posted August 31, 2008 11:58 PM         

It occurs to me that I usually get in trouble for my words. My mercury is in Scorpio (plus, I was born on the Scorpio cusp). Examples:

I somehow formed an unspoken understanding in most classes where the teachers would let me do my own thing quietly (read, write, etc) and in exchange, I wouldn't ask questions they couldn't (or refused to) answer. When I forgot this and asked anyway, I was generally sent to the office for disrupting the class.

1 example was when 2 teachers were giving a "drugs are bad, m'kay" lecture, and were at the part of how drugs destroy all ability and motivation, and they'd earlier showed a silly video about a person on drugs who gets out of his car & walks away, leaving his car to careen down the street without a driver. So--and I was genuinely curious, I was NOT being snarky or challenging here--I asked (and I recall her cringing as she gave me permission to speak), "If drugs destroy motivation & ability, then why do the jocks and honor roll students have to take drug tests in order to gain full credit & honors?" Never answered the question, and again I was sent to the office for disrupting the class (some students did laugh and one clapped), and didn't answer it even after I left the classroom. I could list examples for a long time like this, and that's not even counting the stories & poems I'd write that also got me into hot water. I was seriously chastised, punished, and even tortured more for what I said (& wrote) than what I did. In real life I'm often scared to speak my mind as I do on-line for fear of more repercussions.

An example post-schooling is like back when I did laundry for a small fee. A customer had slipped in a shirt with a hole in it (I saw it before I put it in) and then claimed I put it in and refused to pay me. When she later decided to "forgive & give another chance" I refused, and asking why I simply answered matter of factly, "First time, shame on you, second time, shame on me." She carried out a relentless gossip campaign trying to destroy my reputation, and now when I refuse to do work for others, I just say I'm too busy or make up some other excuse, as I doubt I could weather more than 1 or 2 such slander campaigns.

It can be innocent, too. Like once a conservative was explaining to me how "conservatives don't depend on the government, believe the individual is responsible for himself, liberty is important, etc" and at some point I asked--in truly trying to understand, NOT being snarky--"so the ultimate conservative would be an anarchist [as in self-rule & refusing to submit to others, not as in trying to overthrow the government]?" And he was ticked at me, accused me of mocking him, etc.

I didn't even have to say anything to be persecuted. One boy who had been taught Creationism as part of his homeschooling by his extreme fundie dad rejected Creationism. His dad blamed me, but I had nothing to do with it (his son & I had talked about it, but he'd already rejected it by then), yet he threatened to kill me & bury my body secretly if he ever caught me on his property.

I've shared before how I scared & alienated that new age shop owner by quoting Crowley (at the time, I didn't know much about Crowley's life or reputation) when I was trying to make him feel better.

Most recently, a guy I sell crafts to asked me about my thoughts on the Olympics, and I said I didn't keep up with it, which earned me a lecture on how those games are the basis of western civilization, etc, and I smiled and nodded, not wanting to say anything because I need him to buy my stuff. But after 5 minutes, I finally added (in this case, I was a wee bit snarky), "Christianity is also a major part of western civilization, so should I also watch the Christian Broadcast Network?" He did not respond well at all...at least he still buys my stuff (which he sells), but he's been a lot more coldly polite about it.

Interesting enough, I actually make quite a bit from one guy by pretending to be victimized in our bargaining. He pays more than most, but he's convinced he's ripping me off hardcore, and that I know it but have no choice but to let him. He gets off on it. As long as I act & talk like I'm being ground under his foot & so desperate as to accept his abuse, he pays a lot (I consider the extra money I get out of him a fee for my pretending to be such a waif in his power). That is, he does seek to victimize me, and as long as I'm sure to communicate as a desperate victim, he pays well.

I just wonder how much of this is my mercury in Scorpio? If Scorpio gets persecuted, maybe this is why my words tend to get me in trouble, no matter how innocent my expression.

posted September 01, 2008 03:22 AM         

I can tell you I have Mars CNJ NN Square Ascendant on one side and Mercury on the other. Learning to keep my gob shut has been a life lesson. I think I am getting there now, maybe. There really are times when silence is the best option all around.

posted September 01, 2008 06:35 AM         

As for schooling, a teacher had a much more mundane explanation: I was way smarter than the majority of the class, and that conflicted with the lesson plan that was geared to the average. This meant I got bored and teachers, that had to stay with the lesson plan, couldn't do anything but ignore me and hope I didn't ask a question that wasn't in the keys/answer book (which even when the teacher knows more--or knows that the answer & textbook are wrong--are sometimes prohibited by the school board into expanding on).

As for people in general, I've noticed that many people have a special way they use vocabulary and a narrow tunnel to see reality with and think that what is obvious to them is obvious to everyone else, or there's something wrong with the people that don't "see it." The only way not to disturb these people is to not say anything at all that isn't part of the script for their particular view of the world.

However, others have a much broader reality and understand that there are many ways to understand the world. We tend to get along very well. For that matter, what I say that offends others very rarely offends me. Sometimes I get frustrated in trying to understand a question (so that I can answer it), but I don't blame the other person for asking.

And for the record, I'm not complaining. I look back on the things I said as a kid (or the sometimes unexpected reaction to it) and sometimes laugh. In any case, when I think back to when I spoke my mind (*) to when I kept my mouth shut, I tend to regret the latter more than the former.

(*Btw, I get the impression that somehow the fact that I was trying to comfort people or ask honest questions or even didn't say much of anything or even a poem or fictional story was often the cause of conflict as opposed to genuine snarkiness, and that you instead think I was trying to convert them to my view or insulting them. I'm baffled as to how you misunderstood what I said to think that.)

posted September 01, 2008 10:14 AM         

Mars Sag Opposite Uranus

Someone of my acquaintance fits this description. Given to making sharp comments, tact is optional. Never really cruel, but he likes to have a bit of a sh1t stir every now and then to wind people up.

