posted June 09, 2011 12:06 AM            

I am new to these boards and I hope that I'm following protocol. While I will cringe inwardly, please feel free to slap me and tell me to move on.

If anyone wants to take a shot at this, I will post the charts. Just let me know. There was a certain "destiny" involved in the matchup between my husband and me (I will get into details if pressed) but for the last few years, the situation resembles the destiny involved in King Kong vs. Godzilla. That said, we don't fight a lot, but we wear each other down. Despite our shared Sun sign, we are diametric opposites and we agree on next to nothing, and feel oppressed by each other.*

I have been told that my Sun, Moon, Pluto and angle of my chart have been on the ropes for years (apparently a perfect storm of sorts, which I might never see again); more than 2 people have foreseen some relief on the horizon in November or December. However...

My husband had a lot of participation in "the perfect storm." His chart would indicate this, wouldn't it, if only as a ripple which became a tidal wave in mine? And otherwise, wouldn't I have some kind of debt to him, for having made him the partial bearer of my woes?

I know we have free will to be able to make decisions in life, but in the face of planetary lack of cooperation, what is a spouse to do? "In sickness and health" and all, but what if marriage and parenthood were too much to bear in the first place, without apparent bad luck from the cosmos?

Please, someone, set me straight. I am just thoroughly lacking in hope at this point.

posted June 09, 2011 02:17 PM            

Post your synastry chart please..

posted June 09, 2011 02:43 PM            

Unless there has been cheating or abuse of any kind I wouldn't rush to a divorce.

posted June 09, 2011 04:17 PM            

Me:

Him:

Us:

posted June 11, 2011 06:40 AM            

Ok one of the hardest things I see here is that his Saturn conjuncts your Chiron and Mercury.

His Venus/Mercury square your Saturn, your Saturn opp his Neptune and then his Moon opp your Saturn.

You guys have a double whammy of Sun opposite Pluto all happening on your AC/DSC axis.

What you are probably feeling now is more of the Saturn stuff. Saturn works a bit slower and over a longer period of time. Pluto's impact hits rather fast, or at least the energy is felt a bit faster. When Saturn hits a personal planet esp Sun, Moon, Venus, Mars with a square or opposition it acts like a wet blanket over time. You initially feel secure with each other, like safe, stable relationship and you both like that. But then something seems to shift after the relationship becomes 'official' in this case, probably your marriage. It seems that everything that once attracted you to that person is gone now, or you despise them for it. For example if loved someone free spirit over time you may come to see it as a problem in your relationship and they will start to feel like they can't be free. Whoever is the Saturn person (mostly you aspecting his planets) is the one usually dealing out the lessons. Does he seem more frivolous to you now? More like another child you have to pick up after? That's your Saturn to his Venus. Communication is also blocked with his Mercury squaring your Saturn. He probably feels like he can't share his thoughts with you, his ideas, or just plain conversation. Your Venus is unaspected (at least within 5 degrees, I'll check later for any wider aspects) which is not a good thing in a relationship. Combine that with the fact that your outer planets hit his Venus hard, much harder than the your Jupiter can help smooth over it makes it difficult to feel loved and loving in a relationship.

The Sun opposite Pluto dynamic between the two of you creates this push/pull of control between you. You both want the control, whether you realize this consciously or not. Pluto feels this need to break down the ego of the Sun to make it part of itself. To unite them together but the Sun takes this as a threat to it's individuality and fights tooth and nail because the Sun without it's individuality is nothing. Or at least feels so. This aspect alone is very difficult, with a double whammy even more so and with little help from the other planets it really creates this silent battle for control.

To be frank I don't see why you two got married. I understand the attraction and the pull but not for a marriage. I can definitely see how this could be a very stimulating life friendship but it feels like because of the marriage you two have become rather indifferent to each other. I bet you sleep with your backs facing each other and not touching. It's kind of sad. My advice? Search for that spark that brought you two together, if you you two can't seem to fall in love again then maybe divorce is an option and I say that because of the kids. Children very easily pick up on love and whether two people love each other or not, irregardless of words. It's very difficult to grow up knowing your parents don't love each other and on some level resent the life they share. They carry that burden into their relationships and reflect what they have learned into their relationships as well. When children see that their parent don't love each other and are not loving to each other then they have difficulty showing love to others as well.

posted June 11, 2011 06:26 PM            

Thank you so much for such a detailed analysis of the situation. This must have taken a considerable amount of time and I really am in your debt. So many things ring true...

