posted February 01, 2006 01:29 AM              

Anyway though, that brings me to my point. My goal is to convince him, even if it's just a little bit, that astrology is a fact. Hopefully his narrow minded, stubborn views don't refuse to budge after he sees some facts. I've been cruising google trying to find SOME information that could help me out that won't completely confuse him because he obviously knows NOTHING about astrology, however it's really difficult to find proof when every study I look at is discrediting astrology. I need to find something with facts to back it up since that's all he will be pleased with. So this brings me to my question

Can anyone PRETTY PLEASE WITH CHERRIES ON TOP share with me anything they know that can help me? Be it articles, studies, ANYTHING to help me get my foundation started. I would be soo very grateful.

Gosh it seems like such a never ending battle and I just wish that everyone felt the same way I do about astrology. It's helped me so much in terms of knowing myself and I know that astrology definitely has never once caused anyone harm. One day though, everyone will know, i'm sure of it.

posted February 01, 2006 01:52 AM            

I came to believe in it partially through reading Love signs I think it was. I was reading about Taurus' and it was describing my best friend... so I called him up. Sure enough he was a Taurus.

My suggestion is not to debate the whole 'star' aspect of it. You two may never agree on that.

I would start with historical evidence. The easiest argument to make is one that can't be denied. No matter how hard you try you can't deny that astrology has been around thousands of years. Nothing lasts that long without merit especially not where humans are concerned. It resonates as strongly in it's believers as any religion does with it's believers.

posted February 01, 2006 02:22 AM              

Think about it like this... what do you instinctively do when someone throws a ball at your face? You cover your face. What do you do when someone hands it to you? You take it from them.

"Any logical person who possesses deductive reasoning skills would never think it possible that the STARS actually control us".-->Any logical person who possesses deductive reasoning skills would never immediately assume that (s)he knows something is true or not without real hard evidence.

So here is some...
-->The human menstrual cycle is very similar to the moon's cycle. The average length of the human menstrual cycle is about 28 days, which is closer to the moon's cycle than any other menstruating animal. Experiments have shown that women with irregular menstrual cycles have become more regular by sleeping with a soft light on in their rooms (to stand in for the light of a full moon) during the fourteenth, fifteenth and sixteenth days of their cycle, the days they would ideally be ovulating. After a few months, their cycles regulate. This is called the Dewan effect, and it seems to show a connection between light and the menstrual cycle. The reproductive cycles of many animals are actually regulated by lunar cycles.
-->The moon causes the tides to go up and down. Billions of tons of water are pulled straight up every night by the moon. We are about 3/4 water or something. Now scientists will argue that the gravitational pull of the moon on a human body is less than that exerted by your average gnat. I don't think that a sky-darkening swarm of gnats over the Pacific ocean can exert enough gravity to pull it up . Maybe there are forces we don't know about yet...
-The word lunacy comes from the word lune (moon in french), because it was believed that people are more emotional during a full moon.
-Not surprisingly, the moon in astrology shows emotional patterns and attitudes towards the mother-basically our feminine nature.
-Astrology has existed for thousands of years with very little change in its interpretations and what it teaches.
-The easiest way to show proof is through statistics...someone mentioned here that Aquarians tend to write with their left hand, and I just thought "Holy cr@p! I can think of 4 aquarians right off the top of my head who write with their left hand!" Also a lot of geminis and some librans are lefties.
-You will notice that psychology classes are full to the brim with sagittarians, especially upper year classes.

posted February 01, 2006 04:25 AM              

As Oddball suggests,if you're going to do anything, i would start coming at it from the Moon and Tides side of things.. something grounded in what he would consider, the 'Real'.

However, he doesn't sound too flexible in his opinions, so don't waste too much energy trying to open his eyes.
You know the useful part astrology plays in your life ... if he wants to miss out, let him.

