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Author Topic:   Iraeli Checkpoint Gaurd: "We are Humans. They are Animals."
proxieme
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posted March 28, 2004 07:03 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh, whoa.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

I just woke up and turned on CNN Headline News, coming in in the middle of a story about potential abuses to Palestian detainees at Israeli checkpoints.
They showed a few young men being detained - one arrested and taken away, one set free - after a long while in the prone position with plastic handcuffs cutting into their wrists.
The reporters asked the makers of a sensitivity training CD-ROM made for Israeli soldiers if that was in line with what he had been teaching; he said that it was.
The reporters then showed some other footage that hinted at the possibility of there being abuses away from the camera's eye, with a soldier saying in reference to detainees, "We are safe as long as the animals are in cages. We are humans. They are animals."

O_o

O_oo_oo_O

Um, wow.
Is anyone else completely blown away by such a statement coming from a JEWISH ISRAELI guard?
I mean, given the relatively recent history of the Jewish people and the fact that the very same quote could have possibly come from a Nazi Concentration Camp Gaurd, doesn't that strike you as ODD?
Or, at the very least, not too terribly reflective?

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ozonefiller
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posted March 28, 2004 09:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I chose the latter Proxieme, concidering the fact that this kind of attitude has been going on for quite some time(I'm the least bit suprised),ever since I heard of that story about the poor American female student that got bulldozed by an Israili tank (just before the airstrike in Iraq a month prior to the fact) of protecting a Muslum families' home from being totally crushed,I believe truely that the state of Israil is going way too far(if nothing at all)about they're tactics on keeping the peace between them and the Palestinians!

A couple of days ago I was speaking extensively to a resident of the Jewish state(over yahoo voice chat) and the person that I got to talk to has given me the impression that he was looking for my sympathy over the Israil peoples predicament with Palestine. He kept on going on about how the Muslums "just keep on taking and taking no matter how much we give them, it's just never enough!",so I ask him with clarity,"With all that bulldozing of your militant personel (that you guys have over there) and all the extentions that your people's quest to make for the Hebrew Nation is complied,when does the completion of 'New Fort Lauderdale' will finally become established,in other words,when does Israil draw the line of they're so-called strict religious rites,so that the Palestinians can finally find a place to live?",veering away from the subject,he would start off answering,but then he kept on telling me other things about the muslums to me and never telling me what I have asked from him. So, in the mists of going on and on,I just cut him off!

I asked him a simple question,all I wanted was a simple answer!

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TINK
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posted March 28, 2004 12:48 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sad that the Israelis have become the Nazis. In case someone freaks - I said the Israelis NOT the Jews. Big difference now in my book. I guess it true that we become what we most hate.

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ozonefiller
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posted March 28, 2004 02:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's also hardening as a NATO country like that of the United States that redeemed the Jews from the cold, bloodied, rotted shadow of the Holocaust, only to find in due time that this flashback would echo through(over sixty years) of the same things by the state that represents them,but this has just come in and I(I really don't want to say this)have a very BAD premonition about to what is to play out,as you all read:

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (March 28) - The new leader of the militant group Hamas on Sunday called President Bush the enemy of Islam and said that "God declared war" against Bush, the United States and Israel.

In a speech at Gaza's Islamic University, Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi said he was not surprised that the United States vetoed a U.N. Security Council resolution condemning Israel's assassination on Monday of Hamas spiritual leader Sheik Ahmed Yassin.

"We knew that Bush is the enemy of God, the enemy of Islam and Muslims. America declared war against God. Sharon declared war against God and God declared war against America, Bush and Sharon," Rantisi said. "The war of God continues against them and I can see the victory coming up from the land of Palestine by the hand of Hamas."

The United States lists Hamas as a terrorist organization. The militant group has carried out many of the suicide bombings that have killed more than 450 people in the current conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

Immediately after the Israeli missile strike that killed Yassin, Rantisi and other Hamas leaders threatened to retaliate against the United States, Israel's staunchest ally. However, a few days later, Rantisi backed down from the threat, saying Hamas would only be active in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Israel.


03/28/04 06:46 EST

I'm sorry if anybody here would take any of what I say as personal, but this is all too serious(like a heartattack) and I'm...

