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Author Topic:   "Anybody not willing to accept the results of an election is a danger to democracy!"
Randall
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posted November 15, 2016 05:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
-- Hillary Clinton

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teasel
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posted November 15, 2016 06:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That would include Trump, who didn't accept that Obama won the election, four years ago. He tweeted it himself.

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Randall
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posted November 15, 2016 09:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Trump didn't smash cars.

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StubbornVirgo
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posted November 16, 2016 03:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for StubbornVirgo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by teasel:
That would include Trump, who didn't accept that Obama won the election, four years ago. He tweeted it himself.

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StubbornVirgo
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posted November 16, 2016 03:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for StubbornVirgo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
Trump didn't smash cars.

No, he groped women.

I would rather have my car smashed than be sexually assaulted.

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Bluejay
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posted November 16, 2016 04:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bluejay     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A few tweets from Trump during the 2012 election when Obama won the electoral votes, but was briefly behind in the popular vote before the California totals came in......

Hillary won the popular vote by over 1,152,000 votes and counting. This is the second time in the last 5 elections that the popular vote winner lost due to the electoral college. That's two out of the last three Republican wins.

The electoral college needs to be changed from a winner takes all system, to a split electoral vote. That way the less populated states are still involved in the process, but it means that every person's vote counts. As it stands, the voters in about 10 swing states decide our president, and people in solid red or blue states are not equally represented. That's not democracy.

I will personally be involved in making sure this is changed in the near future. Some states already have the option of splitting the electoral votes, and hopefully more states will allow the same option. Otherwise it will require a constitutional ammendment, which the Republicans will fight because they are outnumbered by Democrats.

The Republicans only won one election out of their last three wins by actually getting more votes, and that is a rigged system that does not equally represent every voter.

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StubbornVirgo
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posted November 16, 2016 08:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for StubbornVirgo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bluejay:
A few tweets from Trump during the 2012 election when Obama won the electoral votes, but was briefly behind in the popular vote before the California totals came in......

Hillary won the popular vote by over 1,152,000 votes and counting. This is the second time in the last 5 elections that the popular vote winner lost due to the electoral college. That's two out of the last three Republican wins.

The electoral college needs to be changed from a winner takes all system, to a split electoral vote. That way the less populated states are still involved in the process, but it means that every person's vote counts. As it stands, the voters in about 10 swing states decide our president, and people in solid red or blue states are not equally represented. That's not democracy.

I will personally be involved in making sure this is changed in the near future. Some states already have the option of splitting the electoral votes, and hopefully more states will allow the same option. Otherwise it will require a constitutional ammendment, which the Republicans will fight because they are outnumbered by Democrats.

The Republicans only won one election out of their last three wins by actually getting more votes, and that is a rigged system that does not equally represent every voter.


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jwhop
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posted November 16, 2016 10:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The electoral college should never be abolished or changed.

That would leave less populous states powerless in national elections. Citizens of Wyoming..for instance, would have no voice in presidential elections. All political power would be concentrated in New York, California, Texas and perhaps Florida.

What a rotten, disgusting, contemptible idea. I'm happy to see Barbara Boxer exiting the US Senate. It's long overdue.

Of course, those ignorant of Constitutional principles don't understand that the US is a REPUBLIC, not a democracy. The entire intent was to diffuse power, not concentrate political power in the hands of the few.

You will find this principle enshrined in the Constitution at Article IV Section 4:

"The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government.........."

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Randall
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posted November 16, 2016 10:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Allegedly groped. The evidence for violence and property damage is incontrovertible. And do you agree with those chanting and holding signs for Melania to be raped?

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Bluejay
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posted November 16, 2016 11:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bluejay     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jwhop I should've known that you would come along and throw in the old "we're not a democracy".

you said...
"The entire intent was to diffuse power, not concentrate political power in the hands of the few."

No actually the intent was to put the political power in the hands of the few-the electoral college, because they thought the average person was too stupid to pick the president themselves.

I was not suggesting that the electoral college be completely abolished, but it should be changed. The electoral votes should be proportionally distributed by the number of votes a candidate won in each state. That ensures that each state is still involved in the process, and also that every vote is actually counted.

