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Author Topic:   The Future Of Astrology by Steven Forrest
Glaucus
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Posts: 5228
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted February 08, 2008 07:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Astrologer Steven Forrest discusses the future of his profession at the NORWAC conference in May 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWN8kk1uVhM


I really liked it. I also felt that he made good points about astrologers are using different languages as in using different systems...how there is so much diversity,but there is considerable discord among astrologers, how we disagree a lot with each other. He calls that we work together and support on another and not work against each other.

He compared how Astrological world fragmented and turned into many languages that there is chaos and confusion like the tower of Babel in the Bible.

He says that that the idea of "There is One true Astrology" is completely crazy and destructive idea and can be blown out of the water.

I agree 100 percent of what he said.

I have some of his books,

THE INNER SKY
THE CHANGING SKY
PLUTO
SKYMATES

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Geocosmic Valentine
Newflake

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From: New York, NY
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posted February 09, 2008 12:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Geocosmic Valentine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Glaucus,

That video is awesome!! I love Steven Forrest even more now. Thank you so much for alerting us to it. Everyone here should be watching this video with their eyes glued to the screen and their ears glued to their speakers or earphones.

Thanks again,

Geocosmic Valentine

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tragedy
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posted February 09, 2008 03:14 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I watched the first 8 minutes or so,and, concluded that "if" the reality of "one true astrology" can be debunked so easily ( as per the above comment) then WHY even consider astrology as a source of ANYTHING in life?

His questions concerning how to make astrology more "relatable" to the client, gives away a certain sense of "not knowing" (i.e. Hey, I can't prove anything I'm saying to you, BUT, will you please still pay $100 an hour to tell you what I "think"!!! ..if only we ALL could be so "special" as to ask for that privilege in life!!!

I guess I could go on here, but I think I've somewhat made my point!!!

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Glaucus
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From: Sacramento,California
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posted February 09, 2008 05:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't agree.

I think that he was advocating tolerance,acceptance of astrological diversity.

just like some people advocate for tolerance of racial,ethnic diversity.

some people advocate tolerance of religious,spiritual diversity.

some people advocate tolerance,acceptance of neurological diversity


Intolerance of diversity is the greatest problem on our planet. A lot of people think that they are superior and others are inferior when it comes to things like race,ethnicity,religion,intelligence,looks,etc. Many people on our planet think that they are right and others are wrong.

That's why we have so many wars in the first place.

Astronomers argue among themselves,but so do astrologers.

I feel that Steven Forrest was trying to promote equality among astrologers.

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yourfriendinspirit
unregistered
posted February 09, 2008 06:48 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
K, you guys will be impressed to know that Steve really is genuine. He has may interests outside of astrology as well

He actually plays guitar in a ROCK band called Dragonship. [They sound similar to Fleetwood Mac.]
Acoustic God and he, have many similarities actually now that I think about it, LOL!

Anyways they (mostly he) writes all their own music as well. His wife (Jodi) does the bands vocals and keyboard. This guy is multi-talented to the point of blowin' your mind but his Cappy sun keeps him in check at all times in the EGO department

I haven't yet watched the video posted above as I've just peeked my head into the post recognizing the name... I likely won't take the time to click the link at all -sorry. But if any of you have further questions about something in it I'll be more than than happy to ask him personally...

Anyways, Glaucus you are correct with your views on this guys aim...

Um here Geo you will most appreciate this:

Knock yourself out, LOL!

------------------
Sendin' love your way,
"your friend in spirit"

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Azalaksh
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From: New Brighton, MN, USA
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posted February 09, 2008 09:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Azalaksh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey thanks for the chart, YFIS -- I definitely want to have a look at it

Steven and Jodi also dabble in Celtic culture (Jodi's books) and have a page on the Nordic Runes - the Elder Futhark:
http://www.stevenforrest.com/runes.html

I love his insights and will continue to put his very relevant quotes up here. I don’t think there CAN be “One True Astrology”..... Astrology is an Art, not an exact science where combining variables can produce only ONE TRUE, CORRECT answer..... Methinks human beings are too complex for that kind of pigeonholing :-D

Tragedy, yes you made your point
I would think ANY professional astrologer can only tell you what they THINK about the potentials in your chart. Do you expect a professional astrologer to be an Oracle who will tell you: you will get married on June 3, 2010, have a girl in 2011 and a boy in 2013, and your husband will be a CPA in the GAO?? A serial killer or a priest could have the exact same chart placements/birthdate, but due to many other factors (environment, upbringing and karma to name just three) they went in opposite directions with the same chart and same transits/secondary progressions.

