posted September 03, 2014 01:17 PM            

I have Saturn in 12th natally already but in synastry it's also in someone's 12th house, with their Sun in my 12th (about an 11 degree difference). My Saturn in their 12th exactly opposes their Moon, their chart and 12th house ruler. My 12th ruler Moon is 2 deg square his Saturn in my 11th.

In case it's against your morals, pointing out that the male here is in an open marriage, happily married and with me having considered the two an "Aww" of a good match over time as well, from a distance. We (and they) met eleven years ago at an event where I was more in the invisible crowds if you like, but when he serendipitiously found me online this July, he said he remembered me from back then already, and that he was a bit worried that if he didn't get in touch straight off I'd disappear again. His wife chose to make the marriage an open one about a year ago, whatever your opinions of timings.

His Neptune is 1 opposite my Sun/Moon MP and exactly square Moon, too. Mercury's 1 conjunct my ASC from 12th and my 3H Mercury sextile his Sun so theoretically communication should work on that level.

Trouble is the obfuscation or fuzziness or vagueness when it comes to feeling that I'm getting enough information out of him, without having to emphasize something for 3-5 emails. Or to go on and on about something in different ways until he finally gets it or gives in and tells me what I was asking for from the start.

If that's 12th house in effect, how do people work with that? I know it's my Saturn and it presumably wants structure or to have a grasp of things what possible, and there's his Neptune squaring my end as well, so any advice?

His situation is so unusual and the first for me to deal with something like that I find myself requiring extra clarity also for that, but really? I have to drag clarity out of him and emphasize how important it is for a month before I get what's good and allows me to relax? I.e., perfect honesty or full disclosure about the situation, should I choose to get involved in the whole thing when possible. Work and time abroad for both seem to happen first if nothing else, and if I don't get the whole picture later when the timings might work, it seems difficult to want to engage in what seems nothing but nebulous from my end.

Composite.

Regrettably I can see how Saturn in 12th may work on one level. He has a very public history online and I'm able to read back on things that probably wouldn't be much my business this relatively early on of knowing him. More than that, since his situation is what it is and I do happen to have a brain, I could determine who else he'd talked to or already seen in relation to the open marriage thing from his recent additions to Fb. The one seen at least four times this summer has their Sun conj his IC, but again, if his relationships (or cases friended although they weren't lover-matches) are his 12th house "Secret From Most People", my Saturn knows the name of some in any case. Also the DOB of that biggest "competition", if you like.

It wouldn't have seemed appropriate to start talking about that two weeks into the acquaintance, but for someone like me to even potentially step into an open relationship, I need it to be fully open and clear from my perspective as well. I need to know if he's seeing another woman the weekend before he'd supposedly meet me, to be able to say "Yeah, you're not coming near me if you've just seen somebody else, and NOT TOLD me about it, highly preferably BEFORE going to see someone else" if I want to. It's perhaps a lot more about that than if he is seeing some others (with flare-ups of jealousy as exceptions), the total honesty about what he's doing being a requirement for me to be able to relax. Otherwise there's an issue of him as if lying to me, through omissions or otherwise, and I react badly, or niggle at the issue until he relents and tells me what I would have preferred to hear from the start. Or then he possibly at some stage makes a break, but that's irrelevant for now.

Anyway. Point was that I "needed" to know who on his FB was "one of the gang" or in on his secret life, even if he'd probably consider it little of my business who else the women were. I have no say in who he picks, no veto like the wife, so the least I required was knowing when something happened and how many women were in his life, IF I was to be part of the lot, for any control whatsoever at my end. Because he has his life with the family, and so far things seem to work around that and his worklife, so I fail to see what control or say a woman has in any of it if their answer isn't no. Otherwise he has all the power and makes all the decisions, who he picks or who he doesn't. Other than indulging my curiosity there seems little sensible reason to get involved, unless we get emotional about each other, no matter how we'd have appreciated each other from the start.

If Sun in my 12th is supposed to highlight things for me, can say it lead to some "growth" or re-evaluations of some things early on already, although more so in relation to work or life in general. I'm sure the association between us is good or very necessary if nothing else and if we don't screw it up one way or another see the potential for us to be friends for a long time, but there are issues as well, of course.

