posted April 16, 2008 02:01 AM         

i was seeing this guy about a month and a half ago. we've been friends (though more like aquaintances) for 3 years. he's virgo moon and rising (cancer sun). we were only seeing eachother a week and i broke it off cuz frankly he was super argumentative. everything was a debate and i always had to hear about how he was processing EVERY SINGLE DETAIL of life and it was exhausting (since he wanted me to participate in this constant analysis; on his terms and in his way). otherwise, though, he was a good guy and we stayed friends (though admittedly it's been weird since he thinks he's in love with me-- i don't think he is, but who am i to say what love is?).

well, when we were seeing eachother, he stayed with us for a few days. i fed him the entire time he was here. a few days before that, he got his gas turned off and i cabbed it over to his place with my toaster oven so he could cook (he still has it). another time he was worried about running out of food and i gave him a bit of money. not once did i ask for anything back or anything. i gave because he was in need.

well, a few days ago i ran out of food. completely. i'm a single mom to a 2 year old and we are on welfare. he is also on welfare but makes more than we do because he is on disability AND he brings in several hundred a month via his photography, on top of welfare. so i asked him if he could help us out. all i get in return is a back and forth DEBATE-style argument about how he does not OWE me anything (i never said he did, i only referred to my having helped him and hoped he would care enough to help us, considering our situation). and i would keep clarifying this, and over and over i have recieved responses about how i deserve help but he has to take care of himself and i deserve help but that he does not OWE me anything!!!

so it's like, on PRINCIPLE he's refusing to help me because in his MIND i should not need help if he thinks i am implying he owes me? or something?? this does not make any sense to me and i feel totally burned. to the point where i do not even consider this person a friend.

i just needed to vent and ask if i'm being totally unreasonable here. i happen to know that he JUST brought in several hundred dollars from a very big photo shoot he just did and that his fridge is always stocked with healthy food. am i crazy to be ****** ? and, is this a virgo thing??? i'm a natually forgiving, understanding person, but this just feels wrong to me.

posted April 16, 2008 02:10 AM         

What are your Mercury signs? How do they fit into the chart?

Maybe ask him straight out what he meant. If he's being unfair that gives you a chance to defend yourself, or it could be he is telling you something about yourself that you could think about and learn from, I don't know.

posted April 16, 2008 02:15 AM         

it's a bit complicated i guess since i DO feel angry that i did help him and he knows my budget and situation and he's better off than i and yet won't help me. so, i can see how he'd infer that. but it just makes me really sad.

my mercury is aquarius. his is cancer.

posted April 16, 2008 02:38 AM         

So you kept repeating that it was a request not a demand and he wasn't listening to what you were saying. Maybe he has some issue about owing people things based on past experiences.

With Mercury in Aquarius you are much more capable of being objective.

posted April 16, 2008 02:45 AM         

it is complex though since i wouldn't feel burned if i hadn't helped him, so i suppose in some way the implication is somewhat present and it could be argued that in some way i do feel he "owes" me.

but from my perspective i just feel kinda stunned that he would refuse given that i'm 100% out of cash, food, diapers, etc and he's doing well. i'm considering getting my oven back tomorrow, but that might be too mean. i dunno.

posted April 16, 2008 04:23 AM         

Or maybe he is too mean ~ if he is inclined to sit around sipping beer whilst you struggle to feed and clothe your child it's best to find out as soon as possible.

posted April 16, 2008 04:39 AM         

i am just weirded out that he is so adamant about not helping considering the situations; both the ones we're in financially right now and that i DID help him. and he knows that i have nothing and that i have trouble asking for help and don't unless i'm VERY desperate. to me it seems a really sucky thing to do! it's odd cuz i do want to stay friends with him, but yet i feel almost taken for granted. i fed him at least 9 meals and gave him money, and he can't help me when i have literally nothing? it confounds me!

posted April 16, 2008 05:05 AM         

his whole POINT seems to be that he does not OWE me anything and that i should not see it that way. that is an interesting thing to ponder, from many angles. but, that is what he seems to want me to understand or "come around" to, above anything else. which is why it obviously isn't resolvable. but i still feel kinda ****** about it. hmm.

posted April 16, 2008 05:17 AM         

I agree with Bluemoon perhaps he has been hurt in the past and acts like that I had a cancer boss that was like that,

it wasn't until I found out he was once robbed at gun point that he acted like that.

posted April 16, 2008 05:31 AM         

well he is kinda a hypochondriac too.. so that is very possible.

ugh. this is why i quit sex two years ago. too many messy overlaps that follow!!

i am now laughing about it. i think mostly i needed to give myself permission to feel bummed and not like i "deserve" it (yes, i am that pathetic!).

posted April 16, 2008 05:49 AM         

Fortunately, those types of arguments are very rare between us, but they've happened enough for me to think it may be this guy's Virgo influence that's making him so stubborn about not owing you. The issue with him isn't about being selfish, imo. It's about duty and details, which are Virgo issues. And he's using logic to tell him that he owes you nothing, and resents you enlarging the picture to also include emotion. Logically, he owes you nothing: there was no deal. But emotionally, the right thing to do is to give, especially to someone who has already been generous toward him.