I hope my response below isn't too lengthy (I am long-winded, I know). Thanks again for the clarity.

You don't know his birth time?

This is the closest he'd get to it for me. He scoffs at my interest in astrology now.

Ok one of the hardest things I see here is that his Saturn conjuncts your Chiron and Mercury...then something seems to shift after the relationship becomes 'official' in this case, probably your marriage.

That sounds right, although it was when I got pregnant (we'd set a date, but weren't married yet) that his attitude toward me changed. After that he became rude, critical, and distant, and I chalked it all up to new husband/new father jitters.

It seems that everything that once attracted you to that person is gone now, or you despise them for it. Does he seem more frivolous to you now? More like another child you have to pick up after? That's your Saturn to his Venus.

That's very true. He has never lived alone, and has always been "cared for" by others, and it shows. It wasn't a problem until I had our first child and then I didn't have time to take care of the baby, keep the house clean, bring in an income AND be his full-time life manager while pretending it's really no bother. I suppose he felt resentful - and petulant, like a teenager! - that suddenly I wasn't providing all that I used to.

Communication is also blocked with his Mercury squaring your Saturn. He probably feels like he can't share his thoughts with you, his ideas, or just plain conversation.

I was struck by his lack of planets in Air. Me, I'm *really* chatty (yet another thing he sneers at me for, now). Is that my Mercury in the 7th house coming through? In any case, we really can't communicate - he either blows up or falls completely silent whenever I try to bring up "serious" business, even if I do it gently and quietly. He doesn't "get" my humour, he doesn't enjoy my writing, he just generally doesn't see the point of me, I don't think.

While I'm looking at the 7th house, I've also got the Moon there - I do tend to "mother" in relationships. Does that make sense? I also usually get "Momma's boys."

Your Venus is unaspected (at least within 5 degrees, I'll check later for any wider aspects) which is not a good thing in a relationship. Combine that with the fact that your outer planets hit his Venus hard, much harder than the your Jupiter can help smooth over it makes it difficult to feel loved and loving in a relationship.
So is he not feeling loved/loving or me? I was star-gazer to his star for a long time, and our world revolved around him (stupid me, for setting that kind of expectation!). Then when we had kids, the love had to get shared around a little - he couldn't be the Sun King anymore. He basked in all the early glory but I'm afraid he was never very affectionate, romantic, or loving towards me. Suddenly I have the picture of a cat in my head - no offence to cat-lovers out there, I love them myself. But he was there to soak up all the love and then leave, which he did eventually, abruptly, cruelly, and coldly, when I was pregnant with our 2nd child. I took him back after a lot of counselling and he now gives romantic presents and cards on the usual holidays but them seem hollow, like this is what he figures he is supposed to do but doesn't know why.

The Sun opposite Pluto dynamic between the two of you creates this push/pull of control between you.You both want the control, whether you realize this consciously or not

I'd say that's bang-on. There's a lot of myway/highway in our relationship now. I was once too accommodating and immature as well, but once the children came, I had to change for the safety and happiness of the kids and my own sanity. I figured that he'd have the common sense to change with me.

To be frank I don't see why you two got married

Me neither, now!

I bet you sleep with your backs facing each other and not touching. It's kind of sad.

Sleeping like pals. We've always been that way, though: he doesn't like to cuddle or show physical affection, and never has. Sex was usually the result of a nudge in the middle of the night. I always figured that he had so many good qualities that I shouldn't be so critical and selfish to want someone to cuddle me or hold my hand. However, now we haven't been intimate (sorry if that's a TMI) in almost one year, and frankly, while I miss sex, I don't miss sex with *him* because it feels like it had so little to do with me.

My advice? Search for that spark that brought you two together, if you two can't seem to fall in love again then maybe divorce is an option

I know what you are saying about the kids. Whenever I think, "Gawd, am I ever being selfish to want to be loved," I remind myself that my kids will model themselves after what they see at home, and obviously I want better than this for them!

I think the spark is gone for good. It isn't that I don't have affection for him, but we were probably ill-suited to begin with, and my insistence on growth against his inability/unwillingness to grow were the real show-stoppers.

posted June 11, 2011 07:16 PM            

I know his type and I don't need astrology to tell me that you need to leave him. I say that for the sake of your children yourself and for him. He needs to learn to grow up and be a man. There is no reason that you should[have] been pulling all that weight, giving birth, raising and child and bringing in the income. Even 'traditional' people would frown upon the fact that as a man he isn't/wasn't bringing home the bacon.