I hate the way folk whip out this lame argument about 'only twelve types of people' - immediately proving they haven't taken any trouble to actually research the subject they're dissing! (and anyway, complexities of individual charts aside for a moment, how many people do you know that remind you of other people? I know that that happens a lot with me as i get older and meet more folk.
So I don't think it's such a outlandish idea to suggest that there *are* actually only twelve *basic* 'types' of people - but infinite variations within each type, of course! )

Well done you, anyway, for saying your bit.. i would have had the hankies out in the first five seconds, under that sort of verbal abuse.

posted February 01, 2006 05:41 AM            

I've had many debates with scientifically minded people, and let me tell you, it can be easier to get blood from a stone than it is to get rationalization from a scientist! I am a follower of science myself also, I've studied quantum physics in detail, with the purpose of applying it to my own 'less-scientific' work, and it becomes apparent that science can be severely limited. I've noticed quantum physicists to be a little more open minded than classical physicists, purely because they are aware of the 'supernatural' elements in the universe, QP really is the study of the weird! Many of the classical scientific community are very rude in objecting to something they do not believe in/know about. It can be frustrating because scientists live by the motto of debate - references/evidence at 40 paces - although it is all too common to find they are dismissing your claims (such as astrology) due to PERSONAL BELIEF rather than the evidence out there in the world to support such a claim. How can this be rational, scientific thinking? Science is supposed to be objective, not subjective, however unfortunately much of science has become a religion - convinced of its own dogma, and negligent of anything challenging the dogma.

Sorry, I had to say that. As someone who studies science, it gets my passion (Aries moon maybe? ) flowing.

There is A LOT of scientific evidence to support Astrology as a science. Speaking from a personal perspective, I do not believe ALL of astrology is a science, but the core elements of it - definitely. Your professor said that astrology puts people into different 'boxes', that’s true, we have the 12 signs, although the composition of these 12 signs in a natal chart create a unique fingerprint, so the 12 becomes the magical, simplicity becomes complexity. But science has so many different 'boxes', it’s impossible to keep count anymore, astrology’s 12 boxes looks humble by comparison.

The important aspect here, is to ask the question; Are these 12 boxes serving any purpose? Yes of course! Human beings establish their relation to the world by grouping things, that’s how our minds work, that’s how we can correlate relationships between seemingly unconnected objects. There is absolutely nothing wrong with 'boxing' something, as long as you retain the image of wholeness within your mind - so you see the bigger picture.

Your professor obviously has very little knowledge of Cosmology if he has dismissed astrology so quickly.
Let’s start with the Sun. I will only very briefly mention the other planets here, but I have included an article from a renowned scientist, regarding the magnetic influence of the planets on our organisms (its link is at the bottom, there is a lot of data there).

The Suns magnetic field stretches out far into our solar system. It communicates with all the planets held in its aura in a number of ways - be it radio waves, the visible light spectrum, infra-red, ultra-violet, x-rays, solar wind (will mention more about this soon).
So the Sun is constantly 'talking' to the other planets. Alright, it may not be the same kind of dialogue we are all familiar with on Earth, like 'how’s the weather?'; or 'Are we there yet mummy?'; but the dialogue is a deep and profound one. It resonates with us on all levels, whether it be biological, chemical (in the brain), geological, and the subtler energies of our own electro-magnetic fields. And yes, it is SCIENTIFIC FACT that each human IS an electro-magnetic field of energy (just like a star or planet).

Question:- How much does the Sun actually influence us?

Oddball pointed out above, that the Moon is responsible for exerting force upon our bodies, or indeed the Earths bodies (oceans) due to its gravitational pull. The Sun's gravitational pull affects us in similar ways, but there are also many other components at work.
The Sun has a 'push' as well. These are in the form of Solar Winds. It is best if I describe the Sun in a little more detail before I explain the solar wind.

posted February 01, 2006 05:42 AM            

A sunspot is an intense area of magnetism, and if this area becomes unstable, it can 'burst its bubble' and spew out into the surrounding universe, we call these 'Solar Flares'. When a solar flare erupts, it sends out gazillions (nice word) of particles streaming towards us at the speed of light. These particles can either be negatively charged (electrons, just like you get inside televisions), or they can be positively charged particles - protons. The type of particle emission depends on the sunspot that has just flared out... like I said the sun has a 'quadripole', and some areas of this pole are positively charged, some are negatively charged. So let’s say, a sunspot was seen in the positively charged area of the sun - if that sunspot flared out, then it would send protons hurtling towards us.

