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Author
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Topic: You can't hide your "Lyin' Eyes"
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KarenSD
unregistered
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posted October 22, 2004 03:02 PM
 
(apologies to The Eagles)"Honesty... is such a lonely word... every one is so untrue..." - Billy Joel I'm curious what any of you think about the subject of lies. This is just an unofficial curious query and I would totally appreciate feedback. Is it ever OK to lie? Do people born of certain Sun signs seem to fib more than others? Men of one sign more than others? Women of one sign more than others? Is omitting or "misstating" the truth about something the same as, better than or worse than an out and out untruth? Does it depend on the circumstance and situation if one feels he or she has no other recourse than to fib? When is OK to tell an out and out lie? Ever? Are "little white lies" ever really OK? Is it OK to not feel guilty after telling certain types of untruths? Do kids lie more than adults? Is it a sign of immaturity to not be honest?  Thanks... Karen IP: Logged |
lioneye68
unregistered
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posted October 22, 2004 03:10 PM
I think some signs are naturally TERRIBLE liars, so they tend to not do it very much. They experience big-time guilt about it, and it's hard for them to tell a lie without seeming uncomfortable. Taurus and Capricorn come to mind. Aries and Saggie too, but the reason they tend not to lie has more to do with Aries: their basic upfront and in-your-face nature. Saggie: Their opinion that TRUTH is a beautiful thing. Even when it's ugly. I think certain aspects in a chart might incline one towards being a very good fibber, such as Neptune aspects to Mercury, or a strongly Neptunian flavored chart. I use to know a Pisces guy who was just a compulsive liar. He did it so naturally and without batting an eyelash...it was frightening. Usually, it was just about his own delusions of grandeour like about his job and how much money he made. Scorpios and Pluto people are famous for concealing the truth, because they MUST keep their cards very close to their chest at all times. They just figure, "Hey, it's none of their business. What's it to them anyway?" IP: Logged |
hereisgone
unregistered
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posted October 22, 2004 04:40 PM
I'm a Scorpio female, and pretty good at lying if I do say so myself. I think it's ok to protect someone's feelings. Sometimes I tell people lies just to see if they'll believe me (and they usually do), but I always let them know the truth and that I was just joking with them. I've always done this, so I don't know if it's a sign trait or not.  IP: Logged |
mysticme74
unregistered
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posted October 22, 2004 04:56 PM
the three biggest liars i've ever known were all male, aquarius, pisces and scorpio.the aquarius and pisces would make up big elaborate lies. the scorpio, just white lies to get himself out of trouble. IP: Logged |
lalalinda
Moderator Posts: 1120
From: nevada
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted October 22, 2004 05:28 PM
white lies to avoid hurting another, maybe
The two that I watch for are;
Mars square Mercury and Jupiter in Gemini.
Thats not to say that if you have either one of these you'll be a liar but these two are predisposed to it.
I have the mars/mercury one and I refuse to lie. But I do get the urge to when I'm trying to avoid certain subjects.IP: Logged |
astro junkie
unregistered
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posted October 22, 2004 05:48 PM
 "terrible liehey god
why are you doing this to me
am i not living up to what i m supposed to be
why am i seething with this animosity
hey god
i think you owe me a great big apology terrible lie
terrible lie hey god
i really don t know what you mean
seems like salvation comes only in our dreams
i feel my hatred grow all the more extreme
hey god
can this world really be as sad as it seems terrible lie
terrible lie don t take it away from me
i need you to hold on to
don t take it away from me
i need you to hold on to
don t tear it
don t take it oh no there s nothing left for me to hide
(left for me to hide)
i lost my ignorance . security and pride
i m all alone in a world you must despise
hey god
i believed your promises
your promises and lies terrible lie
terrible lie terrible lie
you made me throw it all away
my morals left to decay
terrible lie
how many you betray
you've taken everything
terrible lie
my head is filled with disease
my skin is begging you . please
terrible lie
i m on my hands and knees
i want so much to believe
believe
believe (i give you everything)
(my sweet everything) (i give you everything)
i need someone to hold on to ..."
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sthenri
unregistered
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posted October 22, 2004 09:03 PM
No, I think lying sucks, it's an evasion of yourself, so you are sabotaging your own ego.In the end, it never does any good because is gained is never real. People who lie to others, always lie to themselves first, so they are living in their own hell. Then there are those who lie for others, who are incapable of living their own reality, they are even worse off since they are not very smart. In the end ignorance is not a good reason to lie.
Neptune in aspect to Venus, or lots of Pisces means concealment or lying for others is easy.
Some are liars, some are just diplomatic. However I know one Pisces sun who lied so much, he now is a militant anti-liar.
