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Author Topic:   Saturn in 8th in Leo...
BlueTopaz124
Knowflake

Posts: 207
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted July 19, 2005 05:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BlueTopaz124     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am not good at all interpreting charts, let alone my own...a lot of attention right now on Saturn in Leo, for good reason.

Well, mine is just barely in my 8th house at 0 19' 11"...would anyone mind 'splaining what that means in my world?

Thank you very very!
kisses!
Laura

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Azalaksh
Knowflake

Posts: 982
From: New Brighton, MN, USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted July 19, 2005 08:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Azalaksh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Blue ~

I posted a thread about Saturn in Leo/5th house from Liz Greene a couple topics pages ago..... http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/005805.html , and also Saturn in the 8th.....

Here's Liz Greene from "Saturn - A New Look At An Old Devil"
quote:
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Saturn in Scorpio and the eighth house
The symbolic progression of man's evolution from Aries to Pisces has been described in many sources. There is a similar progression within the three signs belonging to one element, and here the progression represents the stages of development in that particular sphere of consciousness. The first sign or house belonging to that element is generally the clearest and most direct in meaning and relates to the development of the individual personality and its integration. The second sign of that element denotes a point of crisis for here the individual must take his own experience and integrate it into the group of which he is a part. This is rarely done without struggle, for this too is an expansion of consciousness from the personal to the universal. The third and last sign or house refers to the larger unit of the group and infers the final purpose of the particular level of consciousness symbolised by that element.
The watery signs and houses do not contradict this. In the fourth house a man is first subjected as an isolated unit to emotional forces and pressures from the environment which shape his future growth as a personality. He has the opportunity of building a base within himself so that the projection into circumstance is withdrawn and inner security on the feeling level becomes a permanent possession of his character. In the eighth house, the man must take his feeling nature as a channel of expression and contact and begin to function in personal relationships with others. The flow of feeling is now between him and another. Finally, in the twelfth house he has the opportunity of taking the wisdom he has acquired from his experiences and offering it to the group in service for the group development. He is no longer an isolated unit but part of a larger evolving life. This is a helpful way of viewing things which is useful to remember in considering Saturn in the eighth house for this house is probably the most misunderstood and maligned of all the houses in the horoscope.
This house is primarily described as either the house of physical death—which suggests that it has no value or activity outside that brief moment when we take leave of the physical sheath—or as "money received from others", a description which is an insult to the complexity and power of the sign and planet associated with the house. Both interpretations are valid as far as they go, but they do not help in an understanding of Saturn placed in the eighth beyond the reading of a death in old age and the denial of inheritance; and both of these readings are frequently mistaken. The interchange of finances between two people in partnership may be one of the by-products of the house, but it is only when the meaning of money as a symbol of emotional values is understood that the more complex meaning of "money received from others" becomes clear. Death itself does indeed come under this house, but there are many kinds of death, and most of them are not physical; and every death is followed inevitably by a rebirth because it is only the form, and not the life which inherits the form, that dies.
As a watery house, the eighth deals primarily with emotional exchange. As opposite from the second house, that which has physical value and meaning and which constitutes stability and self-sustenance becomes that which has emotional value and which constitutes stability of feeling. It is in the eighth sign, Scorpio, that we may find a clue to the significance of this house in matters of sex, emotional crises, and the death and rebirth of the instincts as purified desire.
This is primarily a house of crisis and refers to those points in life where the emotional ties to others force a man to the realisation of some vital area of his own feeling nature which must be recognised, examined, and purified. Here money becomes a symbol of emotional dependence or freedom, for in our society it buys freedom or bondage in marriage, and our sexual values are largely coloured by our finances. So often in the eighth house there exists the enactment of a struggle which appears purely material and which is really emotional in origin. It is no wonder that Freud attributed such significance to money in dreams and why psychology continues to recognise the relationship between monetary and emotional generosity or tightness.
It is common to find the individual with afflicted planets here tied to a difficult financial situation following upon a broken marriage or to chronic problems with partners who take advantage of him financially. This is particularly characteristic of an eighth house Saturn. When investigated, it will often be found that on the sexual and emotional levels there was difficulty in expression, and there is no sweeter revenge for many people than to air their disappointment and frustration in the face of an unresponsive Saturnian partner through material demands.
The area into which this discussion takes us is a prickly one, and this is usual for Scorpio and the eighth house; however, although the previous statement may seem inordinately hard, it is ironic that in our society the prostitute, who is at least honest about the wares she sells, is despised and generally ends up in jail, while the wife who fundamentally plays the same role and buys her security with her body is glorified because society condones this mask. There are a great many women who trade their sexual favours for a legal tie which promises them financial security and a great many men who buy these favours in exchange for what have been euphemistically termed "a husband's rights".
There is much rubble which must be dug through where our present attitudes toward sex in relation to money are concerned for we are still following the feudal concepts of family financial structure. In spite of the efforts of more enlightened souls, it will take another generation before we can begin to understand that the real nature of sex has nothing to do with the physical world at all but is the reflection of emotional and mental energies—which are in turn the reflection of still more complex energies. Money and sex are still too complex for the average man to understand except in a literal way, and consequently, we have a tremendous amount of confusion to wade through before the alchemical union of two people into one is understood.
The three watery houses and signs represent three aspects of the feeling nature of man. The fourth house symbolises the nurturing forces which shape his early life. The eighth symbolises the creative and procreative forces which he wields and through which he contacts others. The twelfth symbolises the dissipating forces which eventually break down his sense of separateness and release him into group life.
The eighth house is a battleground, the primary purpose of which is self-understanding and self-mastery through constant crises. There is no greater battleground or stimulus to crisis than the energies which are released through the apparently wholly physical act of sex. The union which occurs on the level of the feeling nature produces a flow of energy which takes a man, for a brief moment, "out of himself"—it is virtually the only time that he can feel himself to be at one with another human being. It is this intimate emotional oneness to which the sexual aspect of the eighth house refers; there is a death of the individual awareness and the birth of a mutual awareness for which reason the Elizabethans called the sexual act "the little death". Unfortunately there are many people who are as frightened of the apparent emotional vulnerability inherent in this as they are of death itself. What they do not recognise is that the union takes place whether it is recognised or not, and on the feeling level it is not possible to totally shut out the partner; it is only possible to believe that he has been shut out.