These particles have a significant effect on Earth. They may be tiny, but hey, it’s not the size that matters, its you do with it Err anyway.. this stream of energy approaching Earth can be called 'The Solar Wind'.

So How do these particles affect Earth?

The aurora borealis is a direct result of these particles slamming into the Earths atmosphere and creating the dancing beautiful lights. Let’s look at a recent case of a solar flare, and see how it affected us;
On March 5th 1989, a massive x-ray flare erupted from the Suns surface, lasting a little over 2 hours. It was one of the biggest solar events this century, in fact it was so large, it overloaded the sensors and equipment the scientists were using to monitor it. The flare had emanated from a cluster of sunspots. Obviously, these particles take some time to reach us (they start out at the speed of light and then slow down), so on March 8th we had a 'Solar Proton Event'. (Therefore we know that the flare originated from a positively charged area of the Sun, because it was sending out protons, not electrons)
8th March, a large quantity of these began to flow to Earth on the Solar Wind, this continued up until March 13th, and this was to have an incredible effect on the Earths magnetic field. It created violent magnetic storms, millions of people were left without electricity, there were huge power surges in telephone lines, power grid transformers were overloaded, satellite communications were badly affected due to the 'noise' caused by this massive particle invasion, and incredibly the Aurora Borealis lights could be seen as far South as Southern England, and even sightings in Jamaica and Italy.

So, the Sun has a powerful effect on our planet, these particles carried on the Solar Wind influence EVERYTHING on our planet - even us. The Sun is still very much a mystery in many respects to today’s scientists, but there is one absolute certainty - THE PLANETS/SUN DO HAVE A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON THE ELECTRO-MAGNETIC MAKE-UP OF EVERYTHING IN THE SOLAR SYSTEM.

There have been many studies of the Suns cyclic changes in relation to human behavior. Maurice Cotterall tried linking sun cycles to human fertility rates, and find staggering evidence to support the claims of astrology.

Astrology Jeff Mayo and renowned psychologist Professor Hans Eyseneck carried out scientific studies on thousands of subjects to show a correlation between astrological birth sign and extrovert/introvert tendencies. Their results recorded a definite statistical tendency for people born under fire/air signs to be more extroverted, and those born under earth/water signs to be more introverted - the odds of this correlation mathematically was in the region of 10,000:1.

So, astrology as a 'core science' is quite profound and undoubtedly true. Only a fool would deny that the Sun or planets have no significant impact on us, only someone who has not bothered to study the evidence and implications of cosmology would label astrology as 'stupid'.
The only element of astrology I regularly challenge (and yes I do call a lot of astrology a 'non-science') are the interpretations. I don’t agree with many aspect interpretations, although I will state in the defense of interpretation - it is only through the exchange of wrong information that we eventually refine it and capture the truth. This is the area where many scientists disregard astrology as 'hocus-pocus', so it’s best not to focus on the interpretive side of the science if you are to debate it. Instead focus on the evidence that supports the planetary influences on our organism - there is a lot of depth and substance here, and if they still disagree, then smile and walk away, knowing their stubbornness is not worth your efforts to befriend.

On a last note, just a little quote from one of the most 'irrational and stupid' men in history;

""Astrology is a science in itself and contains an illuminating body of knowledge. It taught me many things, and I am greatly indebted to it. Geophysical evidence reveals the power of the stars and the planets in relation to the terrestrial. In turn, astrology reinforces this power to some extent. This is why astrology is like a life-giving elixir for mankind".

