posted November 23, 2005 07:45 PM              

Of course some of this is simply him testing boundaries with me, as he's already very cyncial about adult and thinks they all think he's "stupid," (and he's *not* by a long shot). But something else seems to going on here. Curious as to what was going on with this kid on a deeper level, I drew up a chart and noticed something that made me scratch my head.

For the most part, there's a lot of good contacts:

- his Sun conjuncts my Mercury/MC in Gemini
- his ASC conjuncts my moon in Pisces
- his Mercury, moon and Venus in Cancer trine my moon
- his NN in Scorpio trines my moon

But he also has a kite fromed of a water grand trine with his moon/Venus in Cancer, Jupiter in Scoprio, Saturn in Pisces and Mars in Taurus opposing his Jupiter.

The thing hat is making me wonder in his Saturn in Pisces - it falls in his 12th house (a very difficult placement - often an indicator psychological difficulties) and falls exactly on my DC. I'm not sure how to intrepret that - a child's Saturn, afflicted by house yet strong by planetary aspects, conjunct an adult's DC? Anyone have any thought on this?

My initial intuition is that our positive contacts, mostly with my moon, indicate a very intutive rapport in were he sees me as a maternal figure while our positive Sun-Mercury/MC in Gem contact allows me to still be a good teacher toward him. However, this Saturn-DC contact may be at types be digging up psychological issues on a subconscious level of this child, making him obstinate and difficult. (I'm sure that tr Mars in RX, which was conjunct his natal Mars exactly when he got put in my calss, is effecting him too - but that's kind of a given right now.)

posted November 23, 2005 08:40 PM            

I won’t be much help with interps of your interaction with your student, but wanted to relate that my 9yo son with ADHD also has Saturn in Pisces (but in the 9th). I’m going to copy Liz Greene in below, even though it’s meant for adults, but there may be some insight you can eke out and apply to your charge. I just want to relate something that Liz wrote which applies to my boy: she says “This is always a difficult house, unless the path of service is pursued.” My son goes to a before- and after-school YMCA program right in his school. His behavioral issues were much abated when his special ed staff-person assigned him the position of “Junior Staff”. They gave him responsibilities (passing out snacks, overseeing cleanup, just little items) and his behavior improved tremendously – much less acting out, fewer impulsive meltdowns.
Anyway, from “Saturn - A New Look At An Old Devil”

quote:

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Saturn in Pisces and the twelfth house
The twelfth house, as the last in the circle and lying hidden behind the Ascendant or outward behaviour, symbolises both endings and beginnings. It is the end because it represents the sacrifice which must ultimately be made of the conscious personality as a separation unit. From a more abtruse point of view it represents the beginning because it refers to those causes from the past which, operating from birth and below the level of consciousness, draw to us those situations which require that we lose ourselves and die to be reborn into group consciousness. From water all life comes, says the Koran, and this house, reflecting Pisces and Neptune, the ancient god of the waters, suggests that plane where life, undifferentiated and without individuality, first sprang and where, wise with the lessons of individual consciousness, it must eventually return. Even shorn of its more esoteric associations, the twelfth house refers to isolation and submission, and to the dissolution of the personality.
This is often called the house of karma, based on the idea that planets found here are in some way denied normal expression and are often operating as unconscious rather than conscious drives. It is also called the house of self-undoing because isolation, incarceration, helplessness, and bondage are often the lot of the person with a heavily active twelfth house—literal or symbolic—and it is his own actions which draw these conditions to him. Whether a long past is considered or not, the inference is certainly present that the ego, built through the efforts of the previous eleven houses and signs, must eventually be laid on the altar of sacrifice so that the man may become a functioning part of a larger whole and give of his wisdom and energy for the good of the group. For the man who refuses to comprehend this, it is the house of hospitals and prisons, for only through the loss of individual power can a man realise that he himself is nothing without a link to the rest of life.
This is always a difficult house, unless the path of service is pursued. Somehow the release of energy in this way alleviates much of the frustration and loneliness which accompanies twelfth house planets and makes the required sacrifices bearable. Great pain often occurs through the twelfth house for the loss of the will after so much careful building is a great blow to the man who has come to identify himself with his personal desires. Yet loss of will is the price which all planets pay when found in this house although the finding of real inner serenity is often gained in exchange.
As the last sign of the watery trigon, Pisces symbolises the completion and fulfillment of all emotional strivings--unity not with another person but with life itself. This is the mystical marriage, and it is most difficult for the average man, centered in his personality, to deal with. There is no battle required; only acquiescence and devotion. It is almost impossible to make any sense of the twelfth house from a purely mundane point of view, for even more than the eighth, this is a non-material house and pertains to matters which bring a man into closer touch with subjective reality. Any planet in the twelfth is subject to the dissolving and transmuting influence which blocks the ordinary personal expression of the planet and forces its energies inward and upward. That which occurs here occurs in secret like the gestation of a child. Only when the term is complete can this facet of the individual unfold like a newborn baby into external expression; and by then it is changed.
Saturn in the twelfth house, and to a lesser extent in Pisces, is difficult from the point of view of the personality because the Saturnian energies, geared initially toward self-protection and defense against the environment, are rendered ineffectual. This may in extreme situations be through hospitalisation or imprisonment for a period of time, and the man may learn through his own helplessness how ultimately impotent the personal will is against the forces of his own past which he himself has set in motion. The feeling that one is helpless and must submit to something larger and greater is frequent with this placement of Saturn although it may occur on a very subjective level. This is a cadent house and refers to states of mind, and Saturn here often generates a vague fear that someone or something, a misty or generalised fate or destiny, is going to destroy him or control him. He may isolate himself and attempt to shield himself from contact with others at the same time that he is weighed down by an oppressive loneliness and sense of powerlessness.
The sacrifice of one's material ambitions is often concurrent with a twelfth house Saturn, and this is also one of the commonest significators of the child who dedicates his life to the care of an ailing or helpless parent at the cost of his own development. This is often done not because it must be—there are always alternatives—but because there is an intense feeling of guilt, obligation, and an instinctual understanding that he must make some sacrifice or pay some debt. It is also often the reflection of a fear of confronting external life and a sense of impotence in being able to handle practical affairs.
Guilt looms large with this placement of Saturn although it is generalised rather than specific guilt. It may cause a man to seek penance through solitude, or there may be religious penance in the literal sense resulting in the monk or nun. It may be apparently involuntary penance as is the case with incarceration; but the man himself chooses this course although he may not consciously believe he will have to pay. It may result in sickness or withdrawal from conscious awareness through drugs, alcohol, or insanity. Or it may be much more subtle and less drastic, as in the case of the man who is always alone and always feels separation from the rest of humanity and the rest of life, no matter how many people he surrounds himself with.
Typical Saturnian ambivalence occurs with a twelfth house Saturn too, and there is both a compulsive fascination with and a great fear of losing one's identity and individuality. But whatever the specific mundane situation which is reflected, the individual is generally called upon at some point in his life to endure helplessness and aloneness and the sacrifice of his control. When this occurs on an inner level, the individual is frequently unable to communicate his feelings to others which only increases his sense of isolation. He does not understand what it is that he is trying to protect himself against, any more than he understands the abyss which draws him with such fascination. He only knows that he feels powerless and may overcompensate for this feeling by attempting to prove that he is totally master of his life. This may land him in hospital or in jail without his understanding the inner motives which have brought him there.
Saturn is representative in his disguised and baser form as the most personal kind of power, that which a person seizes for self-protection through manipulation of his environment. It is man's defense mechanism which is necessary for a long time while the unfolding consciousness needs defending; however, when Saturn is found in Pisces or in the twelfth house, the time has come for the scaffolding to be taken down for the inner structure is nearly complete, and stripping this away is initially like stripping off one's outer skin and exposing the raw and tender area beneath.
As opposite to the sixth house, the twelfth disorganises that which the sixth has put in order and offers chaos instead. This is not the chaos of sickness and madness, however; it only seems so to those who have built their conception of reality on a mundane base.
Understanding the meaning of this position takes us beyond the field of orthodox psychology which has certainly mastered the fourth house and some of the eighth but is lost when confronting the mysteries of the twelfth. Recognition of the urge for evolution, for meaning, for the spiritual side of life as a valid psychological drive in man is now becoming widespread however; and when it is understood that this is perhaps the most basic and most important instinct in man—although an instinct of the psyche rather than of the body—then it will not be such a painful experience for a man to sacrifice his personality to permit his total self expression. The real potential of Saturn in the twelfth house is unfortunately only available now to those of a mystical bent who are inclined toward the path of inner contemplation. To them it is the final sacrifice of the sense of separateness and is willingly undergone because it is the last door between man and his freedom. It depends in the end on one's perspective. Trying to hunt Saturn down through the mazes of the unconscious is difficult enough in the eighth house where there are still some personality links; but the twelfth is wholly of the soul, and analysis does not help understanding unless it is backed by a knowledge of man's innately spiritual nature. The gold available from a twelfth house Saturn is the power to serve, not to "do good"—which is not service at all—but to experience the sense of unity which the mystic is forever seeking and the sense of responsibility and detached love which accompanies this unity. This will, of course, make no sense to the earthy man and may offend more pragmatic astrologers; but the fact remains that the twelfth house has not yet been satisfactorily explained any more than has the nature of man. It may be that as scientific evidence piles up, slowly but surely, in demonstration of the occult teachings of the past, the interrelation-ships of all living things and their essential underlying oneness will be a fact on the objective plane as well as a subjective experience on the part of the mystic.
Saturn in the watery signs and houses is worthy of first place because it is in this area that he displays his greatest ambiguity and also his greatest emotional suffering. As man is only now beginning to learn how to think objectively as a group, and as the majority of people are still polarised in their feeling natures, Saturn in water is responsible for a great deal of the loneliness and isolation so apparent at the present time. It is of some help for the individual who has Saturn in a watery house or sign to recognise that his potential in terms of inner peace, understanding, and wisdom is as great as his potential for despair if he will only turn inward to the realm of the feelings and of the unconscious.