To consider this point of view is to recognise the real responsibility involved in a sexual union. This has nothing to do with morality. We have had many centuries of moral teachings which have done absolutely nothing to help us understand the real nature of the mystery. The currents of this great creative force or "serpent power"—whose cousins we may see as the serpent in the garden, the ourobouros of alchemy, and the plumed serpent of the Aztecs—may be released in other ways, but these belong to the sphere of the occultist and the magician, and the average individual knows only one—physical sex. Once set in motion, these currents bind and alter both souls involved. All states of consciousness which involve the "death" of the personality—ranging from those induced by drugs to certain kinds of religious ecstasy and trances of varying sorts—come under the rulership of the eighth house for they all refer to this same energy which can separate the self from its vehicles. Physical death is only the last in a series of deaths which begin with birth.
We understand very little about both sex and death at the present time, and this ignorance is more than slightly owed to the confusion of the Piscean era with its pronouncement of sex as evil and of death as the gateway to never ending heaven or hell. This kind of conditioning runs deep, as it has been with us for two thousand years, and even the more liberal-minded and scientifically inclined have the same collective heritage of fear, superstition, and fascination about this area of human experience. The individual with Saturn in the eighth house has a double burden on his hands for he must not only come to terms with Saturn—who is evasive enough on his own—but he must also be willing to make the descent into Pluto's realm if he is to find the treasure hard to attain. It may be said, however, and with no attempt at poetry, that the person who accomplishes this possesses the key to his own immortality.
In a great many cases with Saturn in Scorpio or in the eighth house, the individual's fears or feelings of inadequacy are in the area of sexual expression. This is undoubtedly a symbol for an even deeper fear; but here the symbol is powerful enough in its own right to create great pain in the person's life. The average man who has to deal with this situation will not, however, take kindly to being told this fact bluntly by an astrological consultant. People are as prickly about sex now, when it comes to overt discussion, as they were during Victoria's time. Moreover the man's inadequacy is not a physical one but rather an emotional one; this is a watery, not an earthy, house. Saturn in the eighth is often linked with impotence or frigidity, but these are also not physical problems, and the physician who attempts to cure these problems through hormones alone is committing a grave error. The difficulty here lies in the fear of submission, of violation, of the control of the partner, and of emotional rejection for it is the psychic rather than the physical exchange which contains the threat.
It is fairly common to find an individual with Saturn in the eighth who may be affectionate and loving but who, when the last outpost of separateness is passed in the bedroom, shies like a frightened horse and cannot perform. Or he may overcompensate for his inner fears by becoming the "perfect lover" on a purely physical level, and he may try to block the flow of energy and emotion to his partner so that he is, somehow, not really there. However subtle this mechanism is, it can be deeply frustrating and disturbing to the partner although it may not be recognised on a conscious level by either person. The individual may not be aware that anything is wrong except that somehow it is always faintly disappointing, and he is never able to achieve the satisfaction his fantasies tell him is possible. It takes an unusual degree of honesty to look directly at the subtle patterns which surround an eighth house Saturn for there is, at the same time as fear, the overcompensation of great value placed on performace in our present era. No wonder that these people have such trouble with money during and after marriage; they may easily find themselves under financial obligations concurrent with the amount of frustration they have unconsciously inflicted on their partners.
As with all Saturn positions, two extremes of behaviour are possible. The effects of overcompensation can help to produce the overtly promiscuous person who is not truly motivated by physical pleasure but who is trying particularly hard to be "sexy" because he or she is dimly aware of a fundamental problem in relating emotionally to another person. Here Saturn again tries to make an emotional value into a physical one with little success. This kind of behaviour is prevalent now because there is great emphasis on sexual freedom as the reaction to too much restriction in the past. Both are extremes which are part of the natural process of evolution but which are unpleasant in themselves for fear permeates them both.
It is naturally wise for the consultant astrologer to express diplomacy when dealing with eighth house matters for he may be inviting a punch in the mouth otherwise. But with this kind of eighth house Saturn, we are reminded of that wonderful Shakespearean line, "Methinks thou dost protest too much!" This is reminiscent of the fourth house Saturn who "adores" his family, who had a "wonderful" childhood, who had "no problems whatsoever" with either parent.
On the other hand the person with Saturn in the eighth may cloak his fears with the garment of strong religious or moral convictions of a particularly intolerant sort, thereby declaring as sinful that of which he is essentially afraid. In these cases Saturn is a prompter toward celibacy but for all the wrong reasons. The devil, unfortunately, is not vanquished by being told to go away; it is the light of consciousness that he cannot endure.
We may also find that rare individual who is honest enough with himself to understand that there is something within himself that needs development—as there is in everyone—and who makes the effort not only to discipline but to comprehend his sexual nature as well so that he can express it in the most positive way. In all cases, however, the fascination with death and with sex is very great although there may be fear or disgust at the same time.
It seems that a characteristic pattern of the person with an eighth house Saturn is to be let down emotionally by others and often in the most intimate and painful way; and it is in this pattern that a clue to the larger purpose of the placement may be found. There is frequently a denial of deep emotional contact in childhood, and as Saturn has some connection with the father, this placement often occurs where the father dies or is emotionally cold. Often the individual grows up in an environment where very little physical expression occurs or where the sexual problems existent between the parents have filled the atmosphere with hostility and fear. There is some link between the father and the sexual energies although this may be very subtle. Often it is not subtle, and beatings or assault occur. The effect, whatever the actual circumstance, is a feeling of isolation and loneliness and the awareness that no one can share or alleviate the scars. For Saturn in the eighth house carries deeper emotional scars than any other Saturian placement, and the wounds are slower to heal.
The emotional isolation with an eighth house Saturn is even more acute than with a fourth house Saturn for the emotional needs are far more intense and directed toward individuals. It is union rather than security which is sought and union of a particularly intense and transforming kind. The individual often feels that through another he can be reborn and can achieve awareness of his spiritual nature. The lesson with Saturn, of course, is that one must do it himself; the transformation and resurrection into higher consciousness, the deep knowledge and mastery of the unconscious, must come from within the man himself. There is often a fascination with all things occult or, at the very least, an interest in the depths of the mind, and it is in utilising this interest and in learning the real nature of the energies of creation that the individual becomes a magician. The secrets of the powers of the unconscious are his, and these are literally life-giving powers for the healing of himself and others.
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'Zala