Perhaps you would like to read the excerpts from Steven Forrest in this thread:
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/012497.html

quote:
Astrology cannot predict that you’re going to wreck your car. It cannot point out in advance the date of your marriage, your death, or the arrival of your new TV set. That kind of astrological prophecy is bogus and unreliable and we will not be concerned with in in “The Changing Sky.” What modern predictive astrology can do is inform you in advance of the natural rhythms of your life – and moods – thereby helping you arrange your outward experiences in the happiest, most harmonious and efficient manner. If it saves you some repair bills and bandaids as well, then so much the better.

. . . we reject the notion that these minute-by-minute astrological forces make your decisions for you. They might affect your moods. They might help define the developmental challenges you are facing. But they don’t create events. That’s your department.

Although fatalism is admittedly part of astrology’s history, it bears the same relationship to modern astrology that using leeches to draw out “bad blood” bears to contemporary medicine. Modern astrologers predict questions, not answers. The old practice of “fortune-telling” is nothing but a skeletin in astrology’s closet, a mistake made long ago, now grown musty with cobwebs, but still capable of haunting us.

“Astrology is humanity’s oldest and most precise mind-map. It cannot, however, accurately predict events. The planets hold half the cards, you hold the rest. Choices you make within the astrological environment determine what actually happens to you.”

We are free. No rigid, fatalistic prediction can bind us. There is no astrological event so baleful that creativity, intelligence and honest self-appraisal cannot turn it to constructive uses – and there is no configuration so glorious that laziness cannot sour it.

The purpose of modern predictive astrology, long hidden behind ancient veils of superstition, is not to “forecast events.” It is to help people make better choices, to clarify the nature of the psychological terrain through which they are passing, and to serve as their ally in the endless, unpredictable task of creating the future.
Not fate, but freedom in the real world, a world of hard limits punctuated by the miraculous – that is modern predictive astrology.

Right or wrong, anyone who looks into your birthchart and tells you your marriage will break up is abusing astrology, and abusing you too, for that matter. That is not what the symbols are intended to do, nor is it what they do best. You are not a marionette. The planets that move through your chart year by year are not pulling your strings. That’s the old picture, and it has led to deep misunderstandings as well as needless worry and fear. The astrological forces are questions, not answers. They pose riddles, and each riddle has many solutions. Some of those solutions help us lead happier, more engaging lives. Others might only mire us more deeply in self-defeating existential sinkholes. The worst of them might see us pointing loaded shotguns at ourselves, literally or figuratively. Which solution will we choose? The choice is left up to our own ingenuity, determination, and nerve. We are, in other words, free.


I think perhaps this site Lindaland serves a huge purpose – for debunking the fantasy that many astro-neophytes have – that once an astrologer looks at your chart, they will know everything about you, know exactly what will happen to you for the rest of your life, and tell you what to do and what not to do.

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Geocosmic Valentine
Newflake

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posted February 09, 2008 11:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Geocosmic Valentine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Azalaksh,

When Steve talks about making astrology relatable to the client I think he's making a statement about jargon and how much astrology a client is required to know about astrology which is NOTHING AT ALL.

I've had to tell almost every other client that I don't require them to know the names of planets or points or what the chart even looks like. I make it a point to tell each client that I will not be using any astrological jargon during the consultation, just like I wouldn't expect my medical doctor to explain everything about my medical condition with exact medical terminology because I didn't go to Med school and I wouldn't know what the heck he or she was talking about.

