posted February 16, 2004 10:38 AM              

I would first focus upon his spiritual beliefs as they seem to define him
as a religious maverick, truly radical for his day and age... Jefferson was a very spiritual man, but seemed to abhor organized christian religion.....

heres jwhops quote IN FULL...seems to me he was talking specifically about organized ritual and dogma like the roman catholic church...

"The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against
every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800. ME 10:173

"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into
the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moor, 1800.

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.
He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for
protection to his own." --Thomas Jefferson to Horatio G. Spafford, 1814. ME 14:119

these next quotes remind me of the extensive posts elsewhere in lindaland by Dafreman.
Jefferson seemed to abhor what became of Jesus' teachings....
i would say Jefferson must have had a quite thoroughly liberal education...

The hocus-pocus phantasm of a god like another Cerberus, with one body and
three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Smith, December 8, 1822 Jefferson's Works, Vol. IV, 360, Randolph's ed.

The metaphysical insanities of Athanasius, of Loyola, and of Calvin, are, to my understanding, mere relapses into polytheism, differing from paganism
only by being more unintelligible. The religion of Jesus is founded in the
Unity of God, and this principle chiefly, gave it triumph over the rabble
of heathen gods then acknowledged.
-- Thomas Jefferson, equating the Dogma of the Trinity with polytheism November 4, 1820)

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme
Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823,

I have ever judged of the religion of others by their lives.... It is in our lives, and not from our words, that our religion must be read. By the same test the world must judge me. But this does not satisfy the
priesthood. They must have a positive, a declared assent to all their interested absurdities. My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest. The artificial structures they have built on the the purest of all moral systems, for the purpose of
deriving from it pence and power, revolt those who think for themselves,
and who read in that system only what is really there.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Mrs. M. Harrison Smith, August 6, 1816

posted February 16, 2004 01:25 PM            

Jefferson sound like some kind of, *gasp* radical!

I abhor the institution of the church- specifically some the the things that have been perpetuated in the name of Jesus by the church. (okay okay I'll admit it.. I still carry a pretty big grudge about the witch-burnings. I've never gotten over being tortured and killed by the inquisition in a past life. )

But, I'm a little weird on the issue of prayer in the schools. I don't think there should be prayer in the sense that the Christians often mean it. No, I think there should be an ethics class from a very young age where the philosophical and ethical ramifications of our own and societys' actions can be discussed. It would talk about the perspectives of a wide range of religions and philosophies. The teacher themselves would have to have another facet added to their education and that would be for them to learn about world religion and be able to keep the class discussion flowing and not stagnating on or emphasising a particular philosophy (IE-whatever the dominant religion is of the group. Like Christianity would be today)

You see.. I agree that because our schools are totally devoid of any ethical teachings it has led to many children without any moral guidance.. Not all mind you.. I was raised in a basically atheist household and certainly got no ethical teachings in school but I have found my own path to spirituality and God/dess. But as a whole I would like to see our culture just think more about the moral and philosophical ramifications of the actions we are collectively taking.

posted February 16, 2004 03:20 PM              

your comments are NOT off topic as i see it....
or would it seem , as Jefferson saw it....

Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

i wonder what he would have thought of bush jr calling the war on terrorism a "crusade"?

"This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while."
- George W. Bush

i believe Thomas Jefferson was truly tolerant of all beliefs

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82 (capitalization of the word god is retained per original

I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance, or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Edward Dowse, April 19, 1803

hmmmm think Jefferson would support federal grants to religious charities?

posted February 17, 2004 09:53 AM              

progressive
NOUN: A person with liberal political opinions: liberal, liberalist. See POLITICS.
ADJECTIVE: 1. Ahead of current trends or customs: advanced, forward, precocious. See PRECEDE. 2. Not narrow or conservative in thought, expression, or conduct: broad, broad-minded, liberal, open-minded, tolerant. See ATTITUDE, WIDE. 3. Favoring civil liberties and social progress: liberal, liberalistic. See POLITICS.

that definition seems to describe Jefferson pretty well
heres just a small number of examples

liberalism is justice

"[A] reasonable disposition,... sensible that advantages are not all to be on one side, yielding what is just and liberal, is the more certain of obtaining liberality and justice." --Thomas Jefferson to Robert Walsh, 1818. ME 15:176

"But we must await with patience the workings of an overruling Providence, and hope that that is preparing the deliverance of these, our suffering brethren. When the measure of their tears shall be full, when their groans shall have involved heaven itself in darkness, doubtless a God of justice will awaken to their distress and by diffusing light and LIBERALITY among their oppressors, or at length by his exterminating thunder, manifest his attention to the things of this world, and that they are not left to the guidance of blind fatality." --Thomas Jefferson: Answers to de Meusnier Questions, 1786. ME 17:103