Neptune also plays a big role in your charts but I didn't address it because I was more interested in the issue at hand. Your Sun trines his Neptune and his Moon conjunct your Neptune, which your Moon further triggers by trining this combination. It all points to falling in love with an ideal rather than what you actually see.

And for you other question, I suppose he perceives your love as cold to him, possibly because you didn't 'take care of him' like he's used to. So basically he doesn't feel very much loved by you and there doesn't feel loving towards you.

All in all this issue doesn't look like something that will improve, a part of you has already moved on and you seem quite set in the fact that this is it. From what you describe I don't blame you. If divorce is not possible for monetary reasons then separation.

You don't ruin a person by asking him to take responsibility he agreed to take (by marrying you and having a baby with you). All he did is show you his true colors.

posted June 11, 2011 11:33 PM            

I've been scratching my head about this one for some time... is he bipolar? Borderline personality? Autistic? Garden-variety immature? The truth is, that I don't know for sure, and I'm not even convinced that he does know what a person - another person - needs to feel loved!

It's ok to scoff at someone interest in astrology when you've just met them but not to someone who you're married to and have kids with.

Strangely, he *will* get interested in tarot, psychics and the paranormal and then do a complete about-face and dismiss it all as rubbish. Then he changes his mind again. Total black-and-white thinker, only what is black one day is white the next. The chopping and changing the hallmark of life around here. What's the best thing in the world one minute is hell on earth the next. It's honestly like a carnival of mirrors at times.

He needs to learn to grow up and be a man. There is no reason that you should[have] been pulling all that weight, giving birth, raising and child and bringing in the income.

I do have to give him some credit for trying harder recently, at least around the house. I hope I didn't give the impression that he wasn't working - he always has been, but there's always been a great imbalance. He kept his money separate, he resented taking care of the baby even for an hour during the day, and refused to take the baby at night. Meanwhile, I went to work fulltime while getting up every two hours to nurse, and then had no help at all at night. He told me once that when I brought in half the income, he'd do half the housework. It was my fault for getting pregnant and not having a great job, after all. It was almost like, "here I was, living this great life, and then along came you."

Neptune also plays a big role in your charts ... It all points to falling in love with an ideal rather than what you actually see.

I wonder if this is where we saw each other as some kind of salvation, a way of fixing or adding what was broken within ourselves.

When I start trying to explain it, I run in circles. I half-expected for someone to look at the charts and say to me that I was the nut who ruined this poor decent guy's life! I still get confused - he shows me some small kindness and I think, "Oh, see, I got him all wrong."

There's always been a lot of projection and "gaslighting" - at times I've had to ask for outside opinions because I'm so uncertain of myself and what really happened. It is truly incredible how quickly one can fall under a type of shared delusion and become desensitized. I remember telling a story at work which had become "funny" in our house but the woman I told it to looked shocked and said, "That's no man who would do that to a woman." I said to myself, "She's right to be appalled, but she doesn't know him. He's just immature."

posted June 12, 2011 05:58 AM            

If you don't mind telling me about the story that you told at work?

It's hard to determine a lot about his life and mental well-being when there is no definite birth time. The aspects and signs that the planets are in can only tell us so much. When he have the houses and house rulers we have a clearer picture of where these things play out, what part of the persons life does he express them in.

You seem like such a nice woman. Very gentle. You didn't ruin his life. It takes two people to create it. Unless you got pregnant on purpose then it's not your fault. (the getting pregnant I mean) I'm sorry but the fact that he didn't want to take care of his child even for an hour shows that he is no father. That's extremely disgusting in my eyes.

Immaturity is ok to an extent. By that I mean it's not a bad thing to act like a kid sometimes, but when it gets in the way of work, family and your life, your responsibilities then it's a problem.

posted June 13, 2011 10:30 PM            

The story at work…

I was about 7 or 8 months pregnant and he was shaving his head in the upstairs bathroom. I offered to help. Since he is taller than me, I suggested that it would work better if he were sitting in a chair, but we didn’t have any chairs upstairs. So he stood there and waited for me to get the chair for him, and when I said, “I’m pregnant – you should go and get the chair,” he told me that it was my belly that was the problem, not my arms, so I should be able to go down and bring a chair (and not a folding one but a full-size straight-backed dining room chair) back up.

I thought at the time it just showed 1) his lack of understanding of pregnancy and 2) his immaturity. No, I didn’t get the chair, by the way… and he grumbled and stormed down to get it. I thought that was a sign of his embarrassment – that surely he must realize how ridiculous his expectation was, and his anger was at himself and not me (I’m very used to seeing that in various family members).