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posted November 23, 2005 11:57 PM              

It's also interesting that while his Saturn falls in his 12th natally, it actually falls in my *6th*, 1.5 degrees before my DC. He responds very positively to my structure and consistency in the classroom, but when he gets obstinate, it does seem like he's turned 180 degree around and is resisting that structure in everyway possible short of violence (thank god for that). There's little grey area with him discipline-wise - either he's on track and willingly compliant or completely off track and actively non-compliant. There's little of what we call "escalation" of his negative behavior, which is why this behavior is a challange to manage in the classroom. Perhaps this is due to the dynamics of his 12th house and my 6th house upon his Pisces Saturn?

The guilt issue is apparent with this child too. Once he becomes contrite, he wants his apology to be believed and gets very upset if you don't believe his sincerity. He's often very compliant after he apologizes, acting as if his good behavior is a form of compensation for his previous bad behavior.

I don't think he's at the age to understand his acting out, and can only imagine that isn't very frustrating for him. I suspect he also has Executive Function Disorder, which is frequently comorbid with ADD/ADHD. One of the symptoms of EFD is the inability to override negative thinking and emotions, which he demonstrates when he acts out. I get the impression he does feel fristration and a sense of powerless over these kinds of feelings, and if this coming from his 12th house and his Saturn, it's very liekly he's feeling deep guilt and shame about it too. That kind of shame seems apparent in his poor self-esteem, which he trends to express in refusing to do work, caling himself "stupid," saying things are "boring" (such a Geminian defense! LOL) and verbally berating his classmates.

posted December 06, 2005 12:30 PM              

i had this conjunction in my last relationship -- my saturn (and ceres asteroid) were just a couple degrees from his descendant. i do not know how this might play out between a child's saturn and an adult's DC...but between us, i felt the need to refrain from placing restrictions on the relationship or else i got the feeling he'd rebel. luckily it's not really my thing to be restrictive, but there was that underlying theme that i sensed was there.

i took some passages from this saturn article which i have found to be quite fascinating:

When Saturn in one chart forms an aspect with another person's personal planet or point, the energy interplays between the two people are distinct. Saturn is the planet of restriction, commitment, and reality. We usually find Saturn interaspects with personal planets or points in long-lasting relationships. These aspects play out over time and often manifest in clear stages.