Nothing must be spared to convince [the Indians] of the justice and liberality we are determined to use towards them, and to attach them to us indissolubly." --Thomas Jefferson to John Sibley, 1805. ME 11:81

on a liberal education

"The advance of liberalism... [encourages] the hope that the human mind will some day get back to the freedom it enjoyed two thousand years ago." --Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1821. ME 15:308

"Laws will be wisely formed and honestly administered in proportion as those who form and administer them are wise and honest; whence it becomes expedient for promoting the public happiness that those persons whom nature has endowed with genius and virtue should be rendered by liberal education worthy to receive and able to guard the sacred deposit of the rights and liberties of their fellow citizens; --Thomas Jefferson: Diffusion of Knowledge Bill, 1779. FE 2:221, Papers 2:527

on liberality in foreign relations

"In national as in individual dealings, more liberality will, perhaps, be found in voluntary regulations than in those which are measured out by the strict letter of a treaty, which, whenever it becomes onerous, is made by forced construction to mean anything or nothing, engenders disputes and brings on war." --Thomas Jefferson to Alexander, Emperor of Russia, 1804. ME 19:143

"A nation, by establishing a character of liberality and magnanimity, gains in the friendship and respect of others more than the worth of mere money." --Thomas Jefferson: Special Message, Jan. 13, 1806. ME 3:406

aristocrats versus democrats

"Call them, therefore, Liberals and Serviles, Jacobins and Ultras, Whigs and Tories, Republicans and Federalists, Aristocrats and Democrats, or by whatever name you please, they are the same parties still and pursue the same object. The last one of Aristocrats and Democrats is the true one expressing the essence of all." --Thomas Jefferson to Henry Lee, 1824. ME 16:73

here he seems to DEFINE republicans AS liberals

"In a free society, differences of political sentiment result in different political parties. These sentiments resolve themselves naturally into two basic parties: the authoritarian (or monarchist, tory, etc.) that favors government that controls the people, and the democratic (or republican, liberal, etc.) that favors government controlled by the people. The body of the nation chooses a path that is mapped by one or the other of these parties." -Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson clearly put himself left of center, as in his Nov. 24, 1823 letter to Lafayette:

"The parties of Whig and Tory are those of nature. They exist in all countries, whether called by these names, or by those of aristocrats and democrats, cote droite and cote gauche, ultras and radicals, serviles and liberals, the sickly, weakly, timid man fears the people, and is a Tory by nature. The healthy, strong and bold, cherishes them and is formed a Whig by nature."

back in europe, the aristocrats sat to the right of the speaker, the representatives of the common man sat to the left. this was the origin of left-right wing terminology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics

the tories were the aristocrats(right) ,the whigs were the democrats(left)

later the republicans named themselves the DEMOCRATIC REPUBLICAN party and the federalists named themselves NATIONAL REPUBLICANS...
http://www.edgate.com/elections/inactive/the_parties/

posted February 17, 2004 04:33 PM              

LOL

posted February 18, 2004 03:14 PM              

"I fear no injury which any man can do me. I have never done a single act, or been concerned in any transaction, which I fear to have fully laid open, or which could do me any hurt if truly stated. I have never done a single thing with a view to my personal interest, or that of any friend, or with any other view than that of the greatest public good; therefore, no threat or fear on that head will ever be a motive of action with me. 4 —

TITLE: The Anas.
EDITION: Washington ed. ix, 209.
EDITION: Ford ed., i, 312.
PLACE: [none given]
DATE: 1806

I can conscientiously declare that as to myself, I wish that not only no act but no thought of mine should be unknown. —

TITLE: To James Main.
EDITION: Washington ed. v, 373.
PLACE: Washington
DATE: 1808

When tempted to do anything in secret, ask yourself if you would do it in public; if you would not, be sure it is wrong.

TITLE: To Francis Eppes.
EDITION: D. L. J.365.

There are no mysteries in the public administration. Difficulties indeed sometimes arise; but common sense and honest intentions will generally steer through them
TITLE: To Dr. J. B. Stuart.
EDITION: Washington ed. vii, 64.
PLACE: Monticello
DATE: 1817

Duty tells me that the public interest is so deeply concerned in your perfect knowledge of the characters employed in its high stations, that nothing should be withheld which can give you useful information. —

TITLE: To President Madison.
EDITION: Washington ed. vi, 101.
PLACE: Monticello
DATE: 1813

I always consider it as the most friendly service which can be rendered me, to be informed of anything which is going amiss, and which I can remedy. —

TITLE: To Wilson C. Nicholas.
EDITION: Washington ed. v, 400.
PLACE: Washington
DATE: 1808

of course bush jr has already appointed convicted(then pardoned) criminals into the current administration....(poindexter, armitage etc etc)

— The House of Representatives having concluded their choice of a person for the chair of the United States, and willed me that office, it now becomes necessary to provide an administration composed of persons whose qualifications and standing have possessed them of the public confidence, and whose wisdom may ensure to our fellow citizens the advantage they sanguinely expect. —

TITLE: To Henry Dearborn.
EDITION: Washington ed. iv, 356.
EDITION: Ford ed., vii, 495.
PLACE: Washington
DATE: Feb. 1801

I'm not sure Jefferson would endorse either "candidate" offered by the two parties currently in power....but he would surely want the public to be offered all the information before elections....

