

But in the EU, and many continental countries, there is much less respect for the law because it can be difficult to change. Civil servants are in control, and they hate change. Little wonder, then, that ordinary people on the continent tend to ignore laws they don't like, rather than seek change. The EU is beyond salvaging. It should be put out of its misery, or left to those countries that wish to conduct their affairs in this way.

Footnote: Ashley Mote was elected to the European Parliament in June 2004. He is one of ten MEPs elected from the South-East of England region. He sits in the parliament as an independent and has seats on the Constitutional Affairs and Budget Control Committees.
http://www.rense.com/general67/bewarethesecretheart.htm

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katatonic
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posted June 14, 2009 06:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
“As for the future, I shall remain in the fight, but not right in the centre of the battlefield. Nothing is more important that restoring our right to govern ourselves. We will win. It is inevitable. And I suspect the EU knows it is ultimately doomed, if only because it does not command popular support, and never can." adrian mote,, 2009

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katatonic
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posted June 14, 2009 07:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
as to a referendum today, that is an interesting idea. in fact periodic referendums should be mandatory in my view. i realize the eu is a piece of bureacratic horse dung that should never have happened but i believe one thing ashley mote said is true, it will not prevail.

anyway you got my interest, jwhop. i don't actually spend a lot of time perusing the ins and outs of the european parliament.

seems ashley mote is stepping down and claiming he is doing so to help bring down the bureacrats in europe. but the following hints he might have other agenda. i found it on wikipedia but many of the quotes are from his own website and other checkable sources...

"Ashley Mote (born 25 January 1936, London) is a non-inscrit Member of the European Parliament (MEP) for South East England.[1][2] An outspoken critic of fraud in the European Institutions, he himself was convicted of benefit fraud in 2007 for which he served a nine-month sentence and was described by the trial judge as "a truly dishonest man". The scandal ignited a debate as to how an MEP could receive a prison sentence, yet keep his seat in the European Parliament; there are currently moves afoot to review the legislation.

Mote was elected in June 2004 as a representative of the United Kingdom Independence Party for South East England. He had campaigned to clean up sleaze in Brussels.[5]

He purports to expose and research fraud in the EU, although Mote himself has served time in prison after been found guilty of benefit fraud. He has recently published J'Accuse...!, an anti-EU pamphlet in which he claims migrants are eight times more likely to commit crime than "indigenous people". According to Mote, "Jamaican Yardies are selling crack cocaine in Hereford and Cambridgeshire, Chinese Snakeheads are operating in Lancashire and Norfolk, Albanians are running prostitution in Hampshire, Colombians control a cocaine network in Essex."[6]

After having the whip withdrawn as a result of his fraud trial, he became an non-inscrit MEP. In 2005, he joined with Hans Peter Martin and Paul van Buitenen in the loose unofficial grouping Platform for Transparency which promoted accountability in the European Union. In 2006, he gave evidence to the House of Lords enquiry into the EU's financial management of public funds. In 2007, he transferred his allegiances to the new far-right group Identity, Tradition and Sovereignty, whose members included Jean-Marie Le Pen and Alessandra Mussolini[7]; the group, branded as "fascists"[8] ceased to exist on 14 November 2007.

On 9 May 2009 Mote announced that he would stand down as an MEP at the next election.[9

In 2004, the Department of Work and Pensions brought criminal charges against Mote for allegedly claiming £32,000 in income support and £35,000 in housing benefit from Chichester District Council over a six-year period without declaring his monthly earnings of £4,000. Mote was committed for trial at Chichester Crown Court on 27 April 2004. He would face nine charges of false accounting and one charge of making a false representation. On 16 June, at a plea and directions hearing, he pleaded not guilty to the charges and a trial date was fixed for 15 November.[10] The following month, the UK Independence Party withdrew the whip from Mote on 15 July 2004 after learning from an article in the The Daily Telegraph that he faced trial; Mote had failed to inform his party of the impending charges.[11]

On 4 October 2004 Mote sought to claim immunity from prosecution on the basis of his status as an MEP. His application was heard by Judge Aikens at Lewes Crown Court. He held that Chichester Crown Court was obliged to stay proceedings until the European Parliament had exercised its right to waive immunity. On 3 February 2005 the Attorney General applied to the Parliament whose Committee on Legal Affairs unanimously granted the waiver on 20 June and gave its approval to proceedings continuing in England.