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Isis
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posted March 28, 2004 02:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Isis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That's a hugely complicated situation that I think is oversimplified by categorizing it as Israeli's being like Nazis or the Palestinians being killers, which to a degree they both are.

By my estimation (IMO) it's a horrible situation, and being that both involve cultures that hold grudges and aren't big on forgiveness, I see no end in sight to be honest, except something globally devastating.

If we had to live in fear that every Arab on every bus, on every street, outside every cafe or nightclub could be wired w/ explosives, or conversely if we had to live in fear that a foreign government was going to bulldoze our homes and shoot our children, we'd also be a bunch of ****** off stubborn ******** unwilling to compromise.

I must say that I think they are both playing the world for fools. Neither side wants to cooperate, despite claims to the contrary. They both want the other GONE - at just about any cost, and with that kind of attitude it's doomed.

I also don't think that anything will be accomplished until Yasser Arafat dies (from old age - they can't kill him, then they'd make him a martyr). He's got a stranglehold on the entire process, I believe he does covertly fund Palestinian terror attacks, and holds back the peace process because he just doesn't want peace. He wants the Jews gone.

Same w/ many in power in Israel - they too I believe would prefer for the Palestinians to just "go away", whatever that means.

These folks (both Israel and Palestine) have done atrocious things to each other, and both have an eye-for-an-eye attitude, which just causes a never ending cycle of violence.

I'm just saying it's easy to demonize one viewpoint or another, but I think it's important to realize the history behind the attitudes (recent history, not ancient, although that's certainly relevant too), and that they often just as bad as each other and both perpetuate this cycle.

If you spoke to a Palestinian, you'd hear the same one-sided subjective views, just with different complaints and arguments.

The statement by the Israeli soldier doesn't surprise me at all. You come to view the "enemy" as an animal and it makes it easier to do your job, esp. if that job happens to be to protect to the point of killing. It saddens me, but it doesn't surprise me in the least. The longer the situation is allowed to continue the more pervasive I think you'll find this attitude on both sides.

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“The good things which belong to prosperity are to be wished, but the good things that belong to adversity are to be admired.” Seneca

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ozonefiller
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posted March 28, 2004 02:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
But I don't think that I'm the only one feeling the heat,check this out!

JERUSALEM (March 28) -- Israel's state attorney formally recommended Sunday that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon be indicted for bribe-taking, an official close to the investigation said.

The state attorney does not have the last say on the matter; the final decision is up to the attorney general who is expected to rule within a month.

However, Sunday's reported recommendation would carry considerable weight and was seen as a major step toward a possible resignation by Sharon.

The Justice Ministry confirmed that State Attorney Edna Arbel made a recommendation in the Sharon case Sunday, but would not say what it was.

An official close to Sharon said Arbel's position in favor of an indictment was known for some time, and that her decision did not come as a surprise.

Arbel drafted an indictment against Sharon on Sunday and forwarded it to Attorney General Meni Mazuz, according to an official close to the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Legal analysts said Arbel's recommendation carries great weight, but that there is no legal reason for Sharon to step aside now. If an indictment is handed down, the prime minister would be under intense pressure to resign, they said.

Some analysts said that while under a cloud of indictment, Sharon could try to speed up his plan to withdraw from parts of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The proposed pullback is widely supported by the Israeli public.

"In the end, the attorney general won't be able to ignore the state attorney's opinion," Ofir Pines-Paz, a leading lawmaker from the opposition Labor Party, told Israel Army Radio. "The prime minister has to suspend himself until the attorney general's final decision is made."

Yossi Beilin, a leader of the dovish opposition party Yahad, also urged Sharon to step down.

Sharon has been plagued by a slew of corruption scandals since taking office in 2001.

The focus of this investigation is the so-called "Greek Island Affair."

Israeli businessman David Appel was indicted in January for allegedly bribing Sharon with US$690,000 to promote a tourism project in Greece and to help rezone urban land in Tel Aviv, before and after Sharon was elected prime minister.

In 1999, when Appel was promoting his tourism project in Greece, Sharon was foreign minister. Sharon's son, Gilad, was allegedly paid large sums of money so his father would use his influence to push the project forward. The project failed, as did the one near Tel Aviv.