An aristocracy of wealth [is] of more harm and danger than benefit to society. —

TITLE: Autobiography.
EDITION: Washington ed. i, 36.
EDITION: Ford ed., i, 49.
PLACE: [none given]
DATE: 1821

Aristocrats fear the people, and wish to transfer all power to the higher classes of society. —

TITLE: To William Short.
EDITION: Washington ed. vii, 391.
EDITION: Ford ed., x, 335.
PLACE: Monticello
DATE: 1825

The minds of the people at large should be illuminated, as far as practicable, that they may be enabled to know ambition under all its shapes, and prompt to exert their natural powers to defeat its purposes. —

TITLE: Diffusion of Knowledge Bill.
EDITION: Ford ed., ii, 221.
PLACE: [none given]
DATE: 1779

The bill [of the Revised Code of Virginia] for the more general diffusion of learning proposed to divide every county into wards ....to establish in each ward a free school for reading, writing and common arithmetic....Worth and genius would thus have been sought out from every condition of life, and completely prepared by education for defeating the competition of wealth and birth for public trusts. —

TITLE: To John Adams.
EDITION: Washington ed. vi, 225.
EDITION: Ford ed., ix, 427.
PLACE: Paris
DATE: 1813

A heavy aristocracy and corruption are two bridles in the mouths of the Irish which will prevent them from making any effectual efforts against their masters. —

TITLE: To James Madison.
EDITION: Ford ed., iv, 38.
PLACE: Paris
DATE: 1785

The [French] aristocracy [in 1788-9] was cemented by a common principle of preserving the ancient rιgime, or whatever should be nearest to it. Making this their Polar star, they moved in phalanx, gave preponderance on every question to the minorities of the Patriots, and always to those who advocated the least change. —

TITLE: Autobiography.
EDITION: Washington ed. i, 104.
EDITION: Ford ed., i, 144.
PLACE: [none given]
DATE: 1821

natural aristocracy=merit artificial aristocracy=evil

There is a natural aristocracy among men. The grounds of this are virtue and talents.....There is, also, an artificial aristocracy, founded on wealth and birth, without either virtue or talents: for with these it would belong to the first class ....The natural aristocracy I consider as the most precious gift of nature for the instruction, the trusts, and government of society.....I think that to give them [artificial aristocracy]power in order to prevent them from doing mischief, is arming them for it, and increasing instead of remedying the evil....Mischief may be done negatively as well as positively. Of this, a CABAL in the Senate of the United States has furnished many proofs. Nor do I believe them necessary to protect the wealthy; because enough of these will find their way into every branch of the legislature to protect themselves....
TITLE: To John Adams.
EDITION: Washington ed. vi, 223.
EDITION: Ford ed., ix, 425.
PLACE: Monticello
DATE: 1813

OMG!!!!! did he say there was a CABAL in the senate??!!....i guess conspiracy theories ARE the forte of the left!!!!

From what I have seen of Massachusetts and Connecticut myself, and still more from what I have heard, and the character given of the former by yourself, who know them so much better, there seems to be in those two States a traditionary reverence for certain families, which has rendered the offices of the government nearly hereditary in those families...But although this hereditary succession to office with you, may, in some degree, be founded in real family merit, yet in a much higher degree, it has proceeded from your strict alliance of Church and State. Those families are canonized in the eyes of the people on common principles, “you tickle me, and I will tickle you.” —

TITLE: To John Adams.
EDITION: Washington ed. vi, 224.
EDITION: Ford ed., ix, 426.
PLACE: Monticello
DATE: 1813

that rules out KERRY also....
Rush Limbaugh claims you dont have to watch the news...he'll watch and interpret it for you!!!
PLEASE everyone...think for yourselves....

My opinion was never worthy enough of notice to merit citing; but since you ask it, I will tell it to you. I am not a federalist, because I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself.

TITLE: To F. Hopkinson.
EDITION: Washington ed. ii, 585.
EDITION: Ford ed., v, 75.
PLACE: Paris
DATE: March 13, 1789