On 5 April 2005 Mote appealed the Parliament's decision to the Court of First Instance (CFI). He gave no notice of his application to the Attorney General, nor to Judge Aikens at Lewes Crown Court, meaning that the British Government was unable to intervene in the case. Mote later applied on 15 December 2006 to the CFI for an interim order suspending the Parliament's decision pending the outcome of their decision. This was rejected on the basis that the condition of urgency was not satisfied.[12]

Following the Parliament's waiver, the Attorney General applied to lift the stay imposed by Judge Aikens. The application was heard by Judge Gross on 17 October 2006 who granted the application, ruling that the desirability of proceeding with the trial outweighed any potential injustice to Mote that might result if the CFI were to annul the decision of the European Parliament to grant a waiver.[12]


[edit] Trial
The case returned to England and a further 16 counts of fraud were added to Mote's original indictment. He complained once again to the European Parliament on 4 May 2007 that this constituted a "contempt", but the Parliament remarked that he had no immunity to defend and took no action.[13] A second application was made to the CFI for interim measures, but this was also rejected.[12]

A four-week trial commenced at Portsmouth Crown Court in July 2007; proceedings against Mote were led by government lawyers who had taken over the case from Chichester District Council in late 2005. The court heard that Mote had claimed housing and council tax benefits between 1991 and 1993 following the collapse of his business. He began to claim benefits again from 1996 but failed to declare income from various enterprises including a cleaning company and gambling on the currency markets.[14]

In total, Mote spent just short of £73,000 between 20 February 1996 and 29 September 2002 to fund a "luxury lifestyle", regularly dining out and holidaying in France, The Caribbean and the United States. He was also accused of pocketing "substantial sums" through his interests in two firms.[15] Joanna Greenberg QC, prosecuting, said that from 1996, Mote had filled out benefit claim forms stating that he was unemployed and had no financial assets, even though at the time he had business interests in an international marketing firm called Tanner Management and another company, JC Commercial Management.[16]


[edit] Conviction
On 17 August 2007 Mote was found guilty by a jury of 21 charges of deception by falsely claiming £65,506 in benefits, and acquitted of a further four charges. Judge Richard Price warned him to expect a custodial sentence, but allowed bail on condition that Mote surrendered his British and diplomatic passports, as well as providing £50,000 in sureties.[17]

He was sentenced on 31 August to nine months imprisonment to be served in Ford open prison, West Sussex. During sentencing, Judge Price said that Mote, "a truly dishonest man"[18], had executed a "carefully-planned scheme of dishonesty" and had taken "a great deal of trouble to cover [his] tracks[19], adding that "[t]o say that this case has ruined you is an understatement, it is a tragedy." Mote's defence counsel described his client as a Walter Mitty character and admitted that the sentence was a "massive fall from grace".[14] Mote applied for the third time to the CFI for relief against the impending imprisonment, highlighting the urgent nature of his request. This was also rejected by the CFI on 22 November 2007.

Reacting to the sentence, the leader of the UK Independence Party, Nigel Farage, said he was "disgusted and horrified" at the leniency of the sentence.[14] If Mote had been jailed for more than one year, he would have lost his seat in the European Parliament, which could have been reassigned to another representative. Farage added that if "Mote had a shred of integrity left, he'd resign."[14]

Mote was released from prison in November 2007 under the Government's tagging scheme.[20]"

his own defense counsel described him as a walter mitty character. apparently he was being paid by the eu parliament while doing time in jail.

very interesting case and allegations indeed. i shall have to look into it a bit more. but i am not surprised to find corruption in politics! aren't the two interchangeable in definition?

as to who is the culprit and who the "victim" i wouldn't be surprised if both sides were both. nothing surprises me anymore when it comes to politicians. but it is interesting that ashley mote only went into politics when his business had failed and he apparently got tired of writing books about cricket. i wonder if the paycheck had anything to do with his candidacy?

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