Tehran's Farabi Cinema runs Moore's Movie (Fahrenheit 9/11)

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Author	Topic: Tehran's Farabi Cinema runs Moore's Movie (Fahrenheit 9/11)
quiksilver unregistered	posted August 18, 2004 08:55 PM I noticed this headline in a paper I was reading today and it prompted me to think about some other related matters that have come up on this forum. Most recently, we have been discussing the separation of church and state. What about the separation between country and world? I will explain what I mean (with a bit of a prelude): A deep-seated fear of elections is one key feature of the Islamist political psyche. The Koran includes a chapter entitled "Parties" (Ahzab) to warn against splitting the "Umma" (the community of the "faithful") into rival political groups vying for power. Clearly, religion is the primary element of the political system as it now exists in Arab countries. My question is this: Many of us are vehemently rejecting the notion of any connection between church and state as pertaining to the Bush administration. I personally believe that Bush does not intend to take away the right of the people to worship as they choose, and this is primarily what I really care about, when it comes right down to it. Many of you disagree, but ultimately, my question is: If we are to begin to live up to the concept of "Global Unity" (ie- not viewing ourselves as a separate entity that we refer to as a country called the United States), would this not involve the concept of spreading the idea that each person is free to worship, vote, live as he or she chooses, on a global level? And would this not involve challenging, in some form (not necessarily agressively unless lives were at stake) the so called political system in the Middle East? Think of it this way: We challenge our own President, if only here on this forum, and we live a free country (relatively speaking and in comparison to our brothers and sisters around the globe). Should we not also challenge other countries (based on the premise that we are trying to achieve global unity) when we see injustices and lack of freedoms, particularly in Arab regimes, which offer no freedoms whatsoever, other than the freedom to not be killed if one so much as suggests that religion should not be a part of the political process? Comparing this reality to the current situation in America, I think we are certainly much more liberal in this regard. Where do we draw the line (or DO we draw the line) as far as relating to other countries around the world when trying to convey this concept? When all people around the world are free to choose (or not to choose), regardless of religious beliefs, then we will have made greater strides towards freedom and by extension, unity. What should our roles as individuals be in trying to bring this about? IP: Logged
LibraSparkle unregistered	posted August 18, 2004 09:38 PM I really like what you're saying here, quiksilver. I need some time to ponder... but I'm definately coming back to this P.S. On a funny note, I find myself fighting the urge to call you "quikie" IP: Logged
Randall Webmaster Posts: 4782 From: The Goober Galaxy Registered: Apr 2009	posted August 19, 2004 09:04 AM ------------------ "Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark IP: Logged
quiksilver unregistered	posted August 19, 2004 02:29 PM "Quickie"!!! That's a new one Someone once called me Nestle Quik! I've had a few interesting nicknames growing up. Why not add another to the list!!! IP: Logged
lalalinda Moderator Posts: 1120 From: nevada Registered: Apr 2009	posted August 19, 2004 03:17 PM ok quickie, great post, its given me something to think about. on a lighter note, thats what our revolution was all about. Thank God we had far sighted men. I think (I'll double check)our legal system (Constituion) was based on the Roman laws. They had a great democratic system.(in theroy) They were just a bit barbaric. We (United States) have never mixed state and church policys. And its a government like this thats makes us so great. My daddy used to say, Your free to leave this country if you don't like it, but to be born an American is a privledge and you better think twice before you give it up. As far as these ideas and the way our government is run, it would never work in the middle east (not counting Isreal)For one thing thier education is not as valued as ours is. I don't even know the policy on women in school, but surely they don't consider women as equals (in fact they have few rights) its still legal for fathers to kill wives and daughters if they dishonor thier families. They could learn a lot from the French and thier policys on crimes of passion. I don't have an answer as far as our role in this intrigue, but whatever it is we're going to have to find people from that country that agree and unless they have been introduced to our culture and have the benefit of a good education (preferably in political science)they just won't get it. Heres a good question does it work??? We're not a super power for nothing. IP: Logged
