posted December 23, 2007 05:05 AM              

while i GET the necessity of warning against illusion, etc, i wonder WHY it is almost always assumed to be negative when closely aspecting (especially conjuncting) in synastry. is it because most people are not able to comprehend neptune's greater gifts and are thus more prone to the illusory aspects of neptune? that would make sense. but what about those of us who are very feeling or spiritual in nature and can learn a great deal and find comfort and meaning and spiritual fulfillment in such contacts?

my neptune falls on my guy's DC (2 degree orb) and i think it is just as likely to mean: attracted to someone very intuitive and spiritual as it is to mean that the relationship will present difficulties, confusions and illusions. OR even that the relationship itself will be full of spiritual and empathic overtones. why not? this type of open ended "flavouring" exists with every other synastric aspect, so why doesn't the same thing usually apply to neptune's aspects?

i'm just curious cuz it's always bugged me a bit when i read things like that. i feel neptune is highly evolved and no most people don't get it.. so i do understand the cautions. maybe that's all it is about. but i think we do ourselves a disservice if we give these aspects this cloudy, fearful flavour rather than help to CLARIFY the nature of projection and empathy and psychic ability instead of run away in fear.. cuz THAT is what ends up confusing us! fear OF neptune, not neptune itself..

anybody agree or disagree or have any thoughts?

posted December 23, 2007 05:41 AM            

My natal Neptune is conjunct Mars and DC, trine Venus, square my Sun, sextile Jupiter and sextile Pluto - plus I have Mercury/Jupiter and MC in Pisces. I've attracted my fair share of Neptunian friendships and loves. Neptune usually figures strongly in synastry/composite.. or the person has strong Pisces in their chart.

The majority of the time it's actually very positive and spiritual - like the good side of Neptune, and it's absolutely awesome when this happens because you feel a very deep bond with the person. I definitely have this with my best friend who is a Pisces and our Mercuries are conjunct in Pisces so we often read each other's minds.

That being said - when things go wrong they go horribly wrong.. and the sort of tangled mess that Neptunian squares and oppositions (not so much conjunctions) can cause, is not easily sorted out.. if ever.

posted December 23, 2007 10:24 AM              

i guess i just wanted to balance things out a bit.. in terms of realizing the positives of neptune in synastry. but maybe you're right that the squares and oppositions, and sometimes conjunctions, can probably magnify the darker, or more slippery aspects of neptune to the point that there is no clear way to HANDLE the energy to make it positive.. unless both people are 100% honest as you say. and determined to understand themselves that deeply. so it is maybe kind of a long shot!

posted December 23, 2007 04:11 PM              

his scorpio pluto trines sun and mercury, squares venus, opposes mars (to the degree). it's in the 4th house near the 5th house cusp. he had a lot of really messed up family and religious sh*t in his childhood though, as per the 4th house pluto thread.

posted December 23, 2007 04:25 PM            

lol I'm sure he had a fair few mental disorders though. I mean I did think it would be best for him to be committed..but that's mainly because of paranoia, inability to distinguish fact from fiction, irrational anger and complete delusion (making things up)

Are you sure yours wasn't pretending to be psychic because he thought it would make him look interesting.. and pretending to be possessed? and pretending to be mentally impaired? etc...
I wouldn't be surprised.

posted December 23, 2007 04:27 PM            

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but i wonder if maybe his psychic talent with me had to do with his sun on my SN? like if somehow it just kind of leaked to him?

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I didn't see this before. That could be true, because my ex had his Sun on my SN and we were pretty attuned to each other, in a good way.

posted December 23, 2007 04:29 PM              

this mental disorder was really scary. it had him talking about suicide at least once a week.. and attempting anywhere from 1-5 times a month. sometimes i do think it was for attention but the number of times he came close to succeeding show that at least half the time he meant it.

posted December 23, 2007 04:32 PM              

interesting to note that i felt completely responsible for his life (martyr complex, yup that's me!) and that is why i felt trapped in the relationship (though i did care for him a great deal). i think this might reflect the sun-SN in pisces dynamic. and adding to the karmic element.. we got together while pluto was wrapping up its 10 year promenade through my 12th house.. and we broke up as it crossed my ascendant! freedom! and this guy taught me that having a martyr complex is for the birds. so it was all very good, looking back!

edited to add (i feel like this is therapy ), my dad is a pisces with cancer moon and he is SUCH a sweet soul though he doesn't know it. he is so unbelievably hard on himself!! he has guilt that goes on forever. but then again he is a violent alcoholic! so he sort of epitomizes both the light and the dark sides. i don't know if he's psychic at all or not (we're not very close) but he is very compasssionate. when he's not raging or crying cuz he feels so guilty. ahh, life.

posted December 23, 2007 04:57 PM            

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he would brag that he could get anyone to do what he wanted by his will and charms alone.

