posted September 14, 2003 03:08 PM              

there is some factual stuff that most people use to pick at astrology ie precission of the earths axis means the constellations are out of line etc etc but you can correct that easily enough.

the fact is that astrology cannot be proven. in responce to my questions about the validity of astrology many people said that it would only be proven to me if i studied it further. unfortunately i dont have the time or the patience. i did have my chart done, but that did little to change my mind.

posted September 14, 2003 05:24 PM              

my views have really changed since i came here and talked to people- not on the fundamental "does it work?" but other stuff. i realize that its not as simple as "does it work" its more to do with faith and what you believe in. I do kind of think that there must be more (to life, spiritually) but i dont think its astrology.

i know that none of my past arguments will work- as they have all been put to rest in other threads, but its kind of a 'stalemate' situation now- i can say anything valid against astrology and no one has yet said anything to push me the other way.

i have loads of respect for everyone in this forum- ive learned so much and really like the atmosphere here, but i generally only have a look in the astrology forum since the topics here are mostly technical and i have no clue.

posted September 14, 2003 06:43 PM            

It's almost midnight here now and I have to go to bed so I'll post more tomorrow.

Just for now....
I actually do believe in re-incarnation however that belief has nothing to do with my belief in astrology. I personally don't think the two beliefs automatically go "hand in hand".

Do you agree with genetics? Do you believe that we inherit certain traits and even illnesses from our families?

posted September 14, 2003 10:17 PM              

My view is that I personally have no need to "defend astrology", because usually those who launch that challenge do so from the point of view of a jeer (not meaning you, ash). This kind of person has already concluded that such-and-such a belief, and maybe the person who holds it, is idiotic. Personally I'm interested in discussion and debate, not arguing with an argumentative type who has pre-judged me.

What I do anymore in those situations is turn to them with the biggest smile I can muster, and ask them with great interest, "oh, and have you studied it?"

That immediately puts the conversation on a better footing of discussion, rather than some ridiculous podium vs. heckler footing.

Usually, anyway.

Because often their beef comes from SunSign astrology columns in newspapers, and frankly, I will agree that those are terrible -- they're tantamount to serving icing and calling it a cake.

The next area I try to broach is research. I must have done over a hundred natal charts over the years (although most of them were pretty rough!!), and through that process have confirmed for myself that yes, certain trends do show up in a chart. The fact is, it's difficult to believe before a person sees it for themselves. I was a skeptic and am stubborn, so study backed up by research was the only way I could determine what I thought. At least you could suggest it to the person.

Why not do a search for ash's old threads in this forum? You'll see some similar debate there, as she mentions. One was called "random argument" if I recall correctly.

Hey ash, you know I appreciate your current position, as well as your former one. I hope you do find some info that will help you decide whether astrology can ever be reconciled with science, because I'd like to know, too.

posted September 16, 2003 02:24 PM              

For the record, just so you know, i dont believe in reincarnation, astrology (obviously), or God. i kind of think there may be 'something' if you know what i mean but i dont think its any of those things. the just seem so... small, kind of. not meaning to be unfeeling towards anyone who believes in these things but to me astrology seems kind of trivial. i know that sounds weird since astrology is to do with 'the big picture' kind of stuff, but when i came to this forum and even now, all the astrology threads are guff like:

"help me understand my partner/friend with relation to our starsigns" and "what does my chart say about job prospects"

im sorry, but that kind of thing hardly seems like the 'big picture' scale of the universe kind of stuff. if astrology has any merit i would hope it would be about big stuff on a realistic cosmic timescale. not rubbish about an individuals traits or their week ahead. human beings are such a small blip in time it seems strange to me and seems like a way of making us feel that we (as a species) are actually important.

sorry rant over. anyway, genetics... i just did a psychology elective last year at uni and we studied the whole 'nature vs nurture' thing. it wasnt proven either way but i believe traits are more to do with environment rather than genes. things like personality. some stuff is obviously in your genes like baldness and some illnesses that are hereditory.(i cant spell).

i think psychologists can really help some people and that it is a valuable science. i guess most psychologists are able to diagnose and understand their patients by talking to them (i dont think knowing their starsign would help at all).

everyone can see similar traits in people, things like temperment, humour, how easy going they are etc. i personally havent really noticed very similar traits in people i know with the same sign (is that what you meant?) I dont really think about the traits of my friends very often i guess. ill have a think about that one.

posted September 16, 2003 05:46 PM            

Lol @ "lots of questions though". I'm out questioning a Libra

My re-incarnation beliefs do not stem from my belief in astrology. Those stem to some degree - well actually to say stem is probably incorrect because somewhere deep inside of me I just know there is re-incarnation. This has been confirmed to me on several occasions but that would take a long time to go into and explain.