trillian Newflake Posts: 0 From: Registered: Apr 2009	posted August 19, 2004 03:51 PM In my religion, we smoke lots of pot. We consider it a spiritual experience that brings us closer to God/dess. Am I free to worship as I choose? In my religion, we sacrifice living things. We believe it's spiritual, that God/dess not only approves, but requires us to do so as a testament to our faith. Am I free to worship as I choose? In my religion, Women are The Chosen. Men are here for servitude, protection, lawn care and automobile maintenance. They are lesser beings and shall not question Women. Are we free to worship as we choose? Freedom is tricky. By the way, personally, I belong to no religion. IP: Logged
quiksilver unregistered	posted August 19, 2004 04:21 PM Hi Trillian, I see what you are saying here. In a certain sense, no, you are not entirely free to do these things. But my question is centered around a different idea, namely the separation of religion and politics, on a global scale. The more these two are separated, the more freedom you will probably enjoy to do as you wish. I do not know if that will include killing living things for sacrificial purposes, or smoking pot. However, I do know that the government here in the US will not be taking my life if I am caught smoking a joint. Certainly there will be some penalty but I am freer in the sense that I get to live, whereas elsewhere, I may have my hand chopped off. I am talking in relative terms here. No system is perfect, politically speaking. But this is largely because people are not perfect. On another note, if one is not happy with the rule under which they live, they do have the freedom to move elsewhere. For example, if I am unhappy with the way government is run here, maybe I will decide to apply for citizenship to Ireland. I am free to do this. Or I am at least free to try. Incidentally, I AM actually in the process of applying for Irish citizenship..... for different reasons, though. Anyway, back to my original question though: "When all people around the world are free to choose (or not to choose), regardless of religious beliefs, then we will have made greater strides towards freedom and by extension, unity. What should our roles as individuals be in trying to bring this about?" IP: Logged
LibraSparkle unregistered	posted August 19, 2004 05:13 PM I think our number one personal, individual responsibility (as a global community of human beings) is to not look the other way... pretending it's not really there. This kind of apathetic aproach will never bring unity. Being empathetic to these issues (each and every one of us... especially those of us that are free-er), speaking in a metaphysical sense, would give more of the right kind of energy to those who are suffering in less than free countries. It could even give them strength to rise up and demand freedom. Of course this is purely speculation on my part, but we really don't know because of the tremendous amount of apathy in the world. I'm begining to fear the number of apathetic "free people" far out weigh the number of empathetic "free people". Once we stop being so apathetic towards other's suffering, IMO a whole new would of possibilities will open up. People will start thinking differently in terms of how to stop the suffering. If ALL of the people of the world cared about the state of humanity as a whole, dictatorships, tyrants, repression, genocide, ethnic cleansing, mass rape would be a thing of the past. They wouldn't be feasible. I am fully aware of how idealistic this sounds. But, idealism is really ideal to pretty much everyone (besides those people who are just wicked), isn't it? I am positive there are far more good people in this world than bad. Most of the apathetic people would fall into the catagory of "good", I believe. If all of those "good" apathetic people were to rise up against these things along with the empathetic people, amazing things would happen. This doesn't really answer your question though. sigh How do you get people to abandon apathy? IP: Logged
trillian Newflake Posts: 0 From: Registered: Apr 2009	posted August 19, 2004 07:40 PM quote: When all people around the world are free to choose (or not to choose), regardless of religious beliefs, then we will have made greater strides towards freedom and by extension, unity. What should our roles as individuals be in trying to bring this about?" Perhaps I don't understand. When people are free to choose...what? Religion? Anarchy is freedom, though I doubt that's what you're talking about. Otherwise, freedom is relative. Are you speaking of a New World Order? So long as there is government, freedom will remain relative. Your soul is free. Your spirit is free. I believe that life, in the Yin and Yang, will balance out. And we can't completely discount Karma, whether one believes in linear time or not. If one chooses a life of strife and suppression, and another chooses to be the suppressor, and it is all chosen on the Spirit level, who are we to deny them their choice? Sun in the 9th. Born a devil's advocate. I love Ireland, btw. Can't wait to go back. Interesting example...as women weren't free to divorce in Ireland till recently. But if you are familiar with Europe, you are aware that many Europeans consider Americans repressed and conservative... It's all a matter of perspective. Change your perspective, and you change the world. And that, dear friends, is the only change that matters. IP: Logged