Seriously though (Saturn?), I know Cancers aren't the most forthright about their possible moves or as per Linda G's words, maybe only lunge forward when the desired thing is moving away from them, but how do you best deal with the feeling that things aren't clear enough and that you want more clarity?

posted September 06, 2014 08:50 PM            

If you are not getting information out of him this early in the relationship, you need to think twice about this. In order for an open relationship to work complete honesty is needed. If he has been in an OR for a while he should understand the need to be totally clear, otherwise it comes off as being dicey IMO.

This is hard for me to say to you but if you are already checking out his FB and feeling jealous, an OP may not be for you. You should really think about this and your feelings for this man.

posted September 07, 2014 03:09 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by KarmicMoon:
If you are not getting information out of him this early in the relationship, you need to think twice about this. In order for an open relationship to work complete honesty is needed. If he has been in an OR for a while he should understand the need to be totally clear, otherwise it comes off as being dicey IMO.

This is hard for me to say to you but if you are already checking out his FB and feeling jealous, an OP may not be for you. You should really think about this and your feelings for this man.

His Neptune is squaring your Sun, Venus, Moon, opposing your Mars and inconjuncting your Saturn. That spells trouble to me. Make sure you are seeing things clearly!

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Thanks for the response, although as point out later, not sure why it'd have been so hard to say what you did if I was asking for more info or the honest response from him, too. ;)

I was getting information, but in the vague manner that was okay with someone else seeming to go "Lalalalala" about him being involved with anybody else. When I heard his wife and an ex related fine, I was rather relieved since didn't want to have to avoid people just in case something were to happen, if the whole situation was from the wife's idea first off. The two have busy lives and move abroad a lot as well, and as stated in previous posts, he prefers to know women for some closeness and chats as well, so getting around to relations has taken him some time from when the thing was first sprung on him from her wife's side.

I have no idea when he started with other relationships at his end since it never seemed pertinent to me to ask. It wasn't information I needed. On other levels I know he'd been active talking to a couple of women for some two months before bumping into me online, and when I very early on asked what kind he'd met/talked to, got a 2-3 line mention of (each of) them, hence knowing who he meant from his FB. We added each other early on, so it really wasn't that difficult to see that other people added recently fit the women he'd mentioned, cue checking them out to see what was what. One thing noted was a similarity of type looks-wise in some cases, my being on the same continuum. Is that putting things more clearly?

It's my feeling of not getting him to see that I want or prefer more information and to be better in the loop than whoever he's used to so far, apparently. It seemed that he got it finally but my feeling was that I had to repeat things 3-5 times for something to go through, or for him to stop expecting me to react like whoever else. So once I got it through, he seemed to get the point of what level of mutual disclosure or honesty I was talking about, whatever the risk of alienation from the other person. I have little use for something vague and fuzzy if that'll make things skew in wrong directions, instead of clearer info. If things go in wrong directions because of who we are and what we do, that's another thing from having misconceptions, ideas or expectations skew things.

Hence the point of "little sensible reason to get involved" if don't have clarity about how things are later on when meeting up is better timed for both. Meaning maybe as late as December, if that clarifies something else. Not much need to know what he's doing this month if I'm not going to get involved, but if I were to later on, I'd want to know what the deal was in November at least, if not October as well. Which, when we got through the honest response thing, seemed a no problem with him. Provided I or we still feel interested then, but that's for time to tell.

The mentioned flare-ups of jealousy are flare-ups. Meaning five minutes of a hmph when hearing about something that in my case had to be postponed due to circumstances, work/countries/schedules. I don't really recall something lasting much more than that, since again, am not involved and am certainly not in "love" or anything such.

I'm not sure why it'd be hard for you to say, when have specifically not kept wonkier sides out of the equation in the original post. I assume that's more of the same as it was with him, that it's supposedly better to not have all the info even if the info were to lead to calling something off or in the end finding the other not your thing or something. There is little use for me to have some vague "It's okay" remark from anyone, even if that was the coy way of going about things.

