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Author Topic:   Prayer Unconstitutional?
Oxychick
unregistered
posted May 01, 2003 06:21 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just thought this was interesting... check out this blurb from the NY Times:

VIRGINIA: COURT RULES PRAYERS UNCONSTITUTIONAL A federal appeals court
panel has ruled that prayers said before evening meals at the Virginia
Military Institute are unconstitutional, rejecting arguments that the
prayer is voluntary because the cadets are adults. The ruling by the
three-judge panel of the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth
Circuit held that the obedience demanded of cadets did not give them
the freedom to choose not to participate.

I didn't want to post the entire article, but you get the picture.

What are everyone's thoughts?

You see...I'm sure no one honestly believed this forum would stay quiet for long. Once politics die down, there's always religion. Of course, religion just bring us right back to politics again.

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N_wEvil
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posted May 01, 2003 07:11 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i wonder if they'll be saying pasta shells were unconstitutional next as opposed to pasta twists.

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Oxychick
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posted May 01, 2003 07:20 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry, but I can hardly see the analogy between pasta shells and mandatory prayer.

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N_wEvil
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posted May 01, 2003 08:30 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
well, it was a sarcastic comment expressing the fact i'm not impressed by the court essentially trying to enforce a draconian measure.

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
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posted May 01, 2003 03:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think that the court is overstepping it's bounds. The cadets are not required to pray, they can think about anything they want to think about...shopping, food, God, whatever.

We're turning into a society that is so afraid to believe in a religion or God because we fear it will "offend" someone.

When my brother played football for Laguna Hills High School, he was reprimanded for kneeling on one knee and praying before the games. He didn't stop, he told the school that his belief in God is more important than playing football and if they wanted him to stop, they find another all star. He also led a team prayer before the games.

Funny thing is, it wasn't his school that complained. It was the parent of a player from another team that saw him and was offended. That woman needed a hobby.

I admire my brother for standing his ground. He always makes me proud to be his big sister.

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theFajita3
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posted May 04, 2003 05:12 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
They can't take away my right to pray!

------------------
food is the only art that nourishes!

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Lost Leo
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posted May 04, 2003 05:47 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looney Hills High School...

A bunch of bozos over there... LOL j/k

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Oxychick
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posted May 04, 2003 07:26 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Funny..I had expected a different response! Haha

I personally think manadatory prayer is not only unconstitutional, but terribly invasive as well.

Sure, in the idealic sense, people should have the freedom to choose their own beliefs. But that's pretty hard when they're constantly shoved at you and a country doesn't take enough steps to separate church and state....I was more than a bit ticked off at the makeshift cross at the wtc site. Maybe I should ahve said that in my wtc thread.

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 04, 2003 08:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
LOL...whatever Lost Leo didn't you attend Mission Potato High? Hey at least we weren't the Laguna Beach Artists. I, moved in with my dad to Yorba Linda, so I ended up graduating from Esperanza...home of the Aztecs, thank you very much. My little bro stayed in Laguna and graduated from LHHS. He was a kick ass football player. NOW, he is a typical male Sag. Cliff diving, ocean fishing, camping, hunting, basketball, rock climbing, raquetball...etc...he can't seem to get enough of the outdoors. He graduated LHHS in 1992.

Okay, gotta run.

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Lost Leo
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posted May 05, 2003 01:27 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mission Potato... ahhh the high school years just come rushing back

And YES, THANK GOD we were not the Laguna Beach Artists!

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trillian
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posted May 05, 2003 01:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for trillian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Personally, I agree with you completely Oxychick.

I DO believe people have a right to choose their own beliefs, they DO and WILL. But being forced to participate in mandatory prayer, which may or may not reflect your own beliefs, is indeed invasive, and unconstitutional.

God/Goddess/god comes in lots of colors and flavors, and many people are willing to agree that it's still ALL ONE GOD...until you want to attach another name to him/her, say, Allah. My semi-born-again birthparents were all for equity, until I presented them with the proposal that we just switch God-names everyday, to appease everyone. Then they kinda freaked.

My understanding of the article you posted is that the cadets, because of the obedience demanded of them, previously did not have the right to choose to opt out of prayer, that it was mandatory. So I am in favor of the decision.

Prayer doesn't offend me, nor would a football player who kneeled in prayer before a game. I have my own way of praying, every day. But it's personal, as it should be, and shared only with those who care to share it with me.