I recently had a request from a potential client who refused to have a consultation with me because she WANTED me to use astrological jargon. I don't know what that was all about, I think she wanted to learn from me which is a completely different service. I understand that some people like to hear the names of the planets and the gods as they are getting their consultation. It gives them a sense of poetry or just the feeling that they are connected to the planets, but then I feel that is a more entertaining form of getting an astrological "reading" and that's fine if you want that, but it's not the service I provide.

For "Tragedy":

I hope you gave his video a longer view than just 8 minutes out of the 57 minutes of his full lecture. It seems very unfair to make those judgements by only view 10 percent of a lecture that was very much a synthesis of information from one of the most knowledgeable and skilled Western Astrologers in the world today. It's not his "specialness" that makes people pay him $275 for a 2 hour consultation, it's his 30 plus years of skill, insight, accuracy and ability to relate that without having to fill time using words like "aspect, Vertex, Tertiary Progressions, laws of subsumption, Solar Arcs, etc." when the client is not an astrologer and won't understand. That just wastes the client's time and money when they just want to know if their chart suggests that this is a time a good time to schedule surgery with the least amount of blood loss, etc.

There are a lot of people out there who have no clue of what astrology can really do and then there are also many who DO KNOW what it can do and it scares the hell out of them because it can be just as clear and accurate as a great psychic reading. He wants people to know what astrology can really do. When he mentioned some of his celebrity clients, I was impressed that those particular celebrities really knew what astrology could do. I agree and wish that more people in my area understood how powerful it can be.

Geocosmic Valentine
Professional Astrologer
geocosmicvalentine@yahoo.com
. www.myspace.com/geocosmicvalentine

------------------
"Everybody is a star!"
Sly & The Family Stone

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Azalaksh
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From: New Brighton, MN, USA
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posted February 09, 2008 11:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Azalaksh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Geo

Here's a quote from long-about Minute 40:

"If only they (his famous clients) felt safe enough to say 'I consult an astrologer . . . just like I consult a weather forecaster' -- what a snowball would start to roll in terms of public acceptance. I'm talking about how to jumpstart a reaction in the public mind -- one that makes it safe for not only famous people, but smart middle of the road people to talk about astrology."

Here's a link to the Moses Siregar interview that Steven Forrest talks about in this lecture:
http://www.astrologyforthesoul.com/success/

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted February 09, 2008 11:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
'Zala,

quote:
A serial killer or a priest could have the exact same chart placements/birthdate, but due to many other factors (environment, upbringing and karma to name just three) they went in opposite directions with the same chart and same transits/secondary progressions.

False.
No two bodies can occupy the same space and time.
No two people have the exact same birth chart.

The greater the skill of the astrologer,
the more sensitive he/she will be to the details,
which, in cases where charts are so nearly identical,
can signify the most profound influences and differences.

Environment and upbringing are shown by the fourth house,
but you will have to look closely.
Its rare to find an astrologer capable of perceiving the minutia,
which is why, in addition to chart reading,
intuitive ability and dialoguing
are parts of the astrologer's toolbox.
The chart could tell us everything, though,
if only we could read it as God can.
The same may perhaps be said of every grain of sand.

Also, it does not follow that, because Astrologers have learned that they are not in a position to predict events with certainty, events are therefor not predetermined. Forrest is confusing two distinct issues here. "Fatalism", from a metaphysical point of view, is essentially no different from determinism, but, "fatalism", as Forrest employs the term, suggests a philosophy whereby the Astrologer has insight into these "fatalities", and, if no such insight exists, then, none is possible, and (this is a leap and a half!) fate itself does not exist. This is a common error in logic (especially, I would think, for people with strong Aries placements).

"Thus runs the speech of all fish;
What they do not fathom is unfathomable."
~ Nietzsche

And, in this case, Forrest believes that, not only is fate unfathomable, but, if it cannot be fathomed, it does not even exist (despite all the evidence of logic). He does nothing in the quotes you posted to explain how free will could be possible, but is satisfied to repeat the empty, though popular, premise, and, apparently, you are satisfied to post this as some sort of confirmation from on high?