I have no particular feelings for him, as have said in some thread somewhere and further up now. I'm fond of him and given our association or how things went, definitely wanted to try him out for one session of sex at least. Curiosity to sate. He's smart and charming, but I would have preferred an earlier note about how busy with work he actually was just now. Or that he would have stuck with a semi-talked about date to see, but you can't expect something like that if there are unexpected things on his family front, when the extended family don't know about the couple's arrangements.

You can't get out of some things without having to explain too much, and it was never any specifically agreed meet between us, as well as family things taking precedence, so no agreements broken or anything. Just slightly annoying at first to hear that meeting face-to-face aside Skype would get postponed until later. It's also a blessing in that it allows for more time to get to know each other, for that "being able to decide or make informed decisions about the other" side that I wanted with information. He'd have gotten me easier to bed early on, that is. I'll have to see how I react to his promised seduction when the time is better for both.

Current thinking is a bit of a dry "Impress me then" since have no reason to right now fancy him. It's a backburner thing or currently not pertinent, also for that bit about being able to relax when felt I got myself understood. I know he can be impressive and charming, but of course we may not hit it off sexually, anyway, even when meeting. There is an assumption that whatever our interest on sex fronts, it'll be nice to meet up just because of the history of meeting eleven years ago, it being a shame to waste a smart person from your acquaintances or circles even if sex wasn't on.

Neptune was part of what the question was, as said. I know well it's there with the midpoint opposition, and my Sun-Moon opposition making a cross with his Saturn-Neptune one, all sorts of things on the square sides. I imagine I wouldn't have to ask for such clarity if Neptune and 12th house weren't part of the equation, hence the post. It's just that I want to know to be able to decide better, but don't know if he'd later withdraw to more Neptunian elusiveness if did get physically involved. In any case, a lot of people I have responded to over the years have had something on the far midpoint of my Sun/Moon, and whatever the planet there, it always gets the same aspects with what you list.

The composite has the trines with Neptune, but of course Astrodienst still suggests high ideals and platonic relationships as the other option only, even if not as harsh potential blinkers as when it's a square or an opposition.

Actually, I don't need to know to decide if going by current "Too much hassle, couldn't be bothered" thoughts, but as constantly, the more information I have about things the better I can make moves no matter what happens with it. Astrological information included.

posted September 07, 2014 08:44 AM            

I'm not quite sure where you are in the stages of this. Maybe I misunderstood by thinking he had already asked for you to get involved with him sexually. Since he has told you he is in an open relationship I assume he is interested in you in that way, otherwise why even bring it up. If you aren't that interested in him and can remained detached then go for it. I tnk you should be able to ask questions of him about it straight out and he should answer straight out and if that isn't forth coming then think twice. Have you seen evidence that what he has told you is the truth and his wife for sure knows about all this? A lot of guys say they are in open relationships when they aren't. I've heard from 'experts' it's a good idea to ask the persons partner about it to make sure.

posted September 07, 2014 11:31 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by KarmicMoon:
Ok, Keela. I was just worring about offending you! I'm not sure about 12th house stuff but I just noticed yesterday my husband and I have Saturn in the 12th composite and that is what drew me to your post. We definitely have a hard time communicating! We can talk about trivial things but once we get into serious relationship issues it nose dives very quickly into arguments so we avoid talking about any of that.

I'm not quite sure where you are in the stages of this. Maybe I misunderstood by thinking he had already asked for you to get involved with him sexually. Since he has told you he is in an open relationship I assume he is interested in you in that way, otherwise why even bring it up. If you aren't that interested in him and can remained detached then go for it. I think you should be able to ask questions of him about it straight out and he should answer straight out and if that isn't forth coming then think twice. Have you seen evidence that what he has told you is the truth and his wife for sure knows about all this? A lot of guys say they are in open relationships when they aren't. I've heard from 'experts' it's a good idea to ask the person's partner about it to make sure.

There is so much Neptune and Saturn in your synastry! Of course, Neptune doesn't always have to be illusion. It can be higher love too. I have experienced Neptune/Venus square DW in synastry (both our Venus' being in the 12th house) though and it was difficult. Wish I could be more help to your question!