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LOL, omg that's really hilarious.. because this is such a typical thing they say. I'll give you an example of their idea of "making people do anything they like".. Having a Pisces Mercury, I'm very amused.

Ok – Say, I broke out crying in front of my mum – so she would ask me what was wrong..
I would then turn to you and say "OMG did you see that? I got her to ASK me what was wrong? do you see how powerful I am?"

Here's another example.. Say we're in a bar, and I start telling a lesbian girl my life story, whilst crying and convincing her I'm in love with her and am suicidal and couldn't live another day without her.. until eventually she asks if I want to have a coffee tomorrow.
Then I turn to you and say "OMG did you see THAT? I got her to ask me out? OMG I'm so cool"

LOL It is honestly *that* stupid.

I mean of course you can get people to do usual things - that they usually do, in those situations - like if they see someone cry or if you do certain things that get a reaction. The thing is anyone at all - can do that (It's not a magical power)..
It's just that most people can't be stuffed, because they have better things to do with their lives.. then go around faking emotions and getting reactions from others.

But look, the belief that they can "get people to do what they like" and that this is an awesome skill that only they possess - gives them some self esteem and frankly they need it.. so I just went along with that one. I'm too Piscean myself - to burst that bubble. Btw that is a very common thing that Pisces male will say usually – just to scare you.. They can't actually do anything interesting.. but they like to pretend.

posted December 23, 2007 05:33 PM              

of course to admit that you are probably right would reveal intense gullibility on my part, but then again i already knew that.

yeah man. this guy is a total mystery to me. and i guess that is probably what he was going for! thinking back (i try to avoid this as much as possible!) i realize how much of it fits into the magical-thinking category..

thanks for posting so much! it is really helping me put that time more into perspective. i have a new framework to apply and if i find it fits, i think i will have resolved it a lot better than i had! i tend to default to rosiness as much as possible. i'm working on that one.

posted December 23, 2007 06:52 PM            

They believe no one would ever like or love them as they are, so they need to re-create themselves and cause strife - to hold on to the person.. because in their mind the girl is so much better than them and could have a guy who is again - so much better than them - that unless they play these games, unless they hurt her first or unless they leave first and act unavailable.. she will for certain leave them, grow to dislike them.. or worse.. feel nothing at all and forget them all together, which feels like sudden death to Pisces.

What lurks beneath the cover up of the meanie Piscean is a sad sight, so the fact that he attempted suicide so often does not surprise me.

Try asking a Pisces who behaves this way to say the sentence "I love myself" out loud.. They'll never be able to get it out.. Even though they are great actors they won't be able to lie about this - because they just dislike themselves *that* much.
At times, they will purposely behave in a-holey ways to prove to themselves and others just how despicable they are.. because they don't want people to have a good opinion of them and they don't want anyone to love them - they believe they don't deserve to be loved (so they'll push you away).. It's all very messed up. At other times they behave this way to put up a wall, so you can't get close and they don't have to feel anything for you - that way you can't harm them. But this ends up back firing, because what they need most (being a water sign) is for someone to get close so they can connect. It ends up making them feel very lonely.

posted December 23, 2007 09:38 PM              

and how you describe the self hatred, etc, that was all part of his mental illness. the thing with the illness he was diagnosed with was, they act SO normal (even when they don't feel it) so there is really nothing they can do. they can't hold them in the mental hospital cuz they act perfectly fine. when he was put in there at one point one of the nurses approached me cuz he walked away in a bad mood and said "you didn't break up with him did you?! don't break up with him!" it really sucked cuz i was basically his warden. i had to make sure he took his meds (so of course he learned how to hide the fact that he usually wasn't) and went to therapy with him (they strongly advised this as well), etc etc. and all the things he would say about himself basically echoed that. he wanted to get better and could be honest about the self hatred and manipulation, but then would go right ahead and throw it all away and treat me pretty badly and/or seem normal but be off.. but that is pretty interesting what you say about some of the "darker", paranoid pisceans. cuz that totally described him. and i think he did have good intentions most of the time, but the need to keep himself loved at all costs ended up causing him to behave in ways that brought on, eventually, what he feared! sorry for the run-on disjointed scentences.. i'm very distracted! hope it made sense..

posted December 25, 2007 04:31 AM              

Coral Frequency...Those were some very insightful posts!!