But Forrest's arguments amount to nothing but this: "[Because I cannot foresee the answer, there is no answer. Because I can see many possibilities, and am unable to narrow them down to find the reality of the situation, there is no reality. Because I see many possible answers, and am unable to deduce the correct one, then, there is no correct answer! Many things could happen, even though only one thing can actually happen. Also, because fear and worry have resulted from the arrogance of astrologers who thought they could predict destiny, I conclude, not that this arrogance is in error, but, that destiny itself does not exist.]" All of this is philosophical rubbish from a mind suited to other, non-philosophical, matters.

He says, "The choice is left up to our own ingenuity, determination, and nerve. We are, in other words, free." But the second sentence here does not follow from the first. Not by a long shot, let alone "in other words". These internal factors (ingenuity, determination, nerve) are not identical in all people, or even in any two people. We each have a unique distribution of gifts like these, so, how can you call it free, when the very things which determine choice, are different for every one of us? Not only is the playing field far from level, but, in this context, the player is the field. If Forrest wasnt at least somewhat hip to this fact, he would have just said, "the choice is left up to you", and would have delved no further. Instead, he goes far enough to identify a few of the internal factors as efficient causes. But he does not go far enough. He quickly resurfaces and, rather than delviing deeper into these internal factors (i.e. if internal factors determine choice, as he says, then, what are the determining internal factors of the internal factors?!), he imagines them at the disposal of the very creature whom they compose! This is the solipsism which philosophical and psychological superficiality, and a rigid adherence to the dogma of "free will", have made inevitable and, in some respect, indispensible, in our day and age.

"No man is free who is not master of himself."
~ Epictetus
(Stoic philosopher, determinist)

Only a buddha is master of himself.

Only a buddah is free.

"All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else."
~ Gotama Buddha
(Mystic, Determinist)


On the original topic:

Astrology is an art because it is not yet a science.
There is only one correct astrology,
though, as far as I know,
it has yet to be discovered and proven,
as consistently more accurate and effective than other systems.
In the meantime, there are interpretations.
And Forrest is right that there is little to be gained
from arguing amongst ourselves and our interpretations.
We should be looking for the commonalities,
if we wish to discover the absolutes.
And, in the meantime, celebrate the differences,
as possible avenues for investigation.


hsc

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Azalaksh
Knowflake

Posts: 982
From: New Brighton, MN, USA
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posted February 09, 2008 12:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Azalaksh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
'
quote:
False.
No two bodies can occupy the same space and time.
No two people have the exact same birth chart.
C'mon Stephen gimme a break!! My brother and one of his best friends were born the same day within 5 minutes of each other in the same hospital!! Who's talking about two bodies occupying the same space?? I'm saying there were probably a couple more kids born in that maternity ward at that large metropolitan hospital exactly the same time as my brother and his buddy WHO WILL ALSO HAVE THE SAME CHART, except possibly for the exact minutes of the Moon and Asc and maybe Mercury.

However, my bro and his buddy turned out very differently. His buddy owns his own business and is married with a child, and my brother is an alcoholic and drug addict, homeless except for camping with his alcoholic/drug addict girlfriend.....

Same houses, Same Gemini Sun, same Virgo rising, same Libra Moon.

As for the rest, you and I have been around that mulberry bush before

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted February 09, 2008 12:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
'Zala,


quote:
C'mon Stephen gimme a break!! My brother and one of his best friends were born the same day within 5 minutes of each other in the same hospital!! Who's talking about two bodies occupying the same space??

You said "exact same", implying "same time and place". You now admit that this was in error. I corrected it, because, although it may seem like a minor matter, it is this detail which you appear to take as the lynch-pin of your further conclusions.

quote:
I'm saying there were probably a couple more kids born in that maternity ward at that large metropolitan hospital exactly the same time as my brother and his buddy WHO WILL ALSO HAVE THE SAME CHART, except possibly for the exact minutes of the Moon and Asc and maybe Mercury.

And those minutes can have far-reaching consequences.

Also, there are myriad "lesser" influences,
which, although astrological in nature,
are too minute to appear in the birthchart.
And I honestly believe that,
when charts are so similar,
these lesser influences hold sway.
Kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back,
or the big nose that crosses the finish line a split-second earlier.