With the current system votes are weighed more heavily in certain states than they are in others, and as in this election over a million votes are thrown in the garbage. If the Democrats were the ones winning elections based on the outdated electoral college system, you'd be screaming like a banshee to change it. But that's the only way Republicans can win the election so of course you like the electoral college.

It is not even stated in the constitution that all of the electoral college votes have to go to one candidate, so states can choose to divide them. I personally believe that the electoral votes should be proportionally divided, because to divide by district would be taken advantage of through gerrymandering. Nothing would change in states like Texas that are so badly gerrymandered. That's why I think a constitutional ammendment outlining how the votes are divided would make the process more fair.

The way electoral votes are distributed now is voter disenfranchisement on a massive scale, and no American should be okay with that.

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Randall
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posted November 16, 2016 02:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know what universe you're living in, but on this Earth, the Democrats are always more favored to win, and it's an uphill race for Republicans.

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etherealsaturn
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posted November 16, 2016 06:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for etherealsaturn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't care if Donald Trump tweeted that the Earth is flat. It's twitter. I think he realizes he would have to stop with the impulse tweeting, now that he's president, he also isn't going to have time to anymore.

If it were the other way around, the sore losers would be saying the same thing. I remember thinking the same way before I realized how the electoral college works.

Hillary Clinton accepted the results of the election. It's the people who don't like Trump not accepting it. They don't have to either. But it doesn't change the outcome, and the protesters aren't going to change anything.

Donald Trump didn't immediately accept the election before it happened, and he had every right not to. Of course he would be wary given the fraudulent acts that were taking place throughout the entire election and days leading up to it.

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jwhop
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posted November 17, 2016 11:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Jwhop I should've known that you would come along and throw in the old "we're not a democracy".

Yes, the truth will out. The United States is not a democracy. The founders considered democracies to be the most vile form of government on earth.

"Democracy is the most vile form of government. ... democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property: and have in general been as short in their lives as the have been violent in their deaths."
— James Madison (1751-1836) Father of the Constitution, 4th President of the U. S.

“We are a Republic. Real Liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of Democracy.”
— Alexander Hamilton (1755-1804) Lawyer, Secretary of the Treasury & Secretary of State

“A simple democracy is the devil's own government.”
— Benjamin Rush (1745-1813) Founding Father& signer of the Declaration of Independence

“Democracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy; such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure, and every one of these will soon mould itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit, and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable [abominable] cruelty of one or a very few.”
— John Adams (1797-1801) Second President of the United States and Patriot

“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. It is in vain to say that democracy is less vain, less proud, less selfish, less ambitious, or less avaricious than aristocracy or monarchy. It is not true, in fact, and nowhere appears in history. Those passions are the same in all men, under all forms of simple government, and when unchecked, produce the same effects of fraud, violence, and cruelty. When clear prospects are opened before vanity, pride, avarice, or ambition, for their easy gratification, it is hard for the most considerate philosophers and the most conscientious moralists to resist the temptation. Individuals have conquered themselves. Nations and large bodies of men, never.”
— John Adams (1797-1801) Second President of the United States and Patriot

"Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine percent."
— Thomas Jefferson, Author of the Declaration of Independence, 3rd President of the U. S.

That's the reason they diffused power between the states and federal government (read the 9th and 10th Amendments.) And in the federal government itself, between the Co-Equal Legislative, Executive and Judicial Branches.

Education is a wonderful thing, especially in the precepts, concepts and principles under which their government was formed.

A Mrs. Powel of Philadelphia asked Benjamin Franklin, "Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?" With no hesitation whatsoever, Franklin responded, "A republic, if you can keep it."

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teasel
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posted November 17, 2016 11:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by etherealsaturn:
I don't care if Donald Trump tweeted that the Earth is flat. It's twitter. I think he realizes he would have to stop with the impulse tweeting, now that he's president, he also isn't going to have time to anymore.


It has nothing to do with impulse tweeting, and everything to do with his own real response, to an election (that he didn't accept, four years ago).

He also constantly insisted that this one was rigged, long before it even happened. He wasn't prepared to accept the outcome, before anyone even voted.

Clinton is winning the popular vote by an even wider margin, and she appears to have accepted the outcome. Not a danger to democracy. She would have been much better.

