posted January 28, 2006 07:42 PM            

Hey thanks for reminding me -- I have the rest of the Pluto stuff by Steven Forrest on my To-Do List and haven't run them yet

posted January 28, 2006 08:42 PM            

Where are your Moon & Pluto (house/sign)?? I have a Moon/Neptune/Pluto yod (Moon/Pluto quincunx) so I'm quite interested in the aspects too.....

Proofing now, will post in its own thread.....

posted January 30, 2006 09:44 PM            

Sun at 23 16'47" Aries / 9th house
Mars at 6 4'17" Taurus / 9th house
Mercury at 10 47'58" Taurus / 9th house
Venus at 0 22'16" Gemini / 10th house
Jupiter at 10 29'13"r Sagittarius / 4th house
Uranus at 8 43'24"r Sagittarius / 4th house
North node at 27 3'33" Gemini / 10th house
Chiron at 25 13'39" Taurus / 10th house

posted January 30, 2006 10:56 PM            

Thanks for posting your natal stats. I see you have the out-of-sign Pluto/Saturn conjunction like my friend WaterNymph -- did you see this thread??
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/008084.html

Have you read Liz Greene's "Saturn - A New Look At An Old Devil"?? I've posted bits from it here at LL, wouldn't mind redoing them if you're interested.....

PS: My friend GemStar wants to know where you got that long quote in the Venus in Scorpio thread -- it was from the old HoroscopeCHAT but it's not there at the site anymore(??)

posted January 30, 2006 11:11 PM            

In response to your saturn question, I don't know if I have read the book. If the interpretation is the same Liz Greene interpretation that was up on horoscopes chat then I have derfinitely read the third house saturn interpretation. That was part of the printed out material. I dont really recall if there was any sign interpretation listed from her books at all. If you could, post the scorpio and third house info or give a link to the thread.

Thanks.

posted January 30, 2006 11:32 PM            

Thanks for the note about HoroscopeCHAT -- I too did some copying when the entire contents of the site was up, and kick myself for not being more diligent..... a hard lesson learned ("get it while you can", "strike while the iron is hot" )

You wrote Also, in my chart, would you include the ascendant in a kite pattern and my north node in a mystic rectangle pattern. Ascendant is out of sign and I don't know if it would be included in a major configuration even it was in sign. Same goes for the node in being included in a major configuration.

There are astrologers who do count the angles, and the points, in aspect configurations. Tim Wilson gives me a Grand Sextile, but I don't know if I'm ready to own it yet, still want to absorb more information before I decide that's part of my "map"..... If it were just me, I would count the angles as very important in transits/progressions, but not part of the basic energies of the birth chart, but I repeat, that's only my personal preference.....

I'm not sure what of Liz Greene's was up at HoroscopeCHAT, but back about 30 topics-pages or so here, I posted her chapters on Saturn in all the elements and houses, think it was last summer, back around the time Saturn entered Leo..... if you can't find 'em, give me a holler. Before that, last spring I think, I posted a bunch of her Neptune interps too.....

posted January 30, 2006 11:59 PM            

My email is : noobsaibot1983@yahoo.com

If you can email them or post them that will be fantastic. I can send you all the moon, venus, pluto, nodes, and asteroids info no probelm if you want them. And all exceptions up top I can send you except the ones that are enclosed in brackets. Those are the interps I have that are printed out paper-copies and not digitally saved copies. Those ones I would have to type up and I don't know when I would be able to type them. Mars in cancer is the mars interp that I have a digital copy of. All other mars ones not mentioned are printed out paper-copies.

I unfortunately do not have a scanner to scan the paper copies. Any material you have from the site that I dont would be fantastic to get. Especially merc in taurus and saturn in scorpio. the only two interp for my chart I don't have copies of.

posted February 12, 2006 04:22 PM            

I looked thru the astro-library in my C:\ drive and cannot find much from horoscopechat ..... after I've done some file maintenance (so I can find things more easily!!) I'll get what I have emailed to you.....