But you make good points.
I just think the good points you make
are about our inability to read the chart,
and not about the chart's "inability to be read".

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Newflake

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posted February 09, 2008 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
As for the rest, you and I have been around that mulberry bush before.

I've definitely circumferenced that bush myself.

I think you only ever followed me half-way around, though,
before turning back in indignation.

But suit yourself.

I'll go on speaking truth to falsehood,
even if it means repeating myself.


love to you,
s

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Geocosmic Valentine
Newflake

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From: New York, NY
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posted February 09, 2008 12:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Geocosmic Valentine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Heart Shaped Cross,

You debate "Divine Ambiguity" well, taking the role of the devil's advocate when you choose. I can't say that I can argue philosophy well at all, but I can tell when someone uses it to abuse others while tooting their own intellectual horn. No doubt you're very young and obviously smart as a whip, but you leave no room for idealism, compassion, even the spiritual exaltation of confusion (Neptune, stop channeling through me!)and the right to be imperfect, as Stephen Forrest no doubt is.

It's obvious no one has found the perfect connections to piece together the "One True Astrology" so give Stephen and Humanity, for that matter, a break.

Thanks. I'm now prepared for you to jump all over me as I'm sure you're dying to do. I only ask that you be a little gentle as you tear me apart.

Geocosmic Valentine

------------------
"Everybody is a star!"
Sly & The Family Stone

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Azalaksh
Knowflake

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From: New Brighton, MN, USA
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posted February 09, 2008 12:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Azalaksh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A few other quotes from the lecture:

“One of our mistakes was fragmenting so much that we wound up at war with each other rather than reaching out to the world, and I think we have completely dropped the ball at supporting astrology as a practical trade, as a profession, as something we can do in this world to help people . . .

What can reunite the astrological community without sacrificing our diversity of voices? Because that diversity is not going to go away . . .

In the heart of every astrologer with whom I would enjoy sitting down and having dinner, is the feeling of wonder and gratitude that the heavens say something about the human soul – if we don’t have that in common, we’re not astrologers . . . and we have a compelling desire to share that squealing, healing feeling with as many people as are willing to listen to it. We’re excited about it, because we know what it’s done for us, and we want to reach out and touch some other people with it, in whatever astrological language we may be using to accomplish that end.

How many of you here tonite make all or a significant part of your living from astrology? I just want to say thank you for all of the victories that you’ve had that nobody will ever know about [due to client confidentiality], all of the differences you’ve made, all of the souls you’ve touched, thank you so much for dedicating your life to this scary and wonderful path that we call astrology. I hope that by the time I’m really old, there’s ten of you for every one of you that I saw tonite.”

One of Forrest’s favorite curses:
“May you have a job that pays you only money.”

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Azalaksh
Knowflake

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From: New Brighton, MN, USA
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posted February 09, 2008 12:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Azalaksh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
I think you only ever followed me half-way around, though,
before turning back in indignation.
But suit yourself.
I'll go on speaking truth to falsehood,
even if it means repeating myself.
Stephen, we've done this "Truth" one before too And we've also done the assumptions-about-another's-path one ("I think you only ever followed me half-way around")
The Moon is just about to conjunct my natal Moon and I'm more partial to swimming in Neptune's ocean than debating with thee.....

Perhaps when I've said, "can we please just agree to disagree," you could finally accept that and Let It Be??

Z

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Newflake

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posted February 09, 2008 01:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Geocosmic Valentine,

quote:
Heart Shaped Cross,

You debate "Divine Ambiguity" well, taking the role of the devil's advocate when you choose.


That's a serious accusation.
Does it come with evidence?
I think everything I've said here is consistent.

quote:
I can't say that I can argue philosophy well at all, but I can tell when someone uses it to abuse others while tooting their own intellectual horn. No doubt you're very young and obviously smart as a whip, but you leave no room for idealism, compassion, even the spiritual exaltation of confusion (Neptune, stop channeling through me!)and the right to be imperfect, as Stephen Forrest no doubt is.

