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Author Topic:   Why Obamacare Will Be Struck Down
Randall
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posted June 12, 2012 03:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Supreme Irony: Would a 'single payer' health care plan be less vulnerable to the court than the Affordable Health Care Act?

by Jeff Greenfield

If the Supreme Court does decide to strike down any or all of the Affordable Health Care Act, the implications will range from the political to the medical to the economic.

For me, such a decision will take its place among the more supremely ironic of unintended consequences: a law designed to avoid greater government intrusion into health care will have been invalidated as an unconstitutional overreach of government power, while a far more intrusive approach would have clearly passed muster.

How could this be possible? Welcome to the wonderful world of constitutional interpretation.

Let’s begin by imagining that Congress and the president decided to adopt a genuinely radical health care plan—the kind in place in most of the industrialized world. They decide on a “single-payer” system, where the government raises revenue with taxes, and pays the doctor, hospital and lab bills for just about everyone.

Put aside the question of whether this is a good idea, or an economically sustainable notion. The question is: would such a law be constitutional?

The answer, unquestionably, is “yes.” In fact, it would be the simplest law in the world to enact. All the Congress would need to do is to take the Medicare law and strike out the words “over 65.” Why is it constitutional? For the same reason Medicare and Social Security are: the taxing power. Its reach is immense. During World War II, the maximum income tax rate was 91 per cent (it was paid by few, thanks to loopholes, but still). The same Congress that could abolish the estate tax could set just about whatever limit it chose; it could impose a 100 percent tax on estates over, say, $5 million. If it decided that a national sales tax was an answer to huge budget deficits, it could impose one at whatever level it chose.

(The remedy, of course, lies with the voters, who would be more than likely to send a powerful message at the next election, which is why the lack of constitutional limits on the taxing power do not lead to confiscatory rates.)

[Related: Romney pushed for individual mandate in Mass.]

So why is Obama’s health care plan, with a far more modest use of government power, in serious jeopardy? It’s because the key element in the plan—the “mandate” to purchase health insurance or pay a penalty—was not based on the taxing power, but on Congress’s power, under Article I, Section 8, to regulate interstate commerce. And that power, while broad, has its limits...even if those limits are murky.

Up until the late 1930s, those limits were more like shackles. The Supreme Court repeatedly struck down sate and federal laws regulating wages, hours and working conditions on the grounds that the commerce power only touched the distribution of goods, not their manufacture. But once the court changed its mind—after an effort by FDR to “pack” the court with additional justices had failed—there seemed to be no limits at all. Back in 1942, the court said the government could stop a farmer from growing his own wheat for his own use, because of the potential effects on the wider market. But in 1995, for the first time in decades, the court said “no” to a federal law based on the Commerce clause—one banning firearms within school zones—because it could find no reasonable connection between the law and interstate commerce.

[Related: Biggest insurer to keep parts of health law, regardless of ruling]

In the health care case, the questioning by several justices indicated strong skepticism about the mandate. If the commerce clause can compel a citizen to buy a specific product—in this case, health insurance—what couldn’t it do? Could it, as the now famous question had it, compel citizens to buy broccoli on health grounds? (Well, a defender might have pointed out, the government does compel taxpayers to “pay for” all kinds of things in the form of government subsidies, such as ethanol. It could clearly do the same with a broccoli subsidy.)

As a policy matter, it’s clear that a “mandate” is a much more modest extension of government power than a single-payer system. The citizen would choose which insurance to buy; in fact, under the law, a citizen could choose not to buy any insurance, and pay a penalty instead. The whole premise of a mandate is to spread risk as widely as possible; as Mitt Romney used to note when he was defending the Massachusetts plan he designed, the mandate to prevent “free riders” from benefitting from treatment once they are sick or injured. That’s why the genesis of the idea came from such conservative roots as the Heritage Foundation.

[Related: Two-thirds of Americans want health law struck down]

As a constitutional matter, however, the idea of compelling a citizen into a specific economic activity raises alarm bells. It evokes the specter of some bureaucrat inviting himself into your home, while checking the shelves to make sure you’ve purchased multigrain cereal and cage-free eggs. (It’s a specter the administration tried to avoid by arguing that the health-care market is unique, one in which we are all likely participants at some point, voluntarily or otherwise. Unlike life in a Robert Heinlien libertarian “utopia,” hospital ERs do not have the power to say to an uninsured heart attack or auto accident victim: "you chose not to buy insurance? Sorry...have a nice day.”)

So, for its effort to design a health care plan that moved in the direction of less government intrusion, the Obama administration faces the distinct prospect of having its signature domestic program shot down for exceeding the limits of the constitutional power it did choose to use.

I somehow doubt the White House will appreciate the irony.
http://news.yahoo.com/supreme-irony--would-a--single-payer--health-care-plan-be-less-vulnerable-to-the-court-than-the-affordable-health-care-act-.html

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Emeraldopal
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posted June 12, 2012 05:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Emeraldopal     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-kirsch/the-houses-latest-health-_b_1589600.html

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Randall
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posted June 20, 2012 11:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A poll of former clerks and attorneys who spoke before the Supreme Court say it will be struck down. We will know by the 28th or before.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/insider-poll-legal-experts-now-expect-supreme-court-123441478.html

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Ami Anne
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posted June 20, 2012 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank God. O'Bomber and his ilk are trying to grab the biggest power grab in the history of the US. What makes it the worst, is they cry racism for any criticism such as this reporter asking O'Bomber a legit question on immigration. It is NOT racism. It is O'Bomber's failures as a person and a president.

