posted April 18, 2006 06:07 PM              

When you have some time, would you mind taking a look at the following chart? It's my Mom's, whose birthtime I found out just recently (her mother had written it down). While I've spent some time over it already and know what some of the things likely point towards, I'd like to hear another opinion, since, naturally, I may be a little biased in this case . Plus, your eyes are much better trained in looking at charts, focusing in on the most relevant details and properly combining them to get the "big picture".

How about trying to take a guess from the chart regarding my Mom's possible interests/studies pursued/what field she was working in before marriage? It's just my personal curiosity speaking, it would be interesting to know if you can guess from the chart, because I'm not so sure it's that obvious (if at all) from an astrological point of view... (So don't worry if you don't have any idea, I certainly wouldn't have been able to guess from the chart if I didn't know )

posted April 19, 2006 02:25 AM              

I like to look for what a person COULD be doing. Just because they have a particular job doesn't mean that that's the job they are best at...or would like doing the most. So, I will take a look at your mother's chart to see what she MIGHT like to do...and see if I happen to get lucky and guess what she ACTUALLY did!

I usually begin "career" explorations by looking at Capricorn, Saturn, and 10th house (all have to do with career). Then I look for significant house focuses.

In the case of your mother's chart I see Saturn focused in the 7th house (relationships) trine (energy goes very easily with) Jupiter (expansion, also teaching) focused in the 11th house (friends). This indicates to me an interest in a teaching/learning career of some sort that involves relationships and social groups (friends, also restructuring). In addition, there is a stellium (collection of energy) in Capricorn focused near the 11th house. So maybe this teaching career had to with some sort of social restructuring (rebuilding young minds in some way?)

Another interesting thing is Pluto (transformation, also power) conjunct (energy is combined with) Descendant (others), indicating perhaps a need to have power over others. In addition, Pluto is in the sign of Leo (self-expression, also children), so maybe children are involved.

I'm going to guess she might have been a teacher. And that's my final answer!

Guessing,

posted April 19, 2006 06:09 AM              

Thanks for taking a guess! I'm feeling a bit foolish now for having asked you to guess, since we're not talking about an application of astrology aimed at future developments and thus at giving someone a tool for self-development, but about the past. It was probably the excitement about having learned of my Mom's birth time, after months of assuming she most likely would have no way of knowing - and, for this reason, not even having asked her for it -, that prompted me to post.

I understand your point of taking a look at what a person MIGHT like to do instead of what they actually are doing/did do, which, in fact, is exactly how I hoped you would go about, since I was wondering if an experienced astrologer might see clues that I initially thought weren't there. Any guesses NOT derived from looking at a chart would, of course, not have anything to do with astrology and not make too much sense in this context.
However, as for the perceived lack of clues, I've had to change my mind big-time after having read up on the kinds of occupations Saturn is traditionally associated with, and also remembering how you often mention in your posts that Saturn is about "structure". Given that my Mom has so many Capricorn planets (which surprised me a little at first, since, while "Capricorn" definitely seems to fit her, I don't see her as THAT Capricornian), that she has a Sun trine Saturn in her chart, and even her Aquarius Ascendant is co-ruled by Saturn (if I'm not mistaken there), I guess it would only seem natural that Saturn, and thus "structure", must play an important role in her life. She was lucky in actually being able to work in the field she had gone to university for and that she WANTED to work in, by the way, and it was not being a teacher! (Though I can well imagine this might also be something she would have enjoyed doing, so your guess was actually quite good! )
Her actual job was being an interior designer, which makes sense, after having learned that one of the "typical" Saturn occupations is in architecture (in German, the word corresponding to "architect" is also used for interior designers), and, of course, architecture, besides being a somewhat creative field, has a lot to do with...structure!

posted April 19, 2006 12:48 PM              

You said:

quote:

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...Her actual job was being an interior designer, which makes sense, after having learned that one of the "typical" Saturn occupations is in architecture...Do you see any major indicators in her chart pointing towards foreigners, foreign countries, travels and the like? I was SO surprised she has an empty 9th house (though Neptune sits rather close to the 9th house cusp), since, like me, she loves to travel and see different countries/places. Also, she attended university in a country different from the one she was born and grew up in, worked for a company that was owned by people from yet another country, had many foreign colleagues, and even married a foreigner (from yet ANOTHER country than the ones involved in her studies/work environment)...if it had been my Mom's chart instead of my own that I learned about first, I probably would have believed to have proof AGAINST the validity of astrology! I find it kind of hard to believe that her Venus in Sagittarius and Sun-Jupiter conjunction should be "enough" to explain the "foreign" focus...