I think you misunderstood me. I did point out Forrest's errors (as you seem to agree), and substitute my own superior understanding, in this one small area of my expertise. Does that mean that I believe I am his intellectual superior in all respects, or his superior in other matters as well, just because I admit to seeing one thing more clearly? Does it mean that I am intolerant and unloving, because I point out and seek to remedy the imperfections of others, as well as my own? When you conclude, in no time at all, that I leave no room for compassion, idealism, etc., I think you are projecting. Although I have not said everything (thats a lot to ask of me, dont you think?), I have spoken one side of this story clearly, and, to my way of thinking, I have still left room for the other side. The question is, have you? And my understanding of Neptune, in its proper function, is this: It does not deny Saturnian truths, but, rather, places them in a larger context, so that they continue to make sense, although the conclusions we draw from them change.

quote:
It's obvious no one has found the perfect connections to piece together the "One True Astrology" so give Stephen and Humanity, for that matter, a break.

I do give him a break. I love and practice astrology, despite its limitations, or, rather, despite my own limitations in understanding it. However, from what I see on this thread, Forrest's position is not that the One True Astrology has yet to be perfected, but, that it is not to be attempted. That we are to celebrate the inconsistencies, and not just the differences, between systems. If he was merely saying what you just said, I would not have disagreed with this at all. Perhaps I misunderstood that part.

quote:
Thanks. I'm now prepared for you to jump all over me as I'm sure you're dying to do. I only ask that you be a little gentle as you tear me apart.


These words, and your ugly appraisal of me,
are less gentle than anything I have said in this thread.

-------------------------------------------------------

'Zala,

Fair enough.
I'm just telling you my point of view.
I know I word my perceptions strongly -
perhaps because they are strong perceptions, -
but I'm not trying to bully you or whatever.
You are, as always, welcome to disagree,
or to dismiss my contributions, as you see fit.
Please, do so,
and dont make me out to be the antagonist,
while passive-agressively participating in the debate,
and encouraging me to respond.
The thing is,
if you went around saying that white people are superior,
I would go around contradicting you -
and offering actual arguments to support my counter-claim.
You could object that the path of racial tolerance is not your own,
and we should just agree to disagree
(without ever actually getting down to it), etc.,
but I would still respond with the truth as I see it.
Even if that posed an inconvenience to you,
and to your intolerant agenda.
Its nothing personal, 'Zala,
and neither of us needs to bring it to that,
but when you support the dogma of "free will",
you unwittingly support a fascistic way of thinking,
and, for whatever reason, I feel compelled to refute it
whenever I see it raising its fascistic little head.
It's just something I feel very strongly about.
If you want to agree to disagree,
you can begin by accepting me for that.

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Geocosmic Valentine
Newflake

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From: New York, NY
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posted February 09, 2008 02:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Geocosmic Valentine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Heart Shaped Cross,

I should have added the same giggles here that I added to my private email to you to suggest that I was having a little fun in my rebuttle to you. So I'd like to apologize to you in front of everyone here because I did make some ugly accusations about you. For that I am sorry.

I also mentioned to you that (and I should say this for myself) the internet tends to bring out the debater (and a little bit of the freak) in people. Well, you saw it happen to me today.

As for everything else, I'll have to respond another time, I simply don't have the time or energy to comb through every point and answer every question. But at some point I will, but I wanted to get to the apology right away because I don't enjoy insulting people or hurting their feelings. Now it will be hard to convince you that it's not my style.

Anyhoo, until later when I re-read what you wrote, have a great afternoon and we'll speak again.

Geocosmic Valentine

------------------
"Everybody is a star!"
Sly & The Family Stone

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Newflake

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posted February 09, 2008 02:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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venusdeindia
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posted February 10, 2008 02:57 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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tragedy
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posted February 10, 2008 03:40 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Heart Shaped Cross..... U ROCK!!!!

I envy your patience, and persistence ( you must have some solid Saturn/mercury, and perhaps Pallas, contacts going on )

While, at this time, I choose not to debate anyone in this thread, I must offer my "vice presidency" (LOL.. sorry I've been watching CNN lately )... to Heart Shaped Cross.. .

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Newflake

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posted February 10, 2008 10:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Thanks!

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