Cabinet minister Uzi Landau called for a thorough investigation and prosecution of whoever leaked Arbel's recommendation to the media.

"I think we all have to wonder whether there was not an attempt to pressure the attorney general," Landau, a hawkish member of Sharon's Likud Party, told Israel Radio.

Legal analyst Moshe Negbi said Mazuz would only adopt Arbel's opinion "if he is also convinced...that there is a good chance of convicting the prime minister." Mazuz took office in January.

His predecessor, Eliyakim Rubinsein, decided against indicting several Israeli leaders - including former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former President Ezer Weizman - despite the state attorney's recommendation they be charged.


03/28/04 10:41 EST

True that Isis, but we had the intent to provide peace to the both nations(at least,I hope that we did),and instead we are being persecuted in more modern fashion! Either or...when is it right to be blaming the transgretions upon us as citizens of this country(US) for the misgivings of our arrogant leaders(I don't think I need to tell you who that is),where will they be the next time around when their's another 9/11? Where will we be...if it becomes worse than that?

NOTE: Please by all means,disregard the smilie face on top of this post,that's the last thing that I'm doing!

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proxieme
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posted March 28, 2004 03:45 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I, for one, wasn't saying that the Israeli's had become "like Nazis" - just that that comment and the attitudes it reflects, while (horribly, horribly) common in a protracted, violent conflict (across time, space, and culture), shocked me as it came from a person who's State's very existence was heavily spurred by a genocide that stemmed from just such sentiments.
Less than a century ago.

There're very different circumstances involved in the two situations, but...damn...sometimes you can't help but drown in the irony inherent in...shite...just being human.

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ozonefiller
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posted March 28, 2004 04:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't believe that it's only Yasser Arafat that would like to see the Israilis expelled,they ALL want to see the Israilis gone,if Arafat try to make any of the peace talks successful,they'd KILL HIM! You can wait all you want Isis,but in the end result(after Arafat dies)they be another one to take his place,that will go after the same goals,it's a no win situation. I mean really,it's not the same thing as US waiting for Castro to die...and who knows how any of that's gonna pan out!

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QueenofSheeba
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posted March 28, 2004 05:44 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To put it bluntly, the Middle East is full of ******** . Most of us are tired of trying to figure them out. I say the US stops backing Israel.

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Hello everybody! I used to be QueenofSheeba and then I was Apollo and now I am QueenofSheeba again (and I'm a guy in case you didn't know)!

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Isis
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posted March 28, 2004 06:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Isis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"You can wait all you want Isis"

Did I say I was waiting for something? I reread through my post, and it doesn't say anything about waiting.

I also didn't say anything about Yasser being the only one that wanted the Israelis gone, I said that I "don't think anything will happen until Yasser dies", meaning that he IMO is an impediment to the peace process inasmuch as the Israeli attitude that they're animals is.

I'm think you misunderstand me Ozone, I'm not proposing we wait around until Yasser dies to do something, I'm just stating the facts as I see them. More musings I suppose. I do that a lot, usually avoiding a conclusion because in such a quagmire as the Middle East conclusions are rarely conclusive.

Part of me thinks we should quit backing Israel, but I fear if we do, then without the threat of our might, a conglomeration of Middle Eastern & African nations will attack Israel (circa 1967), that Israel will freak out and use nukes, and well, it's all over from there. Worst case scenario maybe, but I am a Scorp after all - always seeing the worst case scenario

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“The good things which belong to prosperity are to be wished, but the good things that belong to adversity are to be admired.” Seneca

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ozonefiller
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posted March 28, 2004 07:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Uh,excuse me?

quote:
I also don't think that anything will be accomplished until Yasser Arafat dies (from old age - they can't kill him, then they'd make him a martyr). He's got a stranglehold on the entire process, I believe he does covertly fund Palestinian terror attacks, and holds back the peace process because he just doesn't want peace. He wants the Jews gone.

I'm sorry Isis,I was under the impression that you wrote all these things!

That's OK,I'm a Scorpio too! I understand!



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Harpyr
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posted March 28, 2004 08:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is such a complex issue.. It's hard to know what should be done.