His moon and venus are in aries.
Unfortunately for me, he is really sexy, and very perceptive about my desire so I can never have him, although I am tempted to lie to get his attention. That's the only time I feel compelled to lie, to get a sexy Pisces or Aquarius into bed. I know that's my lesson in this life,
do not see anyone as a sexual object! Natasha
Taurus IP: Logged |
Eleanore
Moderator Posts: 112
From: Okinawa, Japan
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted October 22, 2004 11:03 PM
Sag here ... I can't stand lies. Not half-truths, quarter-truths, ommitted truths, none of that. Even little "white lies" usually bug me. Seriously, if I'm asking you whether or not I look fat it's not because I want you to feed my ego ... it's because I'm concerned about the outfit I'm wearing or if I look like I've gained weight. It's not the same as me asking, do you think I'm fat? And even that deserves an honest answer. But that's just me and I know it. I've had friends cry because their boyfriends told them the truth when they asked if they looked fat. But they did.  Why ask if you don't want to know the truth? It's not like they would've just out and told you if you hadn't asked. I don't get it. So, I've had to learn to be less honest with other people. I won't tell you you look fat when you show up in a dress that's much too tight, but I won't tell you you look great either. I'll probably comment on the color or ask if you've lost weight or something. The only times I ever lied when I was young was to get out of trouble ... and I felt absolutely awful about it afterwards, probably more so than I would have if I had just fessed up and been punished. Uck, just remembering it makes me feel gross. But the few times I lied I was really good at it ... which just made me feel sick. I could see myself lying to my mom or something and felt like I was having an OBE, like it couldn't really be me doing that. Heebie jeebies.
I do have to watch a tendency to exaggerate sometimes, but I usually catch myself and bring it back down to size when it's in regards to "real life" stuff. If I'm telling a story or fairy tale it gets larger than life.  Big Fish, you know?
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"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Ghandi IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted October 22, 2004 11:12 PM
Funny... I've thought about posting about this friend of mine who is the biggest liar I've ever known.Some of the things she'll lie about are insulting to my intelligence... yet, I don't quite know how to call her out on it. I'm sure she's not going to say... "Ok, Danielle. I'm full of sh!t. You've got me."  I'd be interested in hearing any insights into her astrological placements... Are there any specific aspects I could post?... er just all of 'em? IP: Logged |
KarenSD
unregistered
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posted October 22, 2004 11:24 PM
Do share!Thanks for the great "conversation" about this everyone. Please keep chiming in on this!! Thank you again,
Karen  SD  IP: Logged |
lioneye68
unregistered
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posted October 23, 2004 01:11 AM
I think everyone is conditioned to lie in certain circumstances, and to NOT lie would be inappropriate. It's called socialization, and tact.Your girlfreind has a baby, and you go to visit the two of them in the hospital. You're looking at the baby, and wondering how two fairly decent looking people could produce such a ghastly looking child. She says to you "Isn't he gorgeous?". You say.....what? C'mon, of course you say "Oh, yes. He's perfect. Just like his mommy" or something to that effect. there are times when there is only one acceptable thing to say, and it may or may not be the truth, but the truth is irrelevant. Unless you are a sadist, that is. IP: Logged |
Duality
unregistered
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posted October 23, 2004 03:01 AM
There are absolutely times when it's not only right to lie but it's one's moral oblgation to lie
As was mentioned, when it comes to people's kid's or if your friend bought a new house or dress she's extremely proud of and you find it be a dump/unflattering. If you know a person really well and you KNOW that they really mean it when they want your honest opinion - Go ahead but if you don't - LIE! That's the decent thing to do.
I would also lie when I have no interest in exposing things that are too personal or about my weaknesses - I don't see why I should have to share those when I don't feel safe enough or trust a person enough to do that.
I just don't get the notion of "Never lie" and "honesty at all costs" - It's self righteous and sanctimonious, just b/c a person wants to feel "right" with their "integrity", while hurting other people.
Eventually, learning how and when to lie is part of "growng up" and learning how to function in society.
If anyone here tried to tell the truth 100% of the time they would become an outcast in no time, I'm sure. IP: Logged |
Eleanore
Moderator Posts: 112
From: Okinawa, Japan
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted October 23, 2004 03:18 AM
Being tactful relates to not being offensive, not to lying. You can find ways to be tactful without lying unless you're a chronic liar, imo. I was never conditioned to lie by my parents or anyone else. However, I am usually quite tactful. If pushed to the limit, I will "omit" the truth. For example, a friend gets an awful haircut and is fully aware of it. Instead of me repeating the sentiment that it's ugly, I'd probably say something like, "oh, it'll grow in nicely" or "your eyes are so pretty that no one will notice anything else." That's not lying outright, it's just not being rude by refusing to state an ugly truth. It's being a little less than totally honest.