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I'm very tired just now but waiting for some other stuff to finish before can get to bed, so hope I'm not missing words or anything in what write. From what I recall, he was kind of skirting the issue of whether I'd want to have sex with him or not early on, when from my POV it was "Why would I have answered to you and kept in touch like this if the possibility of sex wasn't among the possibilities?" That slight thing about not being able to assume people find you attractive when in early stages of associations, although from my POV it was more slight concern that he'd find me unattractive. Apparently both found the other attractive, and sex was definitely discussed early on already. There was a Saturday in July when he said something about how he'd have come to a town closer to me if he'd have just thought about it a bit earlier, instead of heading back to his hometown from where he'd been.

I have no reason to believe he'd have any reason to lie about relationship statuses. He's not the sort/has zero reason to in my case. I've always been distantly aware of him and his girlfriend-come-wife somewhere around, if reminded his existence, with there also being a shared friend/acquaintance between me and him from years back, but I had no big reason or need to try and contact him. As said, he met his wife at the same event as me, and it's small circles in this country and some other places, so I'm basically only a step away from her in at least three online places, that FB included. He didn't have my name from eleven years ago, but if both recognized the other on re-contact and I told him straight off we had that mutual acquaintance, too, there's zero point for him to try to claim anything untrue.

Only reason I bothered with more contact with someone declaring open relationship statuses is because I had the previous contact with him and the feeling or vibe about how he was. Otherwise, can't tell online. He seemed slightly unsure of other people's interest in any open relationship type thing with him, knowing well that it's not for everybody, so that lead to an additional layer of uncertainty about whether I'd be interested. Meaning I supposedly had to spell even that out to him, instead of that "Why do you think I'm talking to you in the first place?" smile. Could all just have been friendly, but the contact was geared toward sexual contact from early on even when neither side was sure if the other end was interested. Timings just didn't work, with the distance, times abroad and more.

The stages are "We would have already, had there been a chance to meet, but since the timings don't work for the next couple of months, everything's postponed now. Cue more time to think".

Asking questions isn't off and he answers honestly (as much as I can tell without having been somewhere in question), all the way to what I imagine would seem blunt to some. I don't know if it'd be easier and quicker talking things through face to face, but the problem is that expectation that I'd somehow prefer the less forthright approach, because others seem to have. Maybe it's all relative and due to the medium, but I don't recall it taking 3-4 emails to get things cleared with others. Different circumstances, yes, and in some cases a lot less clarifying of things done in general, but still. I consider it a good thing that we are clearing things out even if we never end up in bed, but also don't know if too much delving deeper will end up making it that platonic thing only in the end, if we become too "real" or some other turn happens in it all.

There are probably many possible astro-reasons for the whole interaction, but with a slight clash due to misread things and hitting the other person's buttons (both starting with me, mirrored at his end in fabulous examples of squares I guess) a while back, the strong reaction of the fear of "losing" him if he got more irate or irate enough to cut contact flared up likewise. Thankfully he is mature though and likewise that he makes me want to tone down more abrasive sides and work things out. Once I got the honesty or clarity levels to where I felt I could relax, the fear of lack of contact dissipated (relaxing, as said). I suspect there may be more rounds of that in the future though if contact deepens, one way or another. Things to work out or through.

Now-Aubyanne suggested karmic things from the composite, and I doubt anyone would react with fear as strongly as I did based on a mere five weeks or so of knowing someone, so... if you believe in past lives, suppose there is another canvas somewhere from several lifetimes over as well. Also for the coincidences in the first meet and people known, little things. If thinking along those lines, I'd be pretty sure I've known both him and his wife before, possibly as a triangle, possibly otherwise. They've seemed a lovely couple from my afar POV though and she seems lovely enough, and based on the interests of his other interests/potential lovers, trouble is we'd all probably get along from an intellectual interests POV. Can't quite call it a Past Lives Club yet since don't know who he's gathering over time, but if it's 12th house synastry I suppose there might be that as well.