Albert Einstein.

Charisma, You walk in the same footsteps as Albert, with imprints like his to follow, have confidence in your assertions.

Here is a link to the other scientific work for the planets. http://cura.free.fr/decem/09seym.html

posted February 01, 2006 06:08 AM            

My advice: don't waste your time on him, Charisma , he isn't worthy of it.

posted February 01, 2006 06:16 AM            

Exactly, Light is another paradox. For decades some scientists argued that Light was a particle, whilst others argued that Light was a wave-form, yet Einstein proved that light can behave as both wave AND particle. Quantum physicists do not take the classical physics observations for granted, because the tiny univserse (on a particle scale) behaves in often erratic and unpreditable ways that completely contradict classical observation. So they keep their minds open and invigorated to challenge and new theory.

In fact, theres one more thing I would like to mention, which has its roots in this discussion. There is a quantum theory known as 'entanglement', actually its more than a theory now, because it is the principle used to build recent quantum computers.

I'll explain this very very briefly - Entanglement is basically when two atoms collide at high speed (this happens all the time in our universe), and they become 'entangled' with each other (or joined, hmm lets say they have become married ) So now these two particles are married, there will come a time when they part again, sadly (divorce should never be an option!) Now, when these two lovers part, they each now carry a common bond between them, their union has caused some inextricable link to be created between them, like an invisible cord connecting their entities. So if Mr Particle left Mrs particle and moved to America, and Mrs Particle packed her bags and moved to France, they would be spearated by a lot of distance yes? Well... this is where time and space is something of an illusion.

Their previous union has created this invisible connection between Mr and Mrs paritcle, so it is possible for Mrs Particle to affect Mr Particle even at some distance. In fact, lets say Mrs particle was strolling through the French park, breathing in nolstalgic memories of her ex husband, then this arousal of their 'common bond' inside of her will trigger an effect in Mr Particle. The effect can be varied but limited. Example (and of course this is an offbeat example):- Lets say Mrs particle started thinking about Mr Particle on her walk, her bitter feelings surfaced, but the beautiful enviroment of the French park infuleneced her feelings to become more...tender. So during her walk, she transformed bitterness to tenderness sindie of her heart. Now.. If Mr Particle was sitting at his desk in America, and he were to daydream of Mrs Particle, at first his heart would surface the bitterness they left each other with, but now he notices his bitterness is more inbued with a touch of tenderness - the invisible link has allowed information to pass between them.

I know this is just a particle theory at the moment, but Ive been working on it personally, trying to find correlations to human dynamics. So, no mtter what the space of distance between two bodies, the connection can be an instantaneous and absolute one.

Therefore, the planets/sun are more part of us than we realise. We have a saying; "we are all made of stardust", in actual fact, we all contain stardust, and stardust contains us, we both tango together in a mutual dance. The Sun may be a very very very long way away, but its presence can be felt in zero time, based on the dynamics of entanglement (space and time are not prominent).

"And let there be light" God said...

"Whats light? Particle or Wave?" the scientist retorted

posted February 01, 2006 09:25 AM              

Here's what I would do if I cared enough about this teacher;

Have his chart drawn and read by a top notch astrologer who doesn't know him at all, then give it to him as a gift.

We all tend to defend our theories (and the teachers thereof) because we have investigated a great deal of energy in understanding them. Many people have a difficult time in accepting anything that calls into dispute those theories, because that also calls in to dispute our efforts.

If you don't want to invest what it would cost to have his chart done, then forget it. However if he persists in calling YOU names, turn him into the school. I've taught in colleges, and his behavior is beyond the accepted norm.