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Well, I tried! As you mention, interior design makes sense because of "structure" but also because of the strong Leo (self-expression), since self-expression is also an important part of interior design.

Don't give up on astrology yet! As you mention, she has a planet VERY near the 9th house. And let's not forget about the close connection between Jupiter (expansion, also travel, foreign) and Saturn (duty, also career, structure) focused in the 7th house (relationships) possibly indicating a relationship with a foreigner involving her career strucuturing studies.

Since there are so MANY possibilities we can use with our energies, I find it difficult to sort out the "one" choice which makes us our "perfect career". Instead, I like to look at ALL the possibilities. And start with suggesting that your mother might like to do teaching. Also social restructuring might be an interesting possibility, for reasons already discussed. When I saw all the emphasis on social restrucutring (Aquarius (friends, also restructuring) modifying Ascendant (self), energy in the 11th house (friends, also restructuring), least aspected (strong energy) Uranus), I immediately tried to tie it into her career focus. I think her need to "restructure" may be as strong as her desire to structure!

Another thing to look at is, with North node (future goals) focused in the 3rd house (thinking, also writing), she might like to do some writing about her experiences, beliefs, social restructuring ideas.

Restructuring structure,

Tim

posted April 20, 2006 01:26 PM              

I hope my previous post did not come across as criticism of your astrological abilities in any way, since it certainly wasn't meant that way. (I'm saying this because your comment "Well, I tried!" sounds a tiny bit on the defensive side to me, though I could also be wrong, since it can be difficult to guess another person's intended meaning from the written word alone, especially if it is someone one does not know personally.) I was happy that you were willing to guess at all, since you might just as well have said that, since you like to view astrology primarily as a tool for self-development, it would not make any sense to you to spend time thinking about what someone may have done in the past.

When you mentioned in your post that my Mom's "need to restructure may be as strong as her desire to structure", I immediately thought of how, when on vacation, usually one of her favorite pastimes is looking for things to decorate the house with, such as pictures, vases, etc. She does like to exchange these things for new ones every now and then, which can be seen as one example of "restructuring", I guess? (Though perhaps it is not what you had in mind when writing that line.) And, Capricorn that she is, she is especially happy whenever she finds something she likes AND it has a "sale" sign attached to it!

posted April 20, 2006 02:55 PM            

Some musical men with strong Taurus/Capricorn combos are:

- Bono: Taurus Sun with Cap Ascendant

posted April 20, 2006 03:39 PM              

No worries! I also added a smiley to my last posting to make my meaning clearer! I have realized my limitations at helping people find the "right" career awhile ago, when I tried to match people up to their current career based on their chart. And, after many failures I finally asked myself, "Does everyone pick the career that is "perfect" for them? And, if not, how can I understand their "non-perfect" career based on their astrological chart?" That made a LOT of sense to me, so I changed my approach. I started approaching career questions not as what a person WILL do but instead more as what a person might LIKE to do.

Your example of "restructuring" makes sense to me. As I have mentioned before, it is VERY challenging to try to interpret the reading of someone else's chart. It is possible that your mom might find out more in my comments than you are able to...simply because your mom knows herself better than anybody else possibly could!

I am glad to hear you are keeping up on astrology. As I mentioned, your quest to test astrology reminds me of a similar effort I made in the beginning years of my astrological studies. One thing that helped me a LOT was in looking at the charts of VERY famous, well-known public figures. There are certain things about these people which stand out...and the chart will also show the same things in it! For instance, take a look at Marilyn Monroe's chart: http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/portraits/9DcXS553QeHR.htm

and see what you can find in it that matches up with the legend.

And you bring up an important point, one I have looked at many times (and still bring out to look over from time to time ): "Can't practically every chart be made to "fit" every person somehow?" Try it! Take a chart with may planets focused in the 7th house (relationships) and see if that person is selfish and self-centered. Take a chart with all the planets in the top right of the chart (Achievment - about doing things for others in the outer world) and see if that person is focused inwardly. And so on. Take any chart, find out what stands out in the chart astrologically...and then see if the person responds when you give the OPPOSITE interpretaion. Or, for fun you can do what I have done a few times by accident, change the date, time, location, etc. of a person's birth information, create the chart, and then interpret it to the person whose chart it is. And see if they relate to anything you have to say.