My reaction to the "Scorpio Sun on his IC" case is because her Sun squares my ASC-DC, so of course I'm going to react. Otherwise, where my ASC quindeciles his Mars, the wife's Mars quindeciles HIS Ascendant, and on and on the mirrored patterns go. Their Mercury-Mars opposition is on my ASC-DC. My draconic ASC on the wife's MC, draconic Moon on her DC, loads of contact between all charts. Possibly why I haven't felt isolated from any of it or have wanted to know, too, but it's complicated, and not a part of the one on one synastry with him.

I found myself strangely detached compared to many other times when first getting to know an interesting man, but put that down to knowing he was attached and that there was no point in entertaining any particular romantic notions, or allowing such to grow. His wife writes about him as a wonderful husband, which fits my impression of him (Cancer sort), so it's not that he wouldn't be very charming and lovely and potentially very risky if you want to avoid the slightest chance of ever falling in love with someone. I'm just not emotionally involved like that currently, it being more fondness and preferring he be happy than insistence that we absolutely specifically do something. There's something more for me somewhere in any case, so why be too fussed about this one tied to someone else? The momentary bouts of jealousy flared up about other people having a chance to get something with him; and growing emotional bonds may cause issues to work through IF things veer that way, but I doubt we've worked through whatever the synastry and composite suggest this early on yet.

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The PROGRESSIONS are the main reason why it's all happening now instead of sometime the previous eleven years. His progressed Sun is 27.45 Leo so nearing my natal Sun, and my progressed Venus is at 28.12 Leo or something like that. His progressed Venus is at 26.00 Leo so it will come in contact with my Sun even if the other ones gained distance in a couple of years. He also has progressed Juno at 27.20 Leo in the middle of it all, and I have draconic Jupiter conjunct my Sun. Once his pSun moves forward in 2-3 years it'll then oppose my Moon on top of all that.

His Sun is opposite his wife's Sun-Valentine (and my antiscia Valentine), so it's also ironic that my progressed Sun is now opposite HIS Valentine. I told you the mirrored patterns were very interesting, hence *logically thinking* assuming that we'd have contact for some time at least, now that we finally gained contact.

My progressed MC squares his nodal axis by a degree, exact next year or so. His progressed Eros is 0.09 Virgo past my current pASC that just moved to Virgo. Prog. Eros also opposes my Moon, and MY pEros at 5.44 Sag will have a brief square from his progressed Moon soon as it's currently around 3 Virgo. His pPsyche at 12.06 Leo now so nearing a square to my Eros square his Nodes.

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I did check links for 12th house things, so dropping some below. Not sure if it was more synastry only in those though.

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/002472.html
"The point of the story is that someone who energizes your twelfth house comes at you from your blind side, undercutting the myth of yourself and the world, presenting you with new perceptions that invalidate your premises." I had to get a new way of looking at or describing an aspect about my life so far through the early interaction already, so I considered it a beneficial contact already based on that one case of re-evaluation. It was not tied to him, but he was the trigger leading me to that.
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum24/HTML/216052.html
Synastry from the planet person's perspective.

No worries about not helping more, you replied and had insights. Even some help or insights is better than nothing, even if some people have 5-8 people jumping in with comments. I haven't even done anything physical with the man that could be seen as immoral to some, so it shouldn't be that either.

SATURN/SECONDARY RULERS:

There could be a ton of things to say about the Saturn (or Neptune, or whatever else), but I'm fairly sure I'm missing things since different things stick out to people. If Saturn is "Let's conduct this in a mature manner with responsibility" I guess there's been that already as well. It tends to change over time in any case, but whatever it is, my Saturn and his are the antiscia of each other. I noted it because my parents had a similar thing with their Uranuses, their relationship having a high Uranian tone. Uranus was her Aquarian DC-ruler, Saturn being the co-ruler or old ruler there with us as well, for more hmmhs to ponder.

Yes, I have also noted that his Cancer-Sun is in his 11th house, so he gets the Aquarius/Uranus/11th vibe as well. His secondary 11th house ruler was Mercury from what I recall, and that's conjunct my ASC, so whatever their worth, there are contacts, aspects and overlays in the charts.