I've got a pisces moon, tightly square neptune ( among other aspects)...

Your description of the "Piscean magic" (i.e. I got so and so, to do this and that) fits me PERFECTLY!!!

There is a DEFINITE feeling of insecurity..

BUT.. ( again , in a seemingly most Piscean way) I sometimes wonder if getting people to "believe" isn't half the battle in the first place!!!

Where would we be without our dreams?

On a Christmas-y note, would there be any need for a "Jesus" to come along, if "might" always equaled "right"?

Perhaps there is more power in subtle manipulation (and/or martyrdom) than might first appear? ...

posted December 25, 2007 04:58 AM              

i REALLY feel my pisces SN *but* i also feel i am able to actively and intentionally un-pisces myself (which when you think of the entirely overwhelming nature of pisces is quite the feat!).

this guy had a pretty big god complex and HALF of the time it was along the lines of your last statement.. which kept me into him, believing in him.. cuz i GET that. the gnostic sort of perspective and i think it DOES have validity.. if used very wisely and *VERY* carefully. BUT pisceans are people too and insecure too! so the resorting to manipulation, etc, for love and attention just leads to HUGE problems.. especially when you want to be/claim to be highly spiritual, etc. there is a very STRONG paradox inherent in pisces, i find.

i think the MESSAGE is important but that trying to CLAIM the spirituality is the danger, if that makes any sense. it is a much larger energy that any of us, individually. BUT it is ALL of us, as ONE. manipulation, of course, is the antithesis to this knowing because manipulation comes from fear. martyrdom only shows people that they may disrespect you.. which does not help them.

however! i do believe that my love and sacrifice for him is in his heart and i hope he will remember it and remember that i DID love him. so in a way it is true. and in the way that everything happens for a reason (so is "good"). another piece of the paradox there!!

posted December 25, 2007 06:15 AM            

In any Neptunian relationship two people have to be every open and honest with each other. I like Neptunes effects but there are also times when miscommunication can happen.

Bear and I experienced something along those lines just yesterday. I had posted in Astral Realms about a dream I had and even bumped an old thread that featured my dream guides. It was from 2002. He read a post that I had written on 12/11/02 where I was talking about an ex of mine that I felt was like an anchor dragging me down. He only saw the initial "December 11" date and not the year.

For hours he was quiet and started asking me a few questions, like if I really felt that I helped him all the time and he gave nothing to the relationship.

Finally I asked him "Why are you asking me those questions". He said he read a post of mine from a few weeks ago and was sad that I felt that way. I was like "Ummm.. what do you mean? Where was it posted". I had no idea he read the old post and thought it was about him.

We figured it out and I said "Honey.. that post was years old. I bumped it up because it talked about the Horse and the Jaguar. The guy I was talking about was a Leo from years ago that was a taker not a giver".

We came back into the living room and I pulled up the post. I pointed out all the differences- namely that I had worked with the guy, I was tired of his series of crises that occured all the time and that with Saturn (Gemini) opposing my Sun / Venus (Sag) I had gone through lots of lessons.

LOL.. he cracked up and said "I thought it looked funny and didn't apply to us but I was confused".

That is how Neptune can play in a relationship. My Neptune squares his Sun and his Neptune squares my Mars.

It is fortunate that we are able to talk things out rather than allow things to fester.

I've also been in terrible Neptunian relationships and like another poster, I was with a man that thrived on manipulations and lies. I couldn't believe a darn thing out of his mouth (he also had a mental disorder).

The best thing to do is to be aware of Neptune's position in the natal and synastry charts. Also, if you can find someone that understands astrology or is willing to learn about some of the heavier aspects that play in synastry, then things can be talked over.

posted December 25, 2007 06:21 AM              

yes i am very fortunate that this guy i'm "with" now is very interested and attentive when i explain things astrologically. i am quite sure he would understand if i explained it to him.

posted December 25, 2007 12:15 PM            

BTW...Can I check out his birthdata?

posted December 26, 2007 07:00 AM              

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So people admit that all / most Neptune aspects seem to be debilitating, and yet argue against the notion that all Pisceans are useless at everything.
Double-standards i say.

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Calling all neptune aspects "debilitating" is about as useful astrologically as Belgz's assertion that all 8th house men have big c*cks