Testing and retesting astrology,

posted April 23, 2006 04:29 PM              

quote:

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Yeah, Taurus is the outright musically inclined earth sign, and Capricorns are supposed to be more into drawing and painting.

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That's funny, she does like to paint as a hobby and is pretty good at it - whereas, when I think of her singing...

posted April 23, 2006 04:54 PM              

Thanks for your response! I'm glad the defensiveness point seems to have been a misunderstanding.

You're right about Marilyn Monroe's chart, there do seem to be certain things that stand out. Now, I did not try to analyze it in detail before writing this, but some things that I noticed which seem to fit her very well are, for example, the strong Neptune (according to one of the tables on that site it's the strongest planet in her chart)focused in the 1st house, Moon-Jupiter in the 7th, as well as Venus conjunct the Midheaven.

The Neptune not too far from the Ascendant probably points to her ability of portraying herself as different personalities (perhaps her Gemini Sun also is of help in that regard), which being an actor is all about, after all. (I also once heard somewhere that even the people who knew her closely, or thought they did, tended to see her in very different ways from each other.)(...On the other hand, I have got a rather strong Neptune in my chart as well, but am sure that I'd make the worst actor the world has ever seen ...)
Marilyn's Venus conjunct the Midheaven also seems very fitting, her career having had to do with a form of art, and she having been widely admired for her beauty and charm. Having Moon-Jupiter in the 7th seems to go along well with her changing/numerous relationships. (Though I've got to admit I do not know that much about her relationships, only that she had several, and I think with men who were quite different from each other, which would also fit with having Jupiter in the house of relationships, I guess.)
In addition, her Sun-Mercury in/close to the 11th=appealing to groups, perhaps, and also being an adept talker? Moreover, most of her planets are in the Southwestern quadrant of her chart, which might also translate into her being a "public" figure. (Even though, generally speaking, I have still got some doubts about the issue of hemisphere emphasis, given that in my chart, nine out of ten planets are above the horizon, with eight of those being in the third quadrant. Still, I don't feel myself to be an outwardly focused person. Travel is the one big exception to this, but apart from that, there's no place I like better than my own room . And I also really enjoy spending time by myself. Wouldn't a truly outwardly focused person prefer to be around people more than be by themselves...?)

posted April 23, 2006 06:33 PM              

You said:

quote:

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One thought that has gone through my mind considering the charts of very famous people: Is there not a possibility that, often, when someone looks at a chart, knowing whose chart it is and what the person concerned is famous for, they'll automatically focus in on those aspects which seem to support their theories/knowledge about that person, while neglecting others that might possibly point in a different direction? Kind of like how, after some big event has happened in the world or to a celebrity, all the astrologers in the world seem to be able to find "definite" astrological evidence for that event - yet, before it happened, usually none of them noticed that anything out of the ordinary was going to happen at all...

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Great job on interpretation of Marilyn's chart! I think all the things you mentioned about Marilyn's chart were well thought out and made sense astrologically. The only thing I would add is that, since her planets are focused in the top right of the chart, she tended to do things in the outer world to help others. And, of course, remember that the chart is only a possibility, even if we have the energy in our chart to do certain things, if we choose NOT to use it, then our chart seems to not represent us at all! And, of course, remember only YOU know what your chart means. Maybe you are using your energies in a way that works for YOU, but is not apparent to others.

And, you also have a good point about famous charts. We DO look for certain things in a chart, which astrology tells us SHOULD be there. In Marilyn's chart we naturally look for indications of an expansiveness in relationships, in an unhappy home life, in getting opportunities through relationships, in having a changeableness in relationships, etc. The interesting thing is we ARE able to find all these things in Marilyn's chart. If we could NOT find them using astrological rules, that would tell us that astrology does NOT work. Since we CAN find them, this tells us there COULD be something to astrology. And, depending on our interest in astrology , we can follow up with other charts and see if what we know SHOULD be there shows up or does not show up in the charts.

Here is another person who had many relationships and was well-known for her beauty:
Elizabeth Taylor http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/carte.php?ID=50

Does she match what we "expect" to find in her chart? And, it may help for her chart to interpret planets CLOSE (within 5 degrees) of the edge of a house as being in BOTH houses.

You can explore many other famous charts besides by going here: http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/celestar/selection_star.php?provenance=annuaire

That is the problem with event prediction...it often seems to work best only AFTER the event has passed! That's another reason why I only look at the possibilities of the energies...and let the person figure out what to do with them.