Just one thing I would say to you ...never say anything is "kind of trivial" unless you've really taken the time to thoroughly learn and understand it as you're making a "judgement" on something you don't really know or understand - hence it really is an uniformed judgement. I don't mean that in a bad way

You say that traits are "more to do with environment rather than genes". I disagree with that and studies would also point to disagreeing....but we're not discussing that right now.

Interesting that you think that "psychologists can really help some people and that it is a valuable science. i guess most psychologists are able to diagnose and understand their patients by talking to them"

I don't understand your thought process or reasoning when you say "i dont think knowing their starsign would help at all." other than the fact that you have never studied astrology. I've studied both astrology and psychology and am more interested in psychological astrology. I have found that it can take a pychologists years to really understand their "client" (and a lot of clients are not prepared or can't afford financially to give a psychologist that time) - most people are not "open" to revealing themselves. So it takes many, many, many conversations/sessions with a psychologist. Astrology is an amazing "tool" into the pysche/mind/behaviour of that client. I think I combination of the two things psycholgy and astrology is incredible.

You said "I dont really think about the traits of my friends very often i guess. ill have a think about that one".
I think you should ....you obviously have an inquiring mind so take a bit of time to "observe" people. Check out their astrological signs and see if you can see similarities. It's quite a fun thing to do and in all honesty it's the only way that you will satisfy yourself re astrology. If it interests you enough, you'll take the time to really understand it
Sue

posted September 16, 2003 08:41 PM            

That being said, time and time again I have seen astrology work in my life, whether by transits or natal makeup. You have a yearning to understand, and as Cat said, you really should pursue it with some study of your own.

I'm not an astrologer, I just took classes for a couple of years, and find it impossible not to see how it works day to day. Now, my teacher always said "Astrology indicates, it does not compel," and what astrologers mean by that, is that no one is forced to make poor choices based on his or her astrological makeup. We can all strive to be the best, or worst, that we can be.

As Lunargirl said, the stuff in newspapers has done a great disservice to astrology. Ignore it.

I use astrology in very mundane ways, to my benefit! I always buy my new cars under an earth sun, my last was a Taurus, my current a Virgo with a Taurus moon. I avoid buying appliances or signing important documents when Mercury is retrograde. I find this bit of knowledge helps.

And...genetics does much more than predispose us to thinning hair. I know this through my own experience, by meeting my birth family. My adult siblings and I share some interesting things in common that can only reasonably be explained through genetics. My sis and I brush our hair with the same movements. Even odder, we both crack our wrists and elbows the way some people crack their knuckles (very uncommon).

And to throw astrology into the mix of my two families, I have a sister who was born 8/16...and a birth brother born 8/17, same year. I have a Gemini brother...and a Gemini birth sister. I have a Cap moon, with lots of other Cap influences in my chart, which any astrology book will tell you can indicate problems with a mother...I'm just skimming here for space...and only to illustrate some of the things that have 'proven' astrology to me.

Oh, btw...I don't think lioneye was condescending to you. Just making the point of how typical it is for a Libra to say "I don't believe in astrology" and temper it with respect for astrologers, thus illustrating her very Libra traits! (I'm sorry, I don't know if you're a she or a he!)

posted September 16, 2003 09:17 PM              

Pixelpixie,
I defend astrology always. I believe it. Especially after reading linda's book. "Astrology is a Science of Time. Astrology is a mathematical science, and when applied to such instances, cannot be wrong , even two percent of the time."pg900

The reason I called myself GeminiAries is because I was raised to believe that I was born in June. A Gemini
This past year I found out that when my parent's adopted me they had no records and they chose June as the month of my Birth-Day. I knew that I was adopted since I was 5yrs old. But I recently found out that with some past records that I was indeed a late March early April baby. I'm still working on the actual date. Linda's books have helped me understand so much.