For that reason, it became a “funny story” with the angry part omitted. He bought into it as well when the story was told to his friends. "He's such a boy - so much to learn! What a funny guy!" as he's generally known as an endearing madcap. However, the horror on the face of the woman at work convinced me never to tell the story again -soft-lensed or otherwise - to anyone. She didn't know him to be charmed by him, and would doubtless have been extremely disgusted if I'd told the full story.

In some ways, I wonder if I wasn’t subconsciously providing us both with an out: if I interpret his actions a better way, he can save face and by extension, so can I, I guess, for putting up with him!

I do have a gentle heart (too gentle - I wish I could toughen up) but here’s where one of my faults comes in – I tend to react with anger when I’m hurt (Aries moon?). That isn’t something I can blame him for – I used to be a real crier but once into my teenage years I started girding for battle instead. It takes me a while to get angry, but when I do it is very forthright, quick, and ugly, but I don't hold grudges.

When he did the chair business and any number of other selfish, careless and callous things, I didn’t cry – I thought he was joking, and joked back. Then when I realized he was serious, I tried reasoning with him. Ultimately, I called him on it (like, “You’ve gotta be kidding me!”) and he got angry. Over time, I’ve skipped right over joking and reasoning (probably because there's no disbelief or faith anymore) and jumped right to calling him on it – angrily. Needless to say, we can’t fall back on the humour of the situation to soften the sting when the humour was never there in the first place!

I guess I’ve spent a lot of time attributing things to his fear as well: fear of not knowing what to do with the baby, fear of general failure, fear of getting older, fear of responsibility. In retrospect, I took on a lot of what should have been his fears to work out, but I was doing so because I thought that’s what you do in a marriage – share the pain as well as the pleasure – and that I could help him. He is really not a reflective person at all, and doesn’t look back to say, “Now, why did I do such a thing?” and then work it out so it doesn’t happen again. Me, I do that on a constant basis and it is another aspect of our personalities (and our marriage) where there is an apparently unbridgeable chasm.

posted June 15, 2011 01:42 PM            

As far as him working, I must have misunderstood and thought he was out of work for a while. Even so, making more money than him does create an imbalance in the status of the relationship. Men usually start to feel inferior and less capable.

Now charm. Ok charm is a nice quality but one that leaves a funny feeling in my stomach because to me it's just a sort of sugercoating for bad qualities. It's actually a quality I immensely dislike in people and makes me throw up my guard as if it was the Wall of Berlin.

quote:

---

I guess I’ve spent a lot of time attributing things to his fear as well: fear of not knowing what to do with the baby, fear of general failure, fear of getting older, fear of responsibility. In retrospect, I took on a lot of what should have been his fears to work out, but I was doing so because I thought that’s what you do in a marriage – share the pain as well as the pleasure – and that I could help him. He is really not a reflective person at all, and doesn’t look back to say, “Now, why did I do such a thing?” and then work it out so it doesn’t happen again. Me, I do that on a constant basis and it is another aspect of our personalities (and our marriage) where there is an apparently unbridgeable chasm.

I will try to get a more concrete birth time. I know that we all have free will, and that the gifts we are given are ours to utilize or squander, and our deficits are ours to deal with or ignore, but I wonder if his chart won’t indicate that he should have stayed single and free forever?

---

This fear you speak of, we all have it. I'm sure a part of you was scared of being a mother. I'm sure that there many fathers/mothers to be out there that are terrified of screwing up. All these fears are wide ranging, many people have them. He needs to get over it. He's afraid of getting older? Well so am I. I'm terrified of having a wrinkled face. What I'm more terrified of is having accomplished nothing in my life. In his case he has children, those are his accomplishment or failure based on his actions. What I'm trying to say is that irregardless of his fear the least he could've done is TRIED to be a good father. Parenthood between a married couple is a shared responsibility and so is the fear that comes with it. And yes in marriage you share the pain and pleasure but the key word is SHARE, you cannot do it all on your own. You need to stop thinking that by marrying him and having children you ruined his life. I'm sure he wants you to think that way because he therefore cleared of any responsibility in your relationship. But it take two people to create a relationship and two do destroy it. There is a bit of responsibility to be shared both ways.

posted June 15, 2011 03:03 PM            

I found out a more accurate birthtime. I may get further confirmation if I can, but this certainly changes a few things (his Ascendant, for one). I deleted the old and replaced with the new, above.