Channelled to its best he has been involved in trade unionism, worker's rights, equality etc. Not afraid to stand up and say if something doesn't seem right.

There's nothing wrong with being outspoken in its place. But make a habit of it where it doesn't belong and watch your social invites dry up.

quote:

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12. gobsh1te

A mouthy person, who freely offers their opinion whether it is solicited or not.

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posted September 01, 2008 10:43 AM         

Seeing Stars, i just want to float this idea: most Scorpios (sun or heavily-plutonian people) are only hiding their pain or their dark experiences. You know, they are known for being secretive, looking composed and having the best smokescreen in the zodiac. They don't bare their soul because doing so will make them feel vulnerable. anyway, we are not into purely sun sign astrology. maybe the Scorpios you know have lots of "neutralizing" configurations in their charts. Think about this next time you are with a Scorpio, especially if it's a jolly Scorp.

posted September 02, 2008 11:13 PM         

I know that my chart was supposed to say that I'm urged to find inner-knowledge, and that's true enough. Even my fics tend to be very introspective, what the characters are thinking about what's happening rather than describing the events as they unfold mechanically (I'm told I have a very good talent for changing points of view, for example a character might try to escape an agent of a tyranny after having liberated prisoners from a brutal camp whereas the agent sees himself pursuing a terrorist fugitive, and each chapter is generally told from one character's PoV). My questions are often designed on "how do you reconcile this?" For example, when I asked why the jocks and the honor roll students were tested for drugs after being told drugs destroy all motivation and talent, I was trying to see how that made sense to the ones giving the lecture, as it's too discordant to make sense to me. Not so much because it's stupid (though it's that, too), but how does the faculty explain it to themselves? Surely they have a rationale...I notice all kinds of contradictions and paradoxes in myself and I'm very active in trying to sort them out and figure out what makes me, what makes me tick, who I am, what I represent, what do I stand for and why...and by figuring these same questions about others I learn how I relate/connect to them (as well as many other useful things), as well as for learning new views (for my stories if nothing else). Actually, whenever I choose to pursue higher education, I'm thinking I'll probably major in philosophy.

It seems to me that most people don't seem to understand or appreciate suggestions that the world as they see it is not self-evident to everyone else and that there are other valid ways to see it. Most of my closest friends tend to be artists, philosophers, Discordian pranksters, and even a Jungian psychologist who are aware and intrigued by differences, just as I am, and I love exchanging ideas with them, even when they have some radically different notions. It's FUN. But I've found people like that rare. I guess ego gets in the way too much. Ego used to be more of a problem with me, too, but my time in a Discordian cabal helped me to overcome a lot of that (and accept a more absurdist position, one that believes that reality ultimately confounds all dogmas).

Even as a homeless runaway, I seemed to get along with many of the schizophrenics and other mentally ill, including one that got violent with most people but always seemed friendly towards me (there were times he told me to leave him alone and I did).

Anyway, in another thread a scorpio mentioned that scorpios are persecuted, which is why they come off as defensive & paranoid. Accepting that as a possibility, I recalled that I had a Mercury in Scorpio and that my self-expressions have often not been taken kindly. This is not to say I'm persecuted exactly (though there are a few times I was), just that I find I have to be careful. Maybe Mercury in Scorpio had something to do with that.

posted September 03, 2008 01:13 AM         

Take the example of your teacher with the anti-drug lesson. In your mind, you noticed a contradiction. It's a "gotchya" moment with the teacher's argument (video said drug kills motivation yet you know successful students are suspected of using drugs). So you throw this insight back at the teacher, because as a Scorp Merc you would delight in tossing that thought around in your own head to get a deeper understanding of the topic. But when you simply throw the contradiction back to someone who endorsed it, you're asking them to defend the contradiction or claim defeat. It immediately puts you in the "bad cop" role watching the other person squirm.

I find others are much more willing to explore contradictions in their own beliefs when you frame the conversation more in the sense of "help me understand this idea." Basically, invite them to play the game you're playing in your own head, but play it more gently since they may not like it rough. State the contradiction you see in a way that explains why that contradiction is significant to you. Because w/o giving meaning to that contradiction, the other person sees you as having no goal in pointing it out in the first place other than to say like Nelson from The Simpsons, "Ha ha!" Something like, "Drugs may kill ambition for some people, but I'm wondering if drug use by the scholars and jocks shows that drugs don't always kill ambition, but might actually help those kids cope with the pressure that their ambitions place on them" would've let the teacher know that your motivation was a deeper understanding of why people use drugs, not simply a desire to point out an argument's weakness.

If people know that you're tearing an incomplete argument down in order to build an argument up again that makes more sense to you, if they know that you're expanding on the conversation because of sincere curiosity, they're more willing to play along. (And even if they don't play along, they won't feel attacked.) Keep the reason for your curiosity subjective--YOU want to better understand--and others will be more likely to accompany you down that path (learning, in a way that's comfortable for them, along the way).

With communication, I think it's so mportant to keep in mind how the other person will best hear what we have to say. We have to decide--do I want this person to know what I see as the truth, or do I want them to know that I think they're a dumb*** ? We all at times want nothing more than the latter. But when we really want to have a discussion with someone, the other person will be much more open-minded and unguarded if they feel safe with us. People are more likely to move past their egos and freely & creatively explore ideas after they first feel like their ego is respected and valued. Scorpio Merc can be rough and not so delicate since we're like that with our own thoughts, so we have to be careful to assure people that we value them, and that we're just inviting them into our heads to explore ideas.