LibraSparkle unregistered	posted August 20, 2004 01:45 PM Although pot is still illegal, the laws against it are much milder than the ones against stronger drugs like heroine. I guess it could be argued that you are free-er to smoke weed than you are to shoot smack. I have no qualms against admitting I am a pot smoker. The general public, and the government alike KNOW it's really not that bad. Here in Washington, marijuana laws are pretty lenient... especially for growers. Up to 100 plants is only a misdemeanor. Where they get tough is "intent to sell" and especially "intent to sell to a minor". Those folks go to the big house. IP: Logged
quiksilver unregistered	posted August 20, 2004 11:51 PM Ok, definitely would like to comment on the last few posts but it will have to wait till tomorrow since I am quite under the weather tonight. Sorry for the delay but I will be back soon!!!! IP: Logged
LibraSparkle unregistered	posted August 21, 2004 02:03 AM Get well in a quickie. IP: Logged
ghanima81 Moderator Posts: 518 From: Maine Registered: Apr 2009	posted August 21, 2004 11:01 AM ''Corrupt the young people of a nation, and the battle is won.''- Vladimir Lennon IP: Logged
QueenofSheeba unregistered	posted August 21, 2004 07:05 PM In regard to the original comment, I think that progressive elements in all religions are coming together to form a more inclusive interfaith communtiy. In a way, this allows every religion to be in 'the community of the faithful' mentioned in the Koran. ------------------ Hello everybody! I used to be QueenofSheeba and then I was Apollo and now I am QueenofSheeba again (and I'm a guy in case you didn't know)! IP: Logged
quiksilver unregistered	posted August 24, 2004 09:17 PM Ok, I am finally back! Apologies for the delay!! Hmmm, what to address first?? Guess I will start with Trillian... Ok, I guess I was a little unclear about the freedom (of choice) in question. I was referring primarily to the freedom to choose our political leaders without fear of negative repercutions based on religious fanaticism. (For example, being able to elect/nominate a political figure without fear of being murdered for supporting this person or the ideas which he or she represents). While freedom is relative, and is certainly kept in check via the structure of governing forces, we would probably agree that there are some basic freedoms which should be enjoyed by all. The right to vote, to worship as one chooses (provided no one is harmed in the process)without fear of being put to death, the right to gain employment without being discriminated against, etc., are just some of what I would think of as falling into the basic/human rights categories... Currently, in the US, we enjoy these basic freedoms. We do not all agree about the current administration in power but nevertheless we do still enjoy these basic freedoms. My question is centered around what, if anything should we do about implementing these freedoms in areas of the world which are entirely lacking them? Obviously, one person cannot do ALL the work. Everyone would have to do his or her own part in some small way. Or, are there those of you out there who would say, "Let's keep the status quo and let those people worry about themselves?" If this is the case, are we then operating against the idea of what it truly means to be unified on a global level? As an aside: Just recently, a friend of mine who is a professor at a local college started a club, the first of its kind, names "Mixed Spices". The purpose of this club is to bring together people of all races, religions and cultures. When I heard about it, I thought it was such a simple, yet fabulous idea. I went to school at a college where there were literally over 500 clubs! Each little clique had their own separate little club, doing their own separate little thing but as large and diverse as my school was (is), there was virtually NO club in place which catered to this or a similar concept. Pretty amazing, given that over 50,000 students total are in attendance. Anyway, even a little thing like starting a club can be a gateway of sorts, to increasing understanding. When we increase understanding across different groups of people (ie- globally), real differences have a much better chance of being made. I think it's just something worth thinking about. We spend a lot of time critizing what is going on in our own homeland, and certainly rightfully so at times. However, we at least enjoy relatively basic freedoms and my thought is that the more people around the world who share these freedoms, the greater the opportunity to become more unified as a people. What are everyone's thoughts on this? And if there are people in agreement, are there any global types of organizations any of you would recommend supporting? Libra Sparkle - I think you are right. Apathy can become a plague, if unchecked. I think it happens moreso when people become complacent about their surroundings and their roles in bringing about anything "new or improved". We have to always be mindful of falling into this trap, otherwise, true global unity will only be that much more difficult to attain... IP: Logged
trillian Newflake Posts: 0 From: Registered: Apr 2009	posted August 28, 2004 11:54 AM Have you considered the possibility that this world was not meant to be Unified? Ergo, by being what we have ordained ourselves to be, we are already Unified. I'