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katatonic
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posted June 20, 2012 01:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
very curious, what reporter and what legit question you are talking about, ami?

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Randall
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posted June 21, 2012 01:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We will have our answer in a week!

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jwhop
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posted June 21, 2012 02:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So many ways to look at this Randall but if O'BomberCare slips by the Supreme Court intact there will be absolutely no check left on the power of the federal government.

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Randall
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posted June 21, 2012 03:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We shall see. I remain optimistic.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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Randall
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posted June 22, 2012 06:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Legislators are going to vote down whatever is left once the Supreme Court is finished. And, of course, if it survives and Romney wins, he promises to work to completely repeal it.

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Ami Anne
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posted June 22, 2012 07:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jwhop:
So many ways to look at this Randall but if O'BomberCare slips by the Supreme Court intact there will be absolutely no check left on the power of the federal government.

This shows HOW important it is to have a good president who picks the judges. A fool like O'Bomber will ruin the Supreme Court. Then, when we need them, we will have nothing.

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Lonake
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posted June 28, 2012 08:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lonake     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Word is that ruling will be announced today.

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Ami Anne
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posted June 28, 2012 09:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lonake:
Word is that ruling will be announced today.

Big day!!!!!

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Lonake
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posted June 28, 2012 10:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lonake     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sounds like the mandate is gonna go in as a tax, not commerce.

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AcousticGod
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posted June 28, 2012 10:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's done. This ought to buy Roberts some credibility.

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Randall
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posted June 28, 2012 11:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's not a tax simply because the IRS enforces the penalty; however, the Supreme Court has spoken. This monstrosity will have to be killed the way it was birthed. We have the votes. Until then, I am religiously opposed to it (since when can you opt out of a "tax" due to religious conviction).

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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Randall
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posted June 28, 2012 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If anyone is sincere in their religious convictions against this mandate, contact me on how to opt out. In my opinion, the best way is through an Affidavit that you would include with your tax return. I will be constructing one if Romney doesn't win. If Romney wins, there will be no need.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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Ami Anne
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posted June 28, 2012 12:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
If anyone is sincere in their religious convictions against this mandate, contact me on how to opt out. In my opinion, the best way is through an Affidavit that you would include with your tax return. I will be constructing one if Romney doesn't win. If Romney wins, there will be no need.



We need Romney so badly, now

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Ami Anne
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posted June 28, 2012 12:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am more depressed than the night O'Bomber got elected. I could not have foreseen how much this "it" named O'Bomber could take down this country.

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shura
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posted June 28, 2012 01:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:
This shows HOW important it is to have a good president who picks the judges. A fool like O'Bomber will ruin the Supreme Court. Then, when we need them, we will have nothing.

Now is good time to remind those still operating under the delusion of a two party system that Bush appointed Roberts.

Randall, if I thought Romney could or would undue the damage inflicted by his predecessors, I'd support him in a heartbeat. But it will be more of the same. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Nafta, Patriot Act, Obamacare ... I can only imagine what Romney will bring us.

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Ami Anne
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posted June 28, 2012 01:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Damn
I think Roberts got bought off. I am hearing that theory on the radio, but he had to have been bought off. Nothing else makes sense imho.

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Randall
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posted June 28, 2012 02:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Our representatives have already said they will overturn it. Romney said he will sign it.

Speaking of Affidavits, they work well if anyone has a problem with the IRS. If it's your word against the IRS, the IRS will generally win. Even Tax Court is slanted in the IRS' favor. But once you issue an Affidavit, it changes the balance of power and pouts the burden of proof on the IRS. They are required to accept an Affidavit as truth unless and until they can show solid evidence to the contrary. This isn't pie-in-the-sky or some kind of a scheme. It's the way the IRS operates.

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Ami Anne
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posted June 28, 2012 02:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The only thing that brings me peace is that you reap what you sow. Roberts will reap what he did, as will O'Bomber. If you try to deal with it yourself, with your own anger and pain, you just get depressed.

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shura
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posted June 28, 2012 02:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
They've all been bought, Ami. It's politics. Those who are not true believers, have been bought.

ok, Randall. Obama said a lot of things. The people believed. They wanted change, and understandably so given the evils of the Bush adminstration. Now the people want change again ... very understandably so. And round and round we go.

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katatonic
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posted June 28, 2012 02:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
romney will not be king. he will be considered a puppet, it has never been more blatantly obvious.

and there will be plenty of people voting those repubs out .. after all the wrong "certainties" (including the title of this thread) i have seen on this forum i wonder how anyone has the guts to sound so sure of their predictions these days?

nothing is written in stone. esp the future.

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shura
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posted June 28, 2012 02:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
'The only thing that brings me peace is that you reap what you sow."

It brings you peace? I realize this is a political forum, but that doesn't sound to me like the Christian approach. In fact, I'd say it's repulsive.

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