posted June 10, 2006 01:47 PM              

We've got four elements, and each represents a different character attribute. As I have been taught, it goes like this:
Earth - practical
Air - intellectual
Water - emotional
Fire - "fiery and passionate" "initiative" ...WTF?

It appears to me that the attributes ascribed to the Fire element are just a re-hashing, or narrowing down, of the Water element! "Fieriness" and "passion" are things we FEEL, *emotions*, which puts it under the dominion of Water. Is it maybe just the words people use to describe fire signs? Are there better words, ones that bring across a meaning I haven't yet been able to discern?

And look at the way Air and Earth are perfect complementary opposites. Earth is concerned with the physical, Air with the non-physical. But Water and Fire don't have any such opposition, as they're currently explained. Gah!

Then there are the three Qualities. Again, as I've been taught, they mean:
Cardinal: initiates the action, but may not stick with it
Fixed: continues the action, "sticks with it"
Mutable: "communicator" ...Jesus! What is it with this stuff?

Again, "one of these things is not like the other / one of these things just doesn't belong...". *Sigh*

Also, has anyone else noticed a similarity between "Cardinal" and "Fire", and between "Fixed" and "Earth"? What would be the rest of the correspondences between Element and Quality, if there's really something to this?

I really hope someone has got this figured out, because it drives me insane...

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Can you imagine a world in which each person understood that his only responsibility was to give and receive love?

posted June 10, 2006 03:31 PM              

As for a tag word for mutables: modifiers/adapters - think of it this way.

The cardinals come along and say "hey! We have to build a road all the way to Rome.

The fixed signs come along and say " Ok, I will see to it that this is completed. I will not waver until it's done"

The mutables come along and say "Oh, this is all wrong. It has to cut to the north to get around that river, and furthermore, the stones should be smoother. Perhaps we should grind up the stones and mix them with water, and POUR the surface of the road.

So, Cardinal starts the project, fixed maintains the status quo once started, and mutable comes along and questions/modifies the way everything is being done. The cardinals go, yeah good point - ok, from now on we're doing this - the fixed folks grumble and don't appreciate it, but then they maintain the NEW status quo, once they're on board. Until the next modification comes along.

So, all these energies play a part in achieving progress - each with it's own strength, but none more essential than the other.

posted June 10, 2006 03:40 PM            

And paras, how about the old Angular/Succedent/Cadent thing while we're at it??

quote:

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The following is for historical interest, really, as modern astrologers do not consider that one house is less influential than another.

Planets in angular houses have 100% of their power. In succedent houses, only 50%. In cadent houses only 25%. Traditionally, the strength of the houses is in this order: 1, 10, 7, 4, 11, 5, 9, 3, 2, 8, 6, 12, with the last three being less fortunate.

---

posted June 10, 2006 05:12 PM              

I agree that the astrological way we refer to these things is confusing. I like the simple words Stephen Arroyo uses to describe these things:

Fire = Idenity
Earth = Material
Air = Social
Water = Emotional

Cardinal (Angular) = Action
Fixed (Succedent) = Security
Mutable (Cadent) = Learning

To me, this is MUCH easier to understand. And, if we use this system to describe the signs we get:
Aries = Identity + Action
Taurus = Material + Security
Gemini = Social + Learning
Cancer = Emotional + Action
Leo = Identity + Security
Virgo = Material + Learning
Libra = Social + Action
Scorpio = Emotional + Security
Sagittarius = Identity + Learning
Capricorn = Material + Action
Aquarius = Social + Security
Pisces = Emotional + Learning

Using these simpler words makes it easy to understand the core energy of the signs. More about this in Step 4 of the link below.

Materially Learning,

Tim

posted June 10, 2006 05:13 PM              

We are referring to the energies which the signs are made out of. Take a look at my post for more of an explanation.

Repeating,

Tim

posted June 10, 2006 08:20 PM              

quote:

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And look at the way Air and Earth are perfect complementary opposites. Earth is concerned with the physical, Air with the non-physical. But Water and Fire don't have any such opposition

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I think the Air/Earth interaction and the Water/Fire interaction is quite similar. I think if anything Fire/Water do have a pretty big opposition. When you hear fire/water, it’s almost like hearing black and white. Earth and Air are both meant to be cool emotionally and focused like you said on the practical (earth) and the intellectual (air). Water and Fire are both meant to be warm emotionally and unable to detach. But in the same way you see earth as a “physical” form of being cool.. and air as a non-physical form of being cool.. you could see fire as a physical form of being warm/emotional and water as a non-physical form of that.

Basically I think Fire/Water are two facets of emotion. Air/Earth are two facets of thought. Earth practicality and Air intellectuality are quite similar in scope. The same way Watery sensitivity and feeling and Fiery passion, emotion, inspiration.. are also similar in scope.

posted June 11, 2006 02:55 AM              

The opposites are Air-Water and Earth-Fire. These elements are drawn to each other cos each lacks what the other needs; the differences are so dramatic that the magnetic pull exists.

quote:

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Then there are the three Qualities. Again, as I've been taught, they mean:
Cardinal: initiates the action, but may not stick with it
Fixed: continues the action, "sticks with it"
Mutable: "communicator" ...Jesus! What is it with this stuff?

---

Cardinal initiates and finds it quite difficult to stick with it and carry through. "Many irons in the fire." Problems starting and not finishing. The Enterpreneur.

Fixed does not initiate as much as Cardinal. Aligned with seeing something through to the end and making sure everything is in its place. The details. Stubborn.

Mutable is the least associated with initiative. They "move though" the project and flit about seeing to whatever needs seeing to at the time. They come in to fill in a gap and leave to fill in another. No strong "opinion" on what needs to be done. Cardinal says "I want to start this, this is such a brilliant idea Ive thought up, and I have so many more things I want to do." Fixed says "It take so much to start something I do not want to waste my energy and I will devote all I have to this one goal and see it through to the end because thats how I am satisfied."

Therefore mutables tend to get on with most since they dont have the strong agendas. Agendas belong to cardinal fixed and theyre the ones who bump heads the most. 2nd in line would be fixed mutable cos fixed gets annoyed with mutable's flightiness; lack of understanding.

~ excuse typos ~

posted June 11, 2006 11:10 AM              

Lioneye, your situational analogy was just beautiful! It isn't exactly what I was looking for -- what I was after was short descriptors (what you referred to as a "tag") that put all four elements into the same frame of reference, and likewise for all three modes. Nevertheless, I like the way you explained it, and will probably always remember it now!

Wilsontc (what does the "TC" stand for anyway? your middle and last initials? Can I just call you "Wilson"?), that was immensely helpful. Much better tags for the el;ements/modes, especially considering the amazing accuracy of them when combined for each sign!

posted June 11, 2006 03:04 PM            

Where is that from Zala?

not always on this one because you have to take into consideration if a planet is strong and dignified in a suceedent or cadent house.

example: Venus or Moon in the 2nd house are both home and exalted here and basically make good choices whereas
For Venus or the Moon to be placed in an angular 1st or 10th house this would debilitate them.

I don't get the 100% and 50% thing.

Paras, "passion to inspire" is a better description for fire, otherwise yes it easy to confuse with waters "emotional passion"

posted June 11, 2006 04:32 PM            

Here, under "The Importance of the Houses"
http://www.trans4mind.com/personal_development/astrology/LearningAstrology/houses.htm

I thought the page was a pretty good read -- what do you think??

Pretty good reference chart too.....

posted June 12, 2006 02:07 AM              

TC are my initials. You can call me Tim.

Simply,

Tim