For now, here's Liz Greene from "Saturn - A New Look At An Old Devil". There are two parts, Saturn in the Airy Signs and Houses, and Saturn in Gemini/3rd.....

quote:

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Saturn In the Airy Signs and Houses
The element of air is related to the principle of the logical mind, and it is this principle which ultimately differentiates man from the lower kingdoms of nature and allows him to observe himself—that is, to become self-conscious. Because of this exclusively human attribute, it may be observed that the three airy signs form the only trigon which does not incorporate animal symbolism but is expressed through either a human or an inanimate symbol. The other three elements are represented by at least two bestial symbols each. Although Virgo, ruled by a mental planet, is linked with a human symbol, Taurus and Capricorn are represented by animals; and although Sagittarius is connected with a half-human symbol, Aries and Leo are also symbolised by animals. The watery trigon is portrayed completely by creatures from the animal kingdon and is the most instinctual of the elements, relating to the function of feeling. Although we do not yet understand precisely what the mind is from a scientific point of view, or where it is located, or by what laws it functions, we can get some idea of its nature by observation of its behaviour. And we can at least understand that it is mind that permits man to call himself man.
All three airy signs, the houses associated with them, and the planets that rule them deal with one aspect or another of mind and the human need to exchange information with others and with the environment. All living things exchange information with their environment, and this is a biological process common to unicellular creatures as well as to man. But only man analyses his information and is aware of it as information. The ancient symbol for man is the pentagram or five-pointed star, and the number five has always traditionally been associated with both man and with Mercury, the significator of mind. Following this line of thought, we can see a correlation with the fact that five divided into the circle of three hundred and sixty degrees yields the quintile aspect of seventy-two degrees, one which is associated with skill and the possession of an unusual mental capacity—the province of Mercury—and which is also associated with sexual ambiguity—also the province of Mercury who was an androgynous figure in mythology. All of these associations help to illuminate the nature of the airy trigon.
The faculty of detachment, or of dissociation from the ordinary vehicles of life, is apparent only in the element of air. Each is logical, but it is dependent for its function on the matter in which the person is immersed. Water and fire are irrational elements and evaluate and experience life through the feeling nature and the intuition respectively. It would appear that thought is the basis of all manifestation, an idea which is familiar enough to the esotericist but which can only be demonstrated in an empiric way through the behaviour of man who must first conceive of a thing before he can attach emotional value to it and work to produce it in tangible form. We know very little about the real power of thought but are beginning to discover through research that thought, if concentrated, has the power to effect physical changes and may be communicated without benefit of physical implements—a phenomenon we call telepathy. We know as little about the real nature of telepathy as we do about the other "psi" phenomena which appear to be linked to the creative powers of the human mind. The dim outline of a picture is slowly emerging which suggests that mind is an attribute which is very close to our theological definitions of the attributes of deity.
If we consider that the airy signs are connected with the enormous potential of the human mind in its creative aspect, a rather sad fact presents itself: the great majority of people are not able to utilise the potential of this element for they have not yet developed the capacity to think. A person can be born with a natal chart which shows a predominance of planets in air, but this does not necessitate his being able to express these planets in a manner which partakes of the divine nature of the creative mind. What we consider ideas are frequently opinions, and these are not the same thing; this is particularly true of ideas which become ideologies. The faculty of detachment is not often to be met; instead, we may perceive a coldness which is the result of fear, rather than true detachment, or a rigid control of the feeling nature which is based on a terror of its potency. Of all the kingdoms of nature only man aspires to intellectual creativity, and even many men do not aspire so high but limit themselves to physical and emotional concerns. For the man who is trying to polarise himself mentally, and who is attempting to learn the nature of his mental equipment, frustration is far more subtle and less observable than the frustration of physical or emotional expression. If we consider the idea that Saturn always offers an opportunity to develop the function or quality associated with the element in which he is placed—and this refers to either sign or house—then we may consider that Saturn in the airy signs and houses brings about, through frustration of the creative mind and a blocking of the capacity to utilise it as a tool for communication and relating, a finer and stronger capacity for the use of thought as a creative act and as a tool for the integration of the psyche.
Saturn is dignified in Aquarius and exalted in Libra and is at least reasonably comfortable in Gemini. Seriousness, concentration, and stability are considered fitting attributes for the mind, and Saturn in air certainly offers these possibilities. The "scientific mind"—in spite of its dangerous penchant for narrowness and prejudice—is at present fashionable in our society and is responsible for the major technological advances of this century. We tend to place great emphasis on logic and tend to look askance upon the intuitive or mystical approach to life, for the last two thousand years of history have demonstrated amply the dangers of the devotional path. This is one of the more extreme qualities of Saturn in air for when he is unconscious, he is a personification of the objective and scientific intellect in its most separative aspect. Yet these qualities are not truly those of air; they are rather the qualities which result when air is not permitted its natural circulation and synthesis to and fro between minds and between people. The great difficulty with Saturn in air is that he may be accepted in this kind of sterile guise because it is currently considered the apex of normality. He may not be permitted to finish his task of destroying and rebuilding the values of a particular area of life, and the finer uses of his placement in air may never be expressed. Instead there is an ever-present sense of loneliness and isolation, a fear of the irrational elements within oneself, and a fine capacity for concentration and thoroughness which masks a sense of intellectual inadequacy or a feeling of social isolation.
Saturn's primary manner of expression in the unconscious man is through loneliness, fear, and frustration. This may be expressed through the limitations of matter, as is the case with earth, or through denial of the needs of the feeling nature, as is the case with water. When he is placed in air, he is related to mental isolation, and the person with Saturn in an airy sign or house must often struggle with loneliness because he finds it difficult to communicate with others. His thoughts are often of a deep and inquiring kind for his isolation will frequently lead him to question his values; and he is often inept at the kind of light and superficial relating which is commonly attributed to airy personalities. His task is to explore the potentials of the mind so that he can become its master, and this does not permit him easy comradeship with others. We will rarely hear him complain of his loneliness for it is not of the feeling nature, and he does not often express the "neurotic" personality which accompanies emotional frustration. Nor is he unhappy in the ordinary sense of the word for we usually apply this to disappointments of the feelings or the desire nature. He will generally suffer his isolation in silence.
Obviously the understanding and control of the mind are gifts which can only be developed when there is a reasonable degree of mental activity expressed, and a man who has Saturn placed in air must first begin to use his mind before he can begin to make of it a beam of light to shine into the darker areas of his psyche. The presence of Saturn in air on the birth chart, however, would appear to suggest that these stages in growth are fully capable of achievement by the person who must deal with an airy Saturn.