We all come to understanding in our own way at our own time, this may or may not be his time.

posted February 01, 2006 11:28 AM              

Lanny's idea is great! One of the best (and most expensive) astrologers is Noel Tyl (www.noeltyl.com). Another alternative is to read the teacher's chart to him yourself! The basics of astrology are straightforward and apply to everyone (link to my astrological teaching website below). With a little work you should be able to come up with an astrological description of him that is clearly unique to him and his energies and can not be shrugged off as some sort of generic "horoscope" interpretation.

Or you could point out to him that astrology predates astronomy! In fact, astrology was around LONG before there was a formal, separate "astronomy" science created. "Astrology" is literally from the Greek "star word", so naturally it was important to the ancients to get the word of the stars when you are studying the stars...and this pursuit of the "star word" continued for hundreds of years. The formal split between "astrology" and "astronomy" happened during the Renaissance, when those who were interested in the "star name" (a literal translation of the Greek "astronomy") separated themselves from those who were interested in the "star word". As a result, for many, the NAMES of the stars became more important than the MEANINGS of the stars. But the star meanings did not go away simply because fewer people were looking at them! The star meanings are always there to be seen for those who have "eyes to see".

Which brings me to Peri's excellent point. People who insist on revising history so it better fits their own limited view of the world (as do those who insist that astrology is some sort of modern, wacko creation) are NOT people who are open to new ideas. They see the world as they see it and can not imagine the world any another way. As Peri puts it very well "He won't listen to what he does not want to hear". So maybe it is best to concentrate on those who are open to astrology and all its self-tranformational power and let alone those who want to sit in the darkness alone with their limited, narrow view of the universe. Maybe, some day, they will decide to leave their caves and go out into the light.

Taking things lightly,

Tim

posted February 01, 2006 01:48 PM            

I would like to see what your Prof has to say about this definition:

QUANTUM NONLOCALITY

Superstring theory and other esoteric advances in physics are revealing that our reality is embedded in a much more expansive, higher-dimensional realm of pure energy – or pure spirit. The discovery of quantum nonlocality – the ability of particles to exert subtle influences on each other instantaneously across vast distances – is confirming the ancient mystical teaching that all things are profoundly interconnected. Quantum nonlocality might also explain extrasensory perception, as well as the miraculous healing that results from prayer and other spiritual practices.

It might also explain how the planets affect life on earth.....
Did anybody mention the Moon and tides and "lunatics" yet??

posted February 01, 2006 03:41 PM              

I've heard a little bit about this Quantum Nonlocality, and I've been on board with it.

posted February 02, 2006 05:29 AM              

Astrology is a divine blessing, you can only "Know" that it is true.

Let me quote Solomon:
"Thou shalt not cast pearls before swine."

Allow Karma to play out. He was rude to Sigourney and did not take into account her feelings about a Universal Truth. So at some stage he will undergo a lesson that will make him accept Astrology and apologize to Sigourney OR he will be made to look foolish in whatever he thinks he is an expert in.

posted February 03, 2006 11:27 PM              

now this fact is a 'presious information' you hold. and if u pass on this presious truth to human being who are generally uninterested in knowing then u can expect that this truth will be misused when it is realised by these individuals.

what am i trying to say? well don't convinice your prof. he is a jack ass. had he really been some one who wanted to pass on knowledge he would have made his point that "(according to him ) you are wrong" in a very polite way.
instead he just wanted to show u down and make u stand defeated. he is not a professor of philosophy for he doesnot want to interogate on a possibility.

never convince anyone of the truth. even if it is accepted it is most likely to be misused. its human nature.

and for those who have found out the truth themselves have evolved out of tendencies to do the 'wrong' and thus will never misuse it.

information is presious.

posted February 04, 2006 09:00 AM            

And I understand what others have been saying about 'not wasting time debating such a topic' with someone who appears ignorant. This is definitely applicable if we have made numerous attempts and failed miserably, only exhausting ourselves in the process. However, there is a way to connect with anyone if we find what is important to them. There is no need for us to label them ignorant and hopeless, we just need to make the effort to find out how they view their world, and seek to connect with them in ways that they understand - even with a philosophy lecturer.