I do know that Israel's wall is NOT the solution and will only futher exacerbate the problem. Bulldozing over farms and orchards and shooting randomly into crowds of Palestinians is ****** up too. Why on earth Israel, or should I say Sharon specifically.. thinks this will do anything other than breed more suicide bombers is beyond me.

My mentor and friend, Starhawk, is in Palestine right now. She is a Jew (by birth only.. she's not a follower of the religion) who has family in Israel so the issue really hits home for her. She's over there to attend the labor and birthing of her Jewish friend, Neta, who lives in the West Bank with her Palestinian husband and also witness and protest the Israeli security wall. She writes a frequent updates of what she sees and experiences on her journeys through Palestine.

It's a perspective worth reading for anyone who is concerned about this issue, IMO.

They are on her homepage, in the middle column entitled- 'What's new'- www.starhawk.org

There's older writings from previous trips to the West Bank and Gaza Strip under the link entitled 'Starhwk's writings'

If folks want to send her some white light too, that would be great.. I worry about her over there. She has a tendancy to gravitate towards the front line of conflicts and it worries me (and everyone else who loves her!) greatly. She's always trying to deescalate things, bless her big .

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TINK
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posted March 28, 2004 09:06 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Imagine. The Israelis building a wall. ?!? I'm oversimplyfying I know. It's just that if anybody in world should know better it should be them. Walls, house arrests, political assasinations, etc? c'mon, did they just want to see what it felt like on the other side of the gun?

I've gotta agree with you Isis. Neither side is really interested in peace. We are being played. And your assesment regarding our backing of Israel is dead on. If we don't back the ******** the entire Middle East will descend on them. And I've little doubt they would use nukes. Masada anyone?

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ozonefiller
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posted March 28, 2004 09:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
NOTE: This is the only thread that anybody is ever gonna witness that I am the only one not cussing on!

But I do sympathise however for you friend Harpyr,I do realize the total reality of knowing that somebody that a person feels for truely is possibly somewhere in harms way! If nobody else can or will,then I will send her way!


be with her!

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Isis
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posted March 28, 2004 11:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Isis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not believing something will be accomplished until an event happens and believing we should wait until that event happens to do something are not the same thing

To restate, I think little will be accomplished until Arafat dies, but I say to the world bodies that deal with this sort of thing, "have at it - and good luck".

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“The good things which belong to prosperity are to be wished, but the good things that belong to adversity are to be admired.” Seneca

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ozonefiller
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posted March 29, 2004 03:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I still don't see how you figure that Arafat is the nucleus and wormhole to the messes that this world(that we live in)is faced with,if anything,I firmly believe that all of the shenanigans that have been going on with the present leadership of the international community of peace,have been tarnished badly with shoddy proclamations of security by the Western hemisphere,in quest to shower such bogus implications onto the doubtful,MAINLY countries of the Eastern hemisphere,to prove to them that Democracy is a flop and that NATO is merely another name to call "The Holy Roman Empire"!

I don't know what YOU were implying to on your privious posts,but I'm still under the impression that you believe Arafat's death is gonna to cause great miraculous change onto the World at large, I'm sorry to disappoint you!

I also believe that you think I'm like Carlo,I am not!

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Isis
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posted March 29, 2004 04:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Isis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
LOL, I don't think you're Carlo

I think that Arafat is an impediment to the peace process, like a speed limit is an impediment to getting where I want to go as fast as I'd like to. It's not preventing me from getting there, it just slows me down. But I don't think he is the nucleus of the problem - that's cultural IMO. I can't think of another way to state it.

I'm not sure what you're debating, 'cause from what I can read, we agree w/ one another. Or at least, only speaking for myself, I don't disagree w/ a lot of your points.

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“The good things which belong to prosperity are to be wished, but the good things that belong to adversity are to be admired.” Seneca

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ozonefiller
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posted March 29, 2004 05:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
true, true Isis

But the point that I am trying to make is the fact that I don't think that Arafat is the only one with the "hand in the cookie jar",I believe that their are others!

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Isis
Newflake

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posted March 29, 2004 05:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Isis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"I don't think that Arafat is the only one with the 'hand in the cookie jar',I believe that their are others"

Well we certainly agree on that

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“The good things which belong to prosperity are to be wished, but the good things that belong to adversity are to be admired.” Seneca

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