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posted February 12, 2006 04:43 PM            

quote:

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Saturn in Gemini and the third house
The third house symbolises the sphere of the intellectual, of education, communication, and movement. It offers some indication of the kind of mind a man possesses, the manner in which he goes about developing it, how he communicates, and the subjects which provide food for his intellectual nourishment. Gemini seeks information for its own sake rather than for a material end and is simply curious about life and the diversity of its manifestations. As the first airy sign, it is the intellectual flexing its own muscles. Unlike its opposite sign, Sagittarius, which seeks to correlate the diverse fragments of life and find among them a common meaning which reflects a larger concept, Gemini is content to revel in diversity. The third house reflects this aspect of the mind and this tendency to perceive, analyse, differentiate, label, and then move on. In order to acquire the information necessary for this kind of relation to life, communication must be established so that knowledge can flow back and forth and new interpretations can be given to old material.
Saturn in the third house, when he is functioning in an unconscious way, has a tendency to block this breathing in and breathing out; he places strain on the faculty of easy communication and often produces a fear of that which is new, unexplored, and irrational. The flight of the mind is grounded by the demand for empiric information, for that which has been tried and proven safe. From this we may see some reason for the connexion often suggested between Saturn's associations with Gemini, the third house, and Mercury, and diseases of the lungs, particularly asthma, an illness which medical science recognises as psychosomatic or functional in nature. There appears to be a symbolic relationship between the biological phenomenon of breathing, whereby oxygen is brought into the body, and the psychological need for intake of information about the environment. Both appear to be equally necessary for survival, the former for bodily survival, the latter for psychic survival.
There are various external situations which are often associated with a third house Saturn, but they all tend to reflect this symbolic inability to breathe freely with the intellect. The individual who as a child is denied education, or given a narrow and restrictive education, is common, and this often mars his capacity to approach life with fresh mental interest later because his creative mental faculties have never been stimulated. Equally frequent is the only child who is denied companionship and communication with others of his own age and finds that later in life he has lost the faculty for spontaneous communication. Often there is fear behind the apparent paralysis of the mind which sometimes occurs. The child may be considered stupid because he is silent, or he may have been constantly criticised for his speech and has learned to keep his thoughts to himself, and later on, when there is no longer a disapproving parent or teacher to criticise, he finds that he has lost the capacity to share his innermost thoughts. Speech defects and difficulties also occur frequently with Saturn in the third house. These are often functional and are based on fear and insecurity, such as stuttering or stammering. Also common is the individual who simply cannot communicate easily, particularly about those personal and ordinary matters which are the traditional province of the third house. He may display unusual mental gifts, concentration, and depth of thought, but he finds it most painful to participate in the "small talk" which serves as a symbolic gesture of common humanity. To the man with Saturn in the third house, speech must contain items of serious interest, and he may display an unusually pedantic quality in his speech and his writing, for Saturn dislikes superficiality.
With all of these various expressions the common thread remains, and it is connected with the frustration of the mind and of communication. There is inevitably a feeling of isolation with this placement because the mind is generally deep and by nature serious, and there is usually some fear of being humiliated or of sounding silly or foolish to others. There is frequently a feeling of inadequacy about the mental equipment although Saturn in the third house is often a brilliant scholar. The brilliance, however, is rarely from intuition but rather from many long hours of painful concentration and self-discipline. Information must be concrete and provable to be of use to Saturn, and this tendency to crystallisation of knowledge is antithetical to the light and purposeless meanderings of the third house. To Mercury all information is of use, even if it is not the truth.
The phenomenon of overcompensation may also be observed with Saturn in the third house. Often the individual may be one of those who "talks a blue streak", and this tendency to loquaciousness—apparently in contradiction to the ordinary reading of Saturn here—is also apparent with Mercury-Saturn configurations and with Mercury in Capricorn as well. Inevitably the subject of conversation will range in every field except those which truly mean something to the individual. He will say many things but will rarely say what he actually feels. He is no closer to communicating than is the more taciturn individual with the same placement. Saturn in the third house has a reputation for tact, diplomacy, and a canny mind, and this tendency to circumlocution is very useful to a statesman or politician; it is often one of the greatest gifts of a third house Saturn. But this does not ease the isolation of the individual; it only increases it for he cannot truly express himself.