I can remember a few similar fights with my brother when we were teenagers. We'd be out and I'd ask him to buy me something. Or we'd be at home, and he'd bring home some food and I'd ask him for some. In those cases, in the recent past I had bought him something. So he would preemptively argue against the idea of "owing me," saying that the situations were different and he'd list why. He'd say I'd given it to him w/o him asking for it, so it wasn't the same. When I gave to him, he'd say, it was a gift, and that if he'd known I would expect something in return, he wouldn't have accepted it. And he'd say this w/o thinking this attitude made him an @ss!

He's not nearly as selfish anymore, but he still sometimes fails to see the big picture. He gets obsessed with some detail that he thinks is all that matters.

A few months ago, we were hanging out. He'd already eaten dinner, but I hadn't eaten yet. He was driving so I asked him to stop at a restaurant. It was a fast food place, and typical of Virgos, he thinks that type of food is cr@p. I agree, but occasionally I want it. He said that since I avoid that type of food, it made no sense to eat it, that I'd just feel sick afterward, and he refused to stop there. Eventually I said he was a control freak and told him to bring me home. He still thinks he was right!

Like I said, he's not like this often (thank god), but arguing with him is a real pain. I sympathize with you and the type of "logic" you had to endure in your argument with this guy. I think it's the Virgo in them that makes them focus on one part of the picture and then resist another person's attempt to expand the picture, particularly if the expansion includes moral or emotional considerations.

posted April 16, 2008 06:18 AM         

i think you're right. it is the micro-orientation of virgo that is confusing me. it is actually VERY strong in him. he said all his exes broke up with him for being too critical. he really PUSHES his point to the point where he is completely focused on it and excludes everything else and doesn't even seem to realize he's doing it. and gets really agressive about pushing that point if you don't agree with him (or do, but try to bring in another perspective as well). it IS exhausting!

i have an ex who was also virgo rising who did a similar thing.

i do think everything happens for a reason though. and i know that i'm learning to not get to this point (of desperation) in my life and to stay on top of things and access resources, get help when needed. saturn return in virgo. and he was part of this learning. so on that level, i'm grateful.

posted April 16, 2008 06:55 AM         

I guess this is a case where Virgos are still learning discrimination regarding their duties. They intuitively know that they need a reason to be of service, but they're having trouble determining when they should act b/c of their tunnel vision.

What really made me see my brother in this guy was when you said he kept harping on him not owing you when you'd never even said that he did. That's what my brother would always do. Their bringing it up w/o the other person first doing so, shows how aware they are of service and duty, and how they're constantly analyzing when their service would be appropriate.

posted April 16, 2008 07:07 AM         

it's funny. he likes to tell me all the things i should be doing for my health, but in such a way that it's almost like he's trying to make me paranoid (and i'm pretty health conscious myself!). so, i know he's trying to help. but even with that, he gets really obsessed with it and it seems to personally insult him if i don't agree and rush out and buy the supplement he thinks i need!

he is a good guy though. it must be hard, or confusing being in that state of mind all the time. i guess we all have our lessons and our patterns.. it's confusing cuz i've never really known how to deal with him. i do sense that he's trying to be helpful in the way he knows how, but he's so pushy that all i do is stop talking or find a eventually find a reason to leave, because when he gets going he really does not stop..

i feel for you too jane! i guess all we can do is laugh right?

posted April 16, 2008 10:53 AM         

His actions are a reflection of how much he values you.

Even if you had approached it in another manner he still would have had some "debate" ready.
Cut your losses and lose him.

c’est la vie

posted April 16, 2008 02:05 PM         

The over-ANALizing thing is a Virgo trait as you know, but selfishness is not. He sounds like a user to me. I'd get my toaster oven back and dump the jerk. Of course he'll be back on your doorstep as soon as he needs something.

posted April 16, 2008 05:39 PM         

This man has other issues.