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Author Topic:   The Barnum Effect
Everlong
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posted February 28, 2005 10:02 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What does everyone think about this effect in use to dispute astrology? I just learned about it a couple of weeks back in my psychology class, and it's the only thing that I've ever found that can actually convince me that astrology might not really be as great as we think it is.

Here's a link that I think explains it pretty aptly:
http://skepdic.com/forer.html

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"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination." - John Lennon

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future_uncertain
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posted February 28, 2005 10:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for future_uncertain     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi, Everlong!

I've considered this before, but for me it doesn't answer how I can meet someone and know they must be a libra or a taurus, etc. IMHO, I think that if one were to make a list of all the major personality traits attributed to each sign, one would see that most of them apply to him/her at least a little bit. I think astrology comes into play when we realize that we're a bit more of some things than we are others.

Just my two cents...

Interesting topic!

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virgotaurustaurus
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posted February 28, 2005 10:43 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very interesting article! I've read about this in other things (I LOVE psychology)...I can see how it could totally be true, especially in the case of people who are very influential. The only thing is, I've always had a personal issue with these theories. First, I would have rejected about 80% of the example personality description, I would have rated it a 2. I've rejected a lot of stuff that is like that, especially fortune telling and I cannot STAND the enneagram...somehow I keep coming back to Astrology. It reminds me of someone a month ago telling me I should not read my own chart because I would only focus on the positive things. If anyone looked at what I have over here for my chart, they'd probably run away from me, I left in just as much of the negative stuff. I wonder if I just don't possess as much wishful thinking, influentialism.. I look at all the personality traits mentioned in my chart as potentials, not absolutes. "I COULD be this or that way..." I wonder if I've just done enough introspection where I already have a general idea of who I am, and then I look for matches externally, rather than validation externally.

Hmmm!! Well that was definitely a penny for my thoughts

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virgotaurustaurus
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posted February 28, 2005 11:29 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ooooh I also forgot to mention...the article doesn't really talk so much about personality tests, it does a little bit though...however, I have found that my astrological chart and this personality test called the Strong Interest Inventory correlated bigtime. It was so neat.

I've also found that the actual Myers-Briggs tests are rather inaccurate, and if people want to use their type they should figure it out by reading the descriptions instead.

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astro junkie
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posted March 01, 2005 12:25 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting ...

This was always my first consideration way back when, as a young teenager first getting into astrology. I mean, OF COURSE!! I think we ALL question this ourselves, whether it's wishful thinking, or suggestive interpretation. But it's BECAUSE we all start at this point which makes astrology that much stronger. If we started at that point, then what makes so many of us true astrological pioneers?

It's probably safe to say that some of the best defenders of a philosophy started out as complete skeptics towards that philosophy. It's like when someone says they are going to hypnotize you and make you cluck like a chicken. You're like - TRY ME!!!

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... it's better to light a candle than curse the darkness

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NosiS
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posted March 01, 2005 02:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NosiS     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is a good topic to discuss. I'd like to focus on the last part of this quote from the article for a moment, though.
quote:
Barry Beyerstein suggests the following test to determine whether the apparent validity of the pseudosciences mentioned above might not be due to the Forer effect, confirmation bias, or other psychological factors. (Note: the proposed test also uses subjective or personal validation and is not intended to test the accuracy of any personality assessment tool, but rather is intended to counteract the tendency to self-deception about such matters.)

I can't speak for all the other "psuedo-sciences" mentioned but I will definitely put up a stance against anyone or anything that attempts to disprove the validity of astrology. It does stir a bit of temper in me when astrology is labeled as such, a "psuedo-science", when it was used by our ancestors long before mathematics and the scientific method became a communicable consciousness. I understand, though, that their ignorance is their malady and ultimately I have compassion for those that do not see Truth as they struggle to piece their own puzzles together.
Off the tangent now, here is what I've come to realize. These tests and "effects" that the psychologists have unraveled may have only determined the existence of what was stated in the quote as "the tendency to s-elf-deception." But here is the kicker: we already knew this!!! It has been called the Power of Suggestion. We are all "s-elf-deceptive" to a certain extent, most way more than others, and this comes from our ability to dream and visualize the very things we want to be. Because of the perceptions upon us at a specific moment in time, other people may deem that we are being "s-elf-deceptive" just because we really wish to be a certain way and act upon those desires. Though we may not have a certain characteristic in our current personality, it does not disable us from attaining that characteristic. The problems that s-elf-deceptions bring upon us are the delusions of grandeur that may come about when evaluating our own s-elves; for how is it that anyone can truly judge whether or not we have attained what we desire? The answer is simple, but proven to be not so easily practiced. We must truly KNOW that we ARE the characteristics we wish to see in ours-elves. Once this is known, then the characteristic's presence materializes through the practicicing of the principles. Therefore, we should at least give others their chance to wish or dream, though not allow them to delude their s-elves in the process.
Astrology mantains this in a perfectly valid and documentable meta-science. Even Linda has quoted that "the stars incline, not compel." It would interest me to know the length and speficity of each of the "personality sketches" used in the experiments for it seems to me that it was probably not very extensive at all. Any good reading of an astrological birth chart could constitute the creation of a whole book with highly specific information. That is why when the generalization of Sun signs come to play, many people misjudge astrology as a falsity.
SCIENCE has SEEN SIN IN NICE SCENE[S] far too many times. It discredits to a fault, as it has even been known to limit its own progress from time to time. Though it proves as an invaluable tool for the study of how things function, it still leaves many unanswered questions.
I hope no one is offended or takes this personally in any way. I do not direct this to any specific person that has posted here. Think of the above writing as if you were looking inside someone's private notebook. I just had to vent some of these things in hopes to relieve some of the emotion involved. Maybe anyone here can relate, as well...

Merry Gnosis, everyone!


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Everlong
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posted March 01, 2005 10:55 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not that I don't trust your reasoning, virgotaurustaurus, but couldn't your rejection of the description just be a bias that you have from knowing about its background? It probably isn't, but just humm.

Yeah, I know what you mean astro junkie, I think . Although I have this book. It's pretty old, probably out of print, pretty small, thin. And it basically brutally criticizes all of the sun signs. Everyone that I've shown it to and myself included says that it's completely inaccurate. Could it be because we only accept those descriptions that either don't insult us or only do so mildly, or was it just really a stupid book? Something to scratch the head about.

But NosiS, I really do get what you're saying. And I have other things that I was thinking about today, on a more metaphysical level. I was reading Autobiography of a Yogi, and there was some small explanation on maya, which got me thinking. On personality. If we're ultimitaley trying to get away from boundaries and etc, it would make sense to me that there wouldn't be a point in trying to find out how we are labelled, etc... you know, just random things I was thinking about.

My psychology teacher gave us a third marking period project to basically just do a correlational study/experiment with a group/partner. I think I might test this effect out, although I'm still brainstorming ideas .

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SunChild
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From: Melbourne. Victoria. Australia
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 02, 2005 12:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow, NosiS, incredible!
It's just that many knowlfakes have blown me away with their insights lately!

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"And dreams, don't ever forget, are the first step in manifesting wishes into reality"-- Linda Goodman's Star Signs

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virgotaurustaurus
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posted March 02, 2005 01:59 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My rejection of the description could be a bias since I knew the material. Sometimes that definitely happens haha! I'm not totally how much my knowledge affected it, because I know by examples that I do resonate with certain things in personality tests (I looove the description of INTP's it fits me well)...I think it might even be a case of both things happening! Both my bias and just my experience of myself combining for me to mentally scream, "No! That's wrong!" The mind definitely works in mysterious ways that I don't even understand.

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