As time passes, and especially once a commitment is made between each other, the personal planet/point person will inevitably grow in that area of life or part of the personality represented by the personal planet or point. [Note that a commitment doesn't necessarily literally mean marriage. It can be as simple as a commitment that the partnership is a one-to-one relationship, or that it is exclusive.] What generally happens is that the security that bound the two together in the first place feels threatened on the part of the Saturn person as the personal planet or point person changes or grows. Saturn resists change, and feels threatened by it. The Saturn person may exercise some kind of control over the personal planet person - some form of restriction. This can take the form of criticizing the energies expressed by the personal planet person.

Saturn in synastry is intriguing because what begins as a strong sense of security and comfort felt between a couple can eventually degenerate into feelings of pressure to stay the same, and an overall sense that one does not want the other to grow or develop. Saturn generally is the one who wants the bond to be exclusive, and although the personal planet (point) person generally wants the same thing, that personal planet (point) person feels enormous pressure to be a certain way and feels like he or she is not free to express him or herself in a natural and dynamic manner. With repeated experiences in which the personal planet (point) meets a critical or cold response from Saturn as a result of a spontaneous comment or action, the personal planet (point) begins to censor himself or herself, and spontaneity is lost. Distance between the two is created, and a sense of being stifled, restricted, and censored slowly erodes the bond that felt so darn good at the beginning of their relationship. The personal planet (point) person feels like he or she has to constantly monitor what he or she does or says in the presence of the Saturn person.

Karma is associated with Saturn, where the personal planet/point person feels some sort of personal debt to the Saturn person. The Saturn person seems to have the upper hand in the relationship, at least for a while. Both parties must be more mindful of what exactly they are doing. A balance is possible, as the personal planet/point person may benefit from Saturn's impositions, at least ones that are not purely based on fear. Maybe the personal planet/point person does need to learn to be more responsible and could benefit from some maturation, and Saturn can learn to loosen up in certain ways. Reacting defensively to each other will only exacerbate the problem.

Although parallels are likened to conjunctions, when Saturn is parallel a personal planet in synastry, the interplay is easier than the conjunction. The Saturn person is not as inclined to criticism or control. Rather, the stabilizing influence of Saturn is more prominent.

i forgot to mention this above, in the relationship i mentioned my saturn was not only conjunct his DC, it was parallel it too. maybe this helped off-set some of the difficulty that comes with saturn, i don't know. (it sort of felt that way - it was in some ways a sobering & significant connection that felt very grounded and nice.)

is there a declinational tie there as well? that might help to ease things a bit.

i took this from a report i dug up:

This aspect, of Saturn in opposition with another's Ascendant, indicates a practical side to the relationship that can feel like limitation, duty or burdens of some kind. This represents a purposeful interaction, but also indicates restriction, lack, and some form of discipline, perhaps self-imposed, experienced by the partners. Perhaps you delay your meetings until all desirable considerations are in readiness. The imposed control is likely to be felt most strongly by the AC person. The discipline and restriction engendered by this partnership can be productive as well, and helpful in working through problems together. In a romantic context, there may be control attributed to one partner by the other. One partner, most likely the Saturn person, may also feel lingering doubts that the relationship will work out, that their partner is really attainable. Your relationship is inclined towards serious effort and practicality, even in romance, such as having stable agreements and workable conditions. This can be difficult for both of you to live up to, yet your relationship may also be quite productive, supporting a long-term bond with each other. There is likely to be a tendency toward practical and effective daily function, in which one partner will produce to insure the relationship in some way. The ability to bear burdens and share tasks with each other is part of all this, and as long as the serious tone doesn't get too heavy, your relationship can survive and perhaps even excel with this aspect.

i think it is extremely interesting that he is the saturn part of the equation. i'd like to hear how this pans out.

chrissy