The more silent type of third house Saturn is a more typical expression. His field of interest may often be an earthbound and occasionally a narrow one although he will generally be careful, thorough and methodical in his thinking. Sometimes one may meet a kind of thick-headed, obstinate, almost deliberate stupidity with Saturn in the third house, and it is difficult to imagine that this creature and the brilliant mental gymnastics of the accomplished statesman may reflect a similar inner sense of fear and inability to share personal thoughts and feelings. But Saturn is rarely stupid. He may tend to cling to that which is pragmatically provable because he feels uneasy in lighter and more irrational realms. Saturn in the third house often underrates his intellectual capacities and may raise a shield of rather stubborn or dogmatic opinions to protect himself against the onslaught of those he considers more clever than himself.
When this placement is seen from the point of view of the opportunity offered, the sense of isolation and impatience with superficial ideas and attitudes may become an inner striving for truth, insofar as this is capable of perception by the human mind. The individual is turned inward by his circumstances and his fears so that he seeks reasons for things and begins to explore their structure and meaning. The inquiring mind dedicated to the intellectual under-standing of those things which are shrouded in mystery, or belong to the realm of the irrational, is characteristic of the man with Saturn in the third house who has accepted his apparent isolation in the face of the more meaningful contribution he is able to make to the sphere of knowledge. Saturn only becomes dogmatic when the man is afraid of the unknown and of his own lack of knowledge and of intellectual training. The suggestion with Saturn's placement in the third house is that the knowledge must be acquired through experience and personal observation, and that the training must be taken from life itself. No other education will suffice because to the person with this placement, Saturn's inner strength and independence must be applied to the development of the mind.
There is often a connexion drawn between accidents — particularly those occuring during travel—and the third house. As this house is linked with mental and physical motion and coordination, it is often called the house of short journeys, both of the body and the mind. It is of some value to explore this idea of accidents and of what is called the accident-prone tendency as it is often suggested by afflicted planets, particularly Saturn, in the third house. It is possible to assume a completely empiric attitude to this question and to accept the idea that by some mysterious law, or by the hand of fate, Saturn in the third house precipitates accidents—and that if one has an accident, that is one's fate. This same attitude may be applied to many of the darker expressions of Saturn's placements, and this inevitably poses questions which can only be answered philosophically rather than empirically; however, this sort of blind passivity in the face of a totally predestined future is in direct antithesis to any constructive interpretation of Saturn or, for that matter, with any other factor on the natal chart. If we are indeed circumscribed by the boundaries of fate or our "karma", we cannot know where this boundary lies in the individual's case until we attempt to pass it. It is very possible that the boundary varies from person to person.
It is apparent that in many instances Saturn in the third house is concurrent with a fear of those things which are new, untried, irrational, or uncontrollable and which require a genuine sharing of minds on a personal level. Psychology has recognised for a long time that many apparently accidental injuries and illnesses are in reality a kind of arrangement, constructed by the unconscious mind of the individual, to avoid a situation which looms in the future or to achieve attention or power within the personal environment. This kind of situation occurs with some frequency in the case of Saturn in the sixth house where it is often expressed through illness or hypochondria. It is often expressed as an accident-prone tendency with Saturn in the third house, and it will usually be found in these cases that if the individual's inner life is examined with some care, the motive for the incapacitation will emerge with clarity. This does not mean that all accidents stem from this kind of "arrangement". But many do. Sometimes a few weeks in a bed, although physically uncomfortable, is preferable to confronting a situation which requires change or a new outlook.
It is inconceivable to many people that a man could deliberately injure himself or make himself sick because he does not wish to deal with a problem in his life. It is not the conscious personality which decides such things but the forces of the unconscious, which are fully capable under certain exceptional conditions of even destroying the man, physically or psychically—the latter being termed insanity. We know very little about the amount of power contained in the darker portions of the psyche, but we are learning that it merits our respect and our careful handling. Saturn is frequently responsible for the repression of fears and resentments because he is symbolic of the shadow, and the ordinary man does not wish to consider that the qualities he despises the most may exist within his own psyche; nor will he readily admit that his judgment may be in error and that these qualities can be positive, constructive, and of use to him.
The acceptance of responsibility necessary for a comprehension of Saturn is not the mea culpa which condemns, but a recognition that the human mind may have more power over the arrangement of one's outer circumstances than we care to admit and that there is much that we do not know about ourselves. When this attitude is related to accident-proneness and to Saturn in the third house, it is possible to avoid the necessity of an accident if the unpleasant situation precipitating it is recognised. Even if one considers the reality of karmic obligations, it is unlikely that anything occurs to a human being which is not necessary for his growth or the growth of the group, and the orderly beauty of life as it is reflected by the horoscope scarcely implies that random and senseless suffering is part of that order. Saturn always strives for the truth; it is man's fear of this motivation within himself that brings about the catastrophe, for the relentless search for reality as symbolised by Saturn threatens his most cherished illusions.