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BlueTopaz124
Knowflake

Posts: 207
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted July 19, 2005 08:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BlueTopaz124     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WOW 'Zala - Thank you very very!

I have some reading to do!

kisses!
Laura

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Azalaksh
Knowflake

Posts: 982
From: New Brighton, MN, USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted July 19, 2005 09:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Azalaksh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Laura ~

There are really four parts to getting the most out of Liz Greene's interps for Saturn. She has written chapters on Saturn in the Fiery, Earthy, Airy and Watery Signs and Houses, and separate chapters on Saturn in the Sign/House. So, to get the fullest understanding of what she has to say, you would read the following for your Saturn in Leo in the 8th House:

Saturn in Leo/5th
Saturn in Scorpio/8th
Saturn in the Watery Signs and Houses
Saturn in the Fiery Signs and Houses

I know it sounds like a lot, and could get complicated, but the way I handle my own Saturn in Libra in the 3rd was to read all four chapters and mentally note (or even write down) what resonates. Then pull all the things that resonate from the four different takes, and synthesize the results into one interp. Suggestion: read them all several times -- it gets both easier to understand and deeper the more times you read it! She's my favorite astro-author.....

'Zala

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wilsontc
unregistered
posted July 19, 2005 11:13 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Laura,

Leo modifying Saturn focused in the 8th house

is

Leo (self-expression) modifying Saturn (duty, responsibility, also restriction) focused in the 8th house (transformation, also power)

so you could be expressive about your responsibility in a powerful way or you might feel restricted in your self-expressive power...how you use the energy is up to you. For more about this simple "keyword" approach see: http://www.geocities.com/wilsontctc

Tranforming,

Tim

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