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Lost Leo
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posted May 06, 2003 02:45 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A wise man once told me,

"Religion is for people who need direction"

I think it holds some merit...

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Oxychick
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posted May 06, 2003 05:49 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've heard that too, LL.

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trillian
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posted May 06, 2003 10:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for trillian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wasn't it Marx who said that religion is the opiate of the masses...sadly, I find some truth to that too.

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 06, 2003 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Then I must be someone in desparate need of some direction or an opiate. LOL....maybe the need for religion is in the eye of the beholder and those that cannot understand the need for a God or the desire to worship with others are afraid of what they don't understand.

Marx needed an excuse. God gives us free will and makes us all unique to fulfill a destiny (if one believes that) communism is the exact opposite.

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N_wEvil
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posted May 06, 2003 12:34 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm of the opinion that religion was a popular political tool, but its never really appealed to me.

Why is communism the opposite, exactly?

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Lost Leo
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posted May 06, 2003 12:41 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Marx needed an excuse. God gives us free will and makes us all unique to fulfill a destiny (if one believes that) communism is the exact opposite"

God DOES NOT give us free will, where did you get that from?

Religion, JUST LIKE GOV'T, is a system developed by man, FOR MAN, TO CONTROL MAN. Usually just to make man feel better about himself and his life.

It is like a crutch to give meaning to our otherwise worthless lives...

That is why I BELIEVE the "Meaning of Life" is to pursue whatever you feel gives your life meaning... whether it be Religion, Having Children, A Proud Career, or joining the Peace Corp.

I don't understand why people have to buy into flawed man-made institutions that try to control every aspect of their life to give it meanng?

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trillian
Newflake

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posted May 06, 2003 01:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for trillian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
pidaua, I only said I find *some* truth to it, not that it is an absolute! I would never imply that you need anything! Judging from your pics and posts you are a person quite comfortable and confident in her skin! (You're very beautiful, too)

Personally, I'm not afraid of what I don't understand, in fact, I seek things all the time that I don't understand, in order to understand them. I've been in many churches,grew up going to Mass. On the contrary, I have found many of those I know who are very deep into their religions develop a sometimes myopic view of the world, and it is they who become afraid of what they don't understand.

But I respect everyone's right to choose, and will always and forever only argue these points only on an academic basis. Whether part of a religion or not, our beliefs are dear to us and I do not want to insult or challenge anyone on a personal basis.

To paraphrase a line from _Stranger In a Strange Land_...thou art already God.

I don't believe our lives are worthless, and I am not advocating communism...

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N_wEvil
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posted May 06, 2003 01:33 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
the meaning of life is 42.

or was it 49?

i cant remember.

Either way, you create your own meaning for life, even if the so-called glorious capitalist regime in place constrains us to living either a certain way or in a ditch somewhere.

free will *titters* heeeheee, you fire people are so funny sometimes. Unfortunately as a side effect of being such a productive bunch of corporate multifunction biological tools we do wind up feeling a little worthless now and then, or at least thats one possible truth.

Anyway, doubtless everyone will now jump on me and tell me oh-how-wrong i am because obviously their way is the best way and everyone loves it. It's all rather sad that we can't be more tolerant.

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trillian
Newflake

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posted May 06, 2003 01:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for trillian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How many roads must a man walk down?

42

So long, and thanks for all the fish.


(I didn't use the nick Trillian for nothin'!)

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 06, 2003 01:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lost Leo,

God does give us free will. Where in the hell did you get the opposite from? Read the Bible. God give us choices everyday, do we want to follow or not? In the same way that Astrology can give us a snapshot of what we may be or what talents we have, we still have free will to make decisions.

If God did not give us free will and we chose to not to believe what would happen? Nothing. Because we are given free will to explore, to choose, to accept.

Then again, I am Lutheran and I have different beliefs than from the Catholic Church. My religion teaches tolerance for others and that have direct access to God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. Am I ashamed of what I am? No! Do I push it onto you? No! I have spent YEARS studying the Bible, learning chapter and verse as well as other religions. That is what I do, I research before I make a choice or a decision. THAT IS THE FREE WILL I HAVE BEEN GIVEN.

Now, in the Bible it is stated that we are free to accept the Word of God if so choose. Not accepting doesn't mean a bolt of lightening will come out of the sky and strike us dead.