I never say things to purposely be mean or offensive, unless I absolutely intend to be mean and offensive ... which is rare.
I don't find truth to be, by nature, offensive. It's just truth. The way you present it can cause it to seem offensive or not.
I for one haven't seen any "ghastly looking" children ... beauty is a matter of perception. Everyone has something beautiful about them and that is worth complimenting if you try to see it, imo. Even with adults there are certainly people that you don't really find attractive ... but try to look at them differently; their eyes may be a singularly lovely feature, or their hair may be silky smooth and fabulous.
If a child is singing a song to me, I am not worried about whether or not s/he is on key and sings perfectly. I will applaud them and thank them for their gift. It would not be lying to be kind and tell them that they did a good job, because it was a good job within their reasonable limits. It's being understanding. But I would never tell a child that I thought was tone-deaf that they sing like Maria Callas or Enrico Caruso ... because that would an outright lie and cruelly misleading, imo.  Lying to be kind is highly overrated. The only people I know personally that prefer to lie to people outright "to be nice" are people who are highly in denial of their own flaws and oversensitive to any kind of criticism. Like my mother-in-law. She'll lie to your face because it's "polite" then talk about you behind your back. But if her boss tells her that she needs to do something over because she made a mistake she'll have a fit when she gets home because he was "so rude and insensitive" to her. 
***
From my own personal experience, the people I've known who were more comfortable with lies of any kind have strong Gemini or Scorpio influences, a few have strong Pisces influences. I'm not saying that these signs are all liars, just some of those that I've known. I even know a fellow Sag, by all means a naturally honest (sometimes tactlessly honest) sign, with a Scorpio Moon and various other Scorpio placements who has not a single problem with lying and "does not know what [she'd] do without lies". It's almost sad when I see her lying to someone to keep up the lie that she told someone else about the lie she told to her friend to be "nice" to her friend's friend with a little white lie so that she wouldn't hurt her feelings by telling her she can't stand her. It's dizzying. I can't help but quote "what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive".
I can certainly understand why some people think it's better to lie than to confront somebody else with the truth, asked for or not, because they're scared ... either of hurting the other person or of looking bad themselves. I'm not saying I'm starting some kind of "anti-lie" campaign or anything, either. I just prefer, in my own life, honesty over dishonesty.
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"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Ghandi
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lioneye68
unregistered
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posted October 23, 2004 04:10 AM
I believe you have to know when to hold 'em, and know when to fold 'em. If you can master this, you can greatly reduce your own grief in life. Good God are we expected to wear our hearts on our sleaves at all times?? No way.You only have to reveal that which seems appropriate for the cause.See...you have to be of two minds. There's the honest one that calls it like it is, and then, there's the tactful one that only speaks of that which is productive to the cause at the moment. Drawing the line of distinction means knowing exactly... when do I resort to which policy? It's very much dependant upon wisdom, kindness, and tact. Or, you could just barrel through life being utterly honest at all times, and wasting way too much time on arguements, debates and crying sessions. If that's your bag then fine...but if you actually have tangible goals, then that stuff would be counter-productive, it would seem. So, the logical path would be to avoid that, and learn some tact....which I suppose could be interpreted as a selective honesty...but that's a reality with life on earth. Not my rules. Don't shoot the messenger.  IP: Logged |
purple_scorp
unregistered
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posted October 23, 2004 05:46 AM
Hmm,there's quite a fingers here pointing to Scorps as liars....yikes! I don't lie but sometimes I don't tell the truth. My mother always used to say if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. Well, to not say something is a breeze for a secretive scorp. purple_scorp IP: Logged |
Eleanore
Moderator Posts: 112
From: Okinawa, Japan
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted October 23, 2004 06:30 AM
lioneye68
I wasn't shooting anyone or anything. I was responding to the topic of the thread in general. I may have referred to a point you made, but I wasn't directing my response to you, personally, at all. If I had been, I would've addressed you by name.You may see being tactful as lying. I don't. I see being tactful as not being offensive, which is congruent with the actual definition of the word. I see honesty, not lies, as being dependent on wisdom, kindness, and tact. It's a big difference to me. I don't see why honesty is seen as a rude, blundering, or offensive thing by some people, not just you. hon·est - adj.