Why I love the way I do. Why I want to control. Why I tend to be Jealous.

posted September 16, 2003 10:30 PM              

Yes I do feel a sence of relief even though I still have to continue my search. It's weird I have a lot of Gemini. Moody,ect... But when I read linda's book,Sun Signs, I became aware of my flaws and depth. I get fired from every job that I had to work a 8 to 5. I can't be behind a desk..... Now I understand why....

I graduated college, but finally found my voice in that Arts. It's all too weird. my parents don't know that I found out about this. They cry and ask me if I love them.. As if I would go and find my REAL parents. Hell NO.I'm thankful for the life I live and got, God Knew what he was doing.

When I fell in love with Mr. Scorpio, I couldn't understand why I felt such a strong tie to him. I fell in love with an unbelievable intensity. Linda G. defined me to a tee. I can meet a person and have them open the secret vault to me with just a look. People want to tell me their secrets. Why?
They open to me so fast. That's why I fell in love wiht scorp boy, in less then a week he told me everything. He trusted me. But now that dishonesty has threatened him personally, therefore dishoesty(ME) must be wiped out of existence.

posted September 17, 2003 12:01 AM              

Most people don't understand my search for the day of my birth. They think that I should just except my june date that I was given and continue living. But I'm now 27 and I can't, I want to know what time to the second. I told my God-Mother that I dont know who I am cause of this. She sweetly replied that I must not let this(Sun-Sign,Astrology) hold me back for I was chosen in adoption, and then my parents chose a date of birth that suited them and me.

Who Am I?

posted September 17, 2003 03:23 AM              

There's a thread in Free-For_All called "Adoption" if you ever want to look it up and join the conversation.

posted September 17, 2003 04:26 AM              

In all seriousness, i have also come to find that some really don't know two ***** about astrology, yet act like they do.

posted September 17, 2003 12:50 PM              

Well good to hear that I'm not the only one going through the search in adoption. Thanks for the kind words Pixel.
Well things are moving at a steady pace and reading Linda's books bring a sort of comfort to what I'm experiencing.
As she stated in her Sun Sign book...... Aries are unusually friendly and talkers.
Yep. Yep. That's ME

Everytime I think of my scorpio crush I read the Love Sign book on Aries/Scorpio relations and it helps me find CLOSURE in my difficult times.

Being an Aries is very Cool. I was so tired of people asking me if I was a 2faced Gemini. LOL LoL

posted September 17, 2003 01:07 PM            

Lunargirl, you are always filled with kindness, humour and glorious insights

posted September 18, 2003 02:24 PM              

My search has intensified to the 5th degree! I read both of Linda's books, Sun Signs and Love Sign.
Any advise of books that I can find more info on Aries Woman. Linda G. describes us (Aries) to a tee. But I would like to read more on me. Any good astrology books you could recommend would be so much appreciated.

Furthermore, you Scorpio people have a great way of talking TO people, rather then talking DOWN to them. .............. I'm not saying this because I'm in LOVE with a Scorp, but when you scorps give advise I get a sense of Tranquillity and true Compassion........ My guy made me feel that way too when he spoked to me. Linda G says it's a bond that all 6-8 people share.

Bless You

P.S All my close TRUE friends have always being Leo females. Why? But the thing is that it's rare that I stay friends with them. I attract them (friendship wise)all the time, but after a while, I can't stand them and they can't stand me.

But then we get back together (in friendship)it's as if we never parted. Leo females and I disagree A lot. Am I selfish, or are they?

posted September 18, 2003 04:09 PM              

Good point about of what you said, "I think it would be money "well spent" if you saw a good and I do mean a really "excellent" astrologer who could help you with a chart rectification. You would need to know dates of major events/happenings in your life.

But Linda G. is trull the only one that could help me. unfortunently she is gone. Well one thing........ I saw a great astrologer that knew nothing about me. And she is the one that told me that I was born in early April, not June like I was told.

That scared me. Finding this out was a blessing. Now What? She knew of my adoption, she knew that my parents looked different then me. I have another appointment with her on October 5.

The weird thing is that a lot of Gemini Sun Sign discription, relates a lot to me and my behavior. So maybe I'm an Aries with a Gemini Moon? Sun? Past?

All I know is that when I love, I LOVE with an unbelievable intensity. That's why I believe that I met my Soul Mate in my Scorp(crush)