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posted February 12, 2006 05:07 PM            

quote:

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Neptune in the 4th House

The 4th house is traditionally associated with roots, home, and family background. There is a certain amount of controversy about whether this house represents the experience of father or mother. I do not wish to deal here with this controversy; it is covered sufficiently elsewhere, and theinterpretation which follows reflects my own view, that the 4th house is the domain of the father, both personal and, perhaps more importantly, archetypal. Father, when viewed through the lens of myth, embodies the realm of the spirit, the invisible progenitor who rules in heaven and continues to look after his children even when they are unaware of it. This spiritual father is a repeating motif in the legends and myths of every culture; he mates with mortal women and breeds a race of heroes who enact the divine will on Earth. His invisibility, and the conferring of a sense of destiny on his offspring, combine to make the domain of the 4th house one of mystery, where something hidden must be sought. The archetypal father provides the eternal spark of divine life which animates that body from within. In a particular individual's life, this experience of a spiritual rather than a corporeal source might be linked more with the mother, if exceptional circumstances occur in infancy. But ordinarily we experience an intimate bodily relationship with the mother because of being born from her body, while the father's physical distance confers a quality of unknowability on him. It is this unknowability which is reflected in the archetypal image of the hidden progenitor who embodies the ultimate meaning of one's life journey.