1. Marked by or displaying integrity; upright.
2. Not deceptive or fraudulent; genuine.
3. Equitable; fair.
4. Characterized by truth; not false.
5. Sincere; frank.
6. Of good repute; respectable.
7. Without affectation; plain.
8. Virtuous; chaste.
I see nothing in the definition to constitute a necessarily offensive nature to the quality of honesty. I can only conclude that it is a negative connotation associated to the word from people's personal experiences with offensively honest people ... but that does not mean that all people who are honest are offensive. That would be as untrue as saying that all people who lie are inherently kind and only concerned for other people's well-being ... which is not, by necessity, true.
I try to be tactfully honest at all times. Honesty in itself doesn't make you cruel or clumsy or rude or unaware of people's feelings. That relates to being tactless ... something else entirely, just like you can choose to lie tactfully or tactlessly. The distinction is there ... I didn't, of a sudden, decide to make it so.
But that's just me. I really don't give a hoot what anyone else does or doesn't do. I may or may not like what other people do or say or whatever, but that has no bearing on who they are or whether or not I like them or think they are nice people. Nor should it. ***
Note
Please don't think I'm trying to be antagonistic or start a debate or anything of the sort. This is a forum for sharing and discussion, and that's all I'm trying to do.
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"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Ghandi
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sthenri
unregistered
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posted October 23, 2004 10:32 AM
There are no arguments with the truth, when you present it like you are ashamed of it, then it's offensive. I can see how someone would be angry at the truth if it's a criticism.Critics rarely know what they are talking about, honesty has more to do with actual experience,
Honestly, the world is deluded into thinking everyone is just like them, so if one person tells the truth, he or she thinks everyone knows about it already. If people don't, then it's a revelation, if it's not new then it's the simple truth. However, I find my friends usually know what I am talking about, none have poker faces. That saves me time at having to present the truth a certain way. That is a big waste of time IMO. Tact in most cases is wasted, anyway, there is way too much of that in life!
I wish my friends were more blunt, less tactful, especially the male ones. Maybe those who like the truth, also like to hear about other's experiences? Sort of a lack of boundaries due to curiousity.
Socially it can set you free. Natasha
Taurus
Sag Mars/1st house
Venus Aries IP: Logged |
virgotaurustaurus
unregistered
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posted October 23, 2004 01:57 PM
Oh man I could probably write an essay on how I feel about lying. Anyway, I just wanted to share that I have found a Leo who lies out his arse to make himself look like the most perfect person in the entire world. Very arrogant person. I've also met a compulsive liar Gemini, but he lies to stay out of trouble and he just makes things up to seem more interesting. Scorpios just seem to keep things to themselves rather than lying. A pisces I knew made up lies to try to ruin my life and to make himself look like the good person even though he was completely wrong. Every Taurus I've met doesn't know how to lie, and if they try I can always catch them. IP: Logged |
KarenSD
unregistered
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posted October 23, 2004 02:12 PM
I am going to chime on this at length at some point - but when i have more time to do so. (and that's no lie)Suffice it to say that i am enjoying all of your comments on this subject. There is a really interesting country music song out right now by Terri Clark called "Girls Lie Too" and i've been hearing it for a few months now and it just made me really start thinking about lies. I have lived with a man who was compulsive about lying, but i was so drawn to him that i didn't realize it until it was "too late." Funny thing was he constantly accused me of lying. And while the Piscean in me admits to sometimes omitting the truth, i find it nearly impossible to full-on lie. It is fascinating to me how he (like many) do the "transference" thing, or whatever psych term describes the behaviour of constantly telling the OTHER person that she (or he) is doing something that HE (or she) is actually the one doing. "Girls Lie Too" - Terri Clark So she can't go out tonight again
Her sister's sick, she's gotta baby-sit
Yeah, that sounds like a pretty good excuse
Now you didn't hear any of this from me
But things aren't always what they seem
Brace yourself, this may come as a shock to you [Chorus]
Girls lie, too
We don't care how much money you make
What you drive or what you weigh
Size don't matter anyway
Girls lie, too
Don't think you're the only ones
Who bend it, break it, stretch it some
We learn from you
Girls lie, too We can't wait to hear about your round of golf
We love to see deer heads hanging on the wall
And we like Hooters for their hotwings too
Other guys never cross our minds
We don't wonder what it might be like
How could it be any better than it is with you? [Repeat Chorus] Yeah, girls lie, too
We always forgive and forget
The cards and flowers you never sent
Will never be brought up again
Girls lie, too
Old gray sweatpants turn us on
We like your friends and we love your mom
And that's the truth
Girls lie, too
Yeah that's the truth
Girls lie, too No, we don't care how much hair you have
Yeah, that looks good
Comb it over like that IP: Logged |
Duality
unregistered
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posted October 23, 2004 03:07 PM
I'm a quadruple Gemini with a Pisces Moon  Look , I'm not here to advocate lying, I just think it is justfied at times and even necessary. Personally, I try to avoid it as much as I can if only b/c I can't be bothered to remember whom I told what.
quote:
I don't see why honesty is seen as a rude, blundering, or offensive thing by some
I dn't see honesty as "rude, blundering, or offensive ", I see honesty at all costs as that.