Encouraging the pursuit of astrology,

posted April 30, 2006 04:16 PM              

Can you tell I have been "astrology lazy"...?
Thank you for the links, that's quite a lot of data they have collected there! I wonder where they got them from, though, especially the birth times. Do you think the possibility of astrologers' randomly choosing the times in accordance with what best seems to "fit" a certain person can be completely excluded? (I think there was another thread here somewhere, in which it was mentioned that different sources seem to give different rising signs for one and the same celebrity.)

The most obvious signs in Elizabeth Taylor's chart pointing to numerous relationships are probably her extremely close Venus-Uranus conjunction in Aries (tendency to fall in and out of love quickly, to want to "break free" from the relationship she is in at a given time, and, through Venus being in Aries, perhaps a tendency to conquer in her relationships) and Jupiter in Leo in the 8th house (numerous sexual relationships), trining her Venus-Uranus conjunction from there (probably even further expanding her relationship needs). Perhaps having the sign Gemini on the 7th house cusp could also be added here. (Interestingly, she has the exact same house cusps as I do, even including the interceptions. Can't attest to the Gemini-7th house issue from personal experience, though - but then again, the situation of Venus in my chart is a different one entirely...)Liz Taylor's Moon in the 11th might point to changing friendships, though I am not sure in how far this would have any bearing on her relationship issues.

The conjunction of Sun-Mercury-Mars in the 3rd house (since Mars is close to the 3rd-house cusp) would probably make her a very active, perhaps even aggressive, communicator, though these planets being in Pisces may soften this tendency somewhat. Since she has several personal planets in that sign, as well as Neptune opposing this Pisces stellium and squaring her Ascendant, the planet Neptune also seems to play an important role in her chart/life (which might point to her problems with alcohol and drugs). Interesting that both she and Marilyn Monroe have their Mars in Pisces.

I'm sure there are more things that could be added, but, given that the spell of laziness I have been under in relation to astrology hasn't completely lifted yet, I am going to leave my findings at that. (I have also gotten so used to the Astrodienst charts and the aspect grids that come along with them, that it takes me a bit to actually get used to this different kind of chart display.)

posted April 30, 2006 06:29 PM              

You asked:

quote:

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Do you think the possibility of astrologers' randomly choosing the times in accordance with what best seems to "fit" a certain person can be completely excluded?... that the spell of laziness I have been under in relation to astrology...If someone has a conjunction of Venus and Jupiter in Cancer in their chart, would this tend to intensify the Cancerian traits in their personality/way of relating, or would it come closer in expression to the energy of a Sagittarian Venus? In other words, what is it that Jupiter would most likely "expand" here, the need to relate (Venus), the caring nature (Cancer), or both, so that, perhaps, the person might enjoy relating to many people, but tends to relate to them in a very Cancerian way? Would they tend to dispose of more Cancer-type energy than if the two planets were not connected by aspect?

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I think astrologers FIRST try to find an accurate birth time and THEN try to interpret the chart. In fact, there is an entire birth dating reliability system, created by Lois Rodden (more at http://www.astrodatabank.com )

It doesn't seem to me you've been that lazy! All your comments about Liz seem to me to be spot on and accurate, as usual! As to your question about Cancer modifying Jupiter conjunct (energy is combined with) Venus in a person's chart...the first thing to think about is that Cancer modifying Jupiter is Jupiter in the sign of its exaltation (very easy energy), so think of this as being a strong JUPITER. Since Jupiter has to do with expansion, immediately we think of the possibility of OVER-expansion. Add in Venus (relationships) and we think about overexpansion in relationships. Now we add in Cancer (home, also emotions) and we get an EMOTIONAL over-expansion in relationships.

Now what if Jupiter and Venus were NOT conjunct? Then we simply have an over-expansive, emotional Jupiter, and we would look to the house Jupiter is in and aspects Jupiter makes to other planets to understand more about it. In this situation, also the emotional Venus energy is NOT over-expansive by itself. To understand the Venus energy we look at the house it is in and the aspects it makes to the other planets.

To put all this in words similar to the ones you used: Jupiter expands Venus, and both Jupiter and Venus are "modified" by Cancer energies so that both Jupiter and Venus are "Cancer-like" in the way they express their energies. At this point, I believe the interpretation has gone as far as it can go...we have to talk to the other person and ask them HOW they use their energies if we REALLY want to know. But if we go TOO far down that road we risk becoming voyeurs instead of astrologeurs!

Expansively relating...with feeling,

posted May 01, 2006 03:16 PM              

Thanks for your response!...And thanks for adding in the "s" in your sign-off line!