There is MAJOR individualism in the Bible from the various careers chosen by the diciples to the chapters on that we all have a different role to play in life. The one story that sticks out is that we are all different parts of the body that makes us a whole. Not all of us can be hands or feet...etc...that demonstrates that God gives us the choice to be individuals as well as the free choice to believe what we want.

NOW, I cannot help if you had religion shoved down your throat or if you were made to be ashamed of who you are, I can only look at the Bible and religion from my point of view.

It is true that MAN twists and turns the word of God and religion to make it something of a tool to abuse others. It is also true that MAN does the same thing with anything that MAN gets his hands on. It is true when it comes to someone using Astrology, Magick and even Politics to get people to confirm to a specific way of life.

NW, I won't even dignify your question with a response as I have already addressed those issues in the past.

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 06, 2003 01:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
By the way Lost Leo,

You can just avoid that condescending tone when you address me. I won't put up with your **** regardless of what you have been smoking. Especially when you begin to attack me on a personal basis, you better damn well expect me to tear you apart.

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 06, 2003 02:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Trillian,

I wasn't directing the comment at what you said, I just incorporated it into the comment that I made, which was made kind of flippantly until Lost Leo came at me.

I understand what you mean and I agree that people twist religion to use against others. I thank you for your compliments. I know that you aren't afraid of what you don't understand, but others are, on the religious side and on the anti-religion side.


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Lost Leo
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posted May 06, 2003 03:17 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I haven't been smokin anything lately Good for me!

If you're basing your argument on the Bible as historical fact, then its utterly flawed.

So you want to tell me that a book...

well not actually a "book"...

a bunch of random narratives,

that were compiled 100 OF YEARS AFTER Jesus's death,

written by MEN,

TRANSLATED BY MEN THOUSANDS OF YEARS after they were compiled,

TRANSLATED AND TWISTED TO SUIT THEIR POLITICAL MEANS OF THE TIME...

IS TRUTH.......?????

Then you have been completely misguided my friend...

EX: ADAM AND EVE... LOL

Also, is has been theorized that man invented God to explain what he does not understand, but as we learn more and more and science is able to explain more and more, God has taken a backseat to reality.

I mean really think about it logically everyone...

An ALL-POWERFUL being, that knows everything, everyone, and is everywhere...
Sounds a bit like an wildly imaginative idea of a man, dontchatink?

I haven't decided whether I believe in one or not. I would like to believe in a God, and I find myself praying to him in times of serious need, but in all reality a "God" seems a bit propostorous, dontchatink?
(I guess that's where "faith" comes in)

I feel the same apathy towards all religions, and I feel no binding from the one I was raised into... eventhough I'm no longer a part of it

Take all the shots you want but you ain't gonna tear nothing up on this side...
(Science never loses to religion )

You know a question I would like feedback on that I always ask my friends,

With MILLIONS of different religions in this world, with MILLIONS of prophets, and MILLIONS of "HOLY BOOKS"...

How can just one religion be the right one?

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 06, 2003 03:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lost Leo,

You're argument is flawed. For one, you argue that God does not grant free will. The second point you make is that the Bible is not to be believed for it is not historical fact. So, tell me, if you do not believe in the Bible, then how can you state to know God and Free Will? By what divine inspiration did you somehow come to determine whether there is free will or not according to God's Word?

If you do not believe in God, then Free Will according to God is not something that should concern you anyway, is it? Or is your bitterness getting the best of you?

Do I believe in the Bible, yes, have I read other books? You betcha! Since you have known me to post on this board, have I not done my homework in regards to specific subjects? How about the fact that I went to a University that required I take: Religion 101, Christianity, Old Testament, World Religion, New Testament, Christian Ethics and Global Images as it relates to religion. Not to mention my scientific courses which were as secular as any other university curriculum and included evolution as well as evolution versus creationism.

We are not here to get into a debate over the historical relevence of the Bible. The point you brought up was God's Free Will, which you believe does not exist.

You also brought up that for those of us that are religious we must be somehow flawed. I find it quite facinating that someone living in a total glass house would get himself into a rock fight.

What is even more facinating is that fact that for someone as grounded in religion like me, I also study my American Indian religious roots as well as astrology and other metaphysical philosophies. I choose not to demean someone for their beliefs or their non-beliefs. I also feel that I am good company as many of our religious elders, leaders were also astrologers.

As to your other doubts, it's called Faith. DO I believe in the Trinity. Yes, and I will never be ashamed of that. I will never be ashamed to attribute my life to a Supreme Being.

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