I think when we hear the word "lie" or think of the concept of lying, we automatically think of the dictionary definition of it or of the definition we were tought as kids.
The problem with that is that that definition is very simplistic and narrow b/c that's the only way to teach kids what lying is. You can't be too vague with kids b/c there's no way that they can understand all the complexities of life and of situations so you can't tell them that "sometimes it's ok to lie", you have to be definite!.
Well, life isn't definite and life isn't clear and every situation is unique so we have to make the decision again, each and every time.
With people I know really well and that know me, I have no problem b/c they know I never tell the truth to hurt or manipulate. In my nature I'm the kind of person that if I like something I don't hesitate to express it and they know that. The same applies to negative things but with strangers it doesn't always work that way.
When I do lie to spare someone's feelings, it doesn't mean that I fall all over myself with superlatives (when I feel the exact opposite) but I just try to be as positive as I can without exaggerating. IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted October 24, 2004 02:46 PM
Eleanore, You're such an awesome chick! I totally agree with you about honesty.  My lyin' friend... Hmmm... I don't know enough about Astrology to know which pieces of her chart to post so... I'm just going to post the graphic. My goal isn't to flame this chick, because even though she is a habitual liar, she is a very loyal friend and a decent person. The two things I would like for anyone to comment on are Lying and Negativity. She's also the MOST negative person I've ever known. Ok... so here's the chart:  Is there anything there that shows dishonesty, or negativity? IP: Logged |
virgotaurustaurus
unregistered
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posted October 24, 2004 02:56 PM
I'm still learning to read charts, but couldn't help to comment on this...I'm a virgo with a lot of earth and a tendency towards a fixed nature and I've been told by many people that I'm very negative/pessimistic (and serious, also). I like to call it realism haha. Anyhow, it really jumped out at me that she has 3 planets in Virgo, has lots of stuff in earth signs and seems to be of a fixed nature. Similarities to my negative self were too much for me to pass on. IP: Logged |
ariestiger
unregistered
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posted October 24, 2004 03:45 PM
I would agree with Lioneye on this one.
I used to be a terrific, barefaced liar at school (lots of Gemini and Pisces) - anything to avoid coals of fire and retribution for my numerous misdemeanours being heaped on my head. People's jaws dropped at the fact that I was able to tell such lies. They couldn't believe that I had such absolute cheek. So I got a reputation for being shifty, and no-one would trust me. I used to love drama at school - getting into roles, interpreting the character in my own way, making it a believable, memorable character and something the audience wanted to watch - actually, I should have pursued it more, but I think I would have found it too emotionally draining. And I might have ended up even more confused about my identity than I was at the time.
Nowadays I tend to tell the truth, as there's not much point in doing otherwise. If I feel good, bad or disinterested about something, it is usually perceptible - at home and with the family.
However, at work, presentation of myself is everything and I would get absolutely nowhere if I was brutally honest. There's assertiveness - which I only employ if someone attacks me personally. And there's also being diplomatic and tolerant, making people feel at ease and good about themselves. I teach an art class, which is quite interesting from the point of view of how the different personalities react. I treat everyone equally and with respect. Result: everyone is happy, they thank me for the class, they spread the word about my classes, which creates a demand.
Doubtless most of us have experienced the sort of teachers that were patronizing, belittling and wouldn't invest time in pupils they thought didn't have potential. They might have been speaking THEIR VERSION of the truth...That is not the sort of tutor I want to be, as I actually believe potential can be drawn out of most people, it's a question of approaching it from the right angle and being very committed. I can honestly say in 4 years of teaching that I have probably only privately disliked one student, and that was because she was deliberately difficult and the course was inappropriate for her. But I still treated her with respect. AriesTiger
Sun/Mercury in Aries, 8th House
Moon/Venus/Jupiter in Pisces, 6th House
Mars/Saturn in Gemini, 10th House
Ascendant in Virgo IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted October 24, 2004 05:07 PM
ariestiger,It's nice to know there are teachers out there like you  What sort of art do you teach? Is it general or specific? IP: Logged |
astro junkie
unregistered
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posted October 24, 2004 07:54 PM
Does anyone think that lying means the person is lacking a conscience?Thanks. .gloria IP: Logged | |
Lindaland
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