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Randall
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posted November 17, 2016 01:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's hilarious seeing Democrats say the election was rigged--after they really did rig it against Sanders and after they were caught on video talking about how they were going to commit voter fraud.

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etherealsaturn
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posted November 17, 2016 04:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for etherealsaturn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by teasel:
It has nothing to do with impulse tweeting, and everything to do with his own real response, to an election (that he didn't accept, four years ago).

He also constantly insisted that this one was rigged, long before it even happened. He wasn't prepared to accept the outcome, before anyone even voted.

Clinton is winning the popular vote by an even wider margin, and she appears to have accepted the outcome. Not a danger to democracy. She would have been much better.


The question of whether or not the candidates will accept the outcome of the election is a formality. I don't understand why it's said so repetitively that that Trump claimed the election was being rigged before it even happened - like it's so bizarre to think it might be happening. The entirety of the year leading up to the election was filled with suspicious behavior that would indicate the possibility of the election being rigged.

Sanders being snubbed by the DNC, WikiLeaks, Clinton given a heads up on questions before interviews and debates, media personalities playing for the Clinton side(unbelievably evident bias), the way the polls were being conducted, video proof of Clinton camp encouraging violence at Trump rallies to taint his image, video proof of Clinton camp encouraging ripping up voter registrations.... Please. With all of this shady information, I wouldn't accept the outcome of the election immediately either.

With all that - Trump still managed to win a rigged election

To go back to the OP "Anybody not willing to accept the results of an election is a danger to democracy!" -Hillary Clinton.

Trump is a danger to democracy when he doesn't accept the election results. But, those who don't accept Trump winning are not a danger to democracy. Huh?

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Bluejay
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posted November 19, 2016 01:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bluejay     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
I don't know what universe you're living in, but on this Earth, the Democrats are always more favored to win, and it's an uphill race for Republicans.

Yes it is an uphill race because there are more Democratic leaning citizens in the US, although they are less likely to participate in elections. The electoral college allows Republicans to win, even though they are not getting the majority of votes. How is that fair that the party that gets less votes is the winner? Your Cheeto Jesus said so himself.

I'm not arguing the results, I'm just fed up with the electoral college system that ignores the majority of voters and gives more importance to votes in certain less populated states. The majority of the campaigning went into only 6 out of 50 states. The people that are peacefully protesting are reminding Trump and the Republican party that our voices still deserved to be heard.

I'm a native Texan, a state that is widely believed to be solid red, but it's only due to gerrymandered districts. Most Texas Democrats I know don't even bother to vote because they feel it's pointless, which only compounds the Republican majority.

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Bluejay
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posted November 19, 2016 01:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bluejay     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine percent."
— Thomas Jefferson, Author of the Declaration of Independence, 3rd President of the U. S.

I don't need the history lesson jwhop....You remind me of a Libertarian that I know that pulls out his pocket constitution every chance he gets so he can make failed attempts to make people feel stupid. It's his only joy in life, and needless to say he's a huge a$$hole.

As it stands now Hillary has nearly 1,500,000 more votes than Trump. So it's not okay that 51% take away the rights of the other 49%, but it's okay that Trump is in the minority of votes and he's in charge?

The current electoral college system is a problem. The electoral college has only superseded the popular vote 5 times in the history of the US, and twice in the last 5 elections. It was never changed because it was considered an anomaly, but not anymore.

Hillary will win the popular vote by nearly 2,000,000 votes, so all of the Trumpkins, stop acting like you won a mandate! Wrong!

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Randall
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posted November 19, 2016 01:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A state like CA will always vote Democrat and has the population and commerce of a small country, so that's why the electoral college IS reflective of the equal representation that should prevail in a Republic.

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Randall
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posted November 19, 2016 01:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What's pointless are those protests. If it were the other way around and Trump got the popular vote, do you think Dems would care? Of course not. So, it's just what we in the South call a hissy fit.

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etherealsaturn
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posted November 19, 2016 05:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for etherealsaturn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
What's pointless are those protests. If it were the other way around and Trump got the popular vote, do you think Dems would care? Of course not. So, it's just what we in the South call a hissy fit.

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Randall
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posted November 21, 2016 01:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you want to talk about the popular vote, voters overwhelmingly chose Republican: The House, the Senate, and Governorships all across the nation.

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