The sense of a "me-in-here" provided by the IC and 4th house lends an inner unity to all thoughts, feelings, perceptions and actions. In the same way that we are biologically self-maintaining and self-regulating, the IC and 4th house serve to maintain the individual characteristics of the self in a stable form.
-- Howard Sasportas

When Neptune is placed in the 4th house, the place of redemption is the realm of the spiritual source, embodied in the personal father. Because we project the figure of the redeemer, who both suffers and heals, into whatever house Neptune tenants, this victim-saviour will permeate the experience of the father and colour the individual's emotional attitude toward him. Reality seems to conspire with this projection, as it usually does with parental significators in the birth chart; for often in one's childhood the father is physically absent through separation, divorce, or death, or has suffered inordinately, or is emotionally or physically ill. Thus he may provide an excellent hook on which to hang the projection, and the closer Neptune is to the IC, the more obvious this hook seems to be. Often the father will himself be strongly Neptunian, with a birth chart emphasis in Pisces or the 12th house, or Neptune dominant through conjuncting an angle or aspecting the Sun or Moon. The elusive, inaccessible qualities of Neptune, perceived in the parent, seem to mirror back to the individual the lost magic of the Paradise Garden—even if these feelings are unconscious.
Idealisation plays a large part in these feelings. Compassion for the victim, and yearning for the healing touch of the redeemer, are often powerful components in the emotional bond with the father, who may well have possessed unusual imaginative gifts—even if they were not acknowledged or expressed. There is often a great sadness around the experience of the father, because he seemed unavailable or uncommunicative. If one does not acknowledge these complex feelings, there may be a conscious attitude of anger or disinterest. But the quest for a lost spiritual home in the form of a father-surrogate – often a guru or spiritual teacher—can become a major motivation in the individual's life, without any recognition of the role the personal father plays in this longing. This does not mean that the pursuit of a more transcendent reality is merely sublimated love for the father. But if the beloved spiritual father is sought in surrogate forms, then Neptunian disillusionment will generally ensue. A woman with Neptune in the 4th may seek the father-redeemer in the form of married or otherwise unavailable men, wondering why such a pattern occurs in her life, and failing to recognise her deeper feelings for a father whom, on a conscious level, she professes to dislike or despise. A man with Neptune in the 4th may try to compensate, through a show of strength and rationality, for what he experienced as a weak and disappointing father. Then he may wonder why he feels lost and depressed despite his external achievements, failing to recognise his longing for a father whom he believes let him down. Neptune's idealisation is filled with poignant yearning. When any person with Neptune in the 4th dismisses the father as unimportant, unlovable, or uninteresting, there are generally much deeper issues at work beneath.
A sense of rootlessness may plague those with Neptune in the 4th. No physical abode is home; no village, city or country is the place where one truly belongs. This state of divine discontent may produce a wanderer who travels everywhere but settles nowhere. Dreams of finding, or creating, a perfect environment may become a major life goal. It is useful to consider the 4th house Neptune in the chart of Rajneesh (see chapter 7) in this context. Yet although the Neptunian longing for a realm which does not exist on earth may be painful, it can also allow the individual to avoid those rigid and clannish identifications with neighbourhood and nation which breed so much prejudice and intolerance. Most importantly, it can open the doors to a sense of connection with all life, regardless of the obligations of family, nation, or race. The sadness of Neptune's homelessness can, to a great extent, be mitigated by a lunar experience of closeness with others, especially those not bound by blood. Idealisation of the father may be expressed as idealisation of family life, which often turns out to be disappointing. The greater one's expectations of the family as a source of redempton, the more painful the disillusionment one may have to face. One may need to find a family of another kind, born of friendship and emotional affinity, where one can experience the reality of ordinary human support and affection. Although the real home may be over the hills and far away, the home of everyday companionship may, for Neptune in the 4th, be fulfilling enough to render this world a satisfying place.

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posted February 13, 2006 12:11 PM              

Thank you for posting the information about Neptune in the 4th.

I have this placement. My Neptune is in Sag, and my father is a Sag. He and my mother were divorced when I was young. Luckily for me, he fought to see us as often as the decree allowed, and when I was 14, my brothers and I were placed in his custody.

I am very close to him, then and now. (Just found out his birthtime last week--my Sun, Venus and Mars are conj. his Asc. and Venus!) If I weren't so lucky to have him in my life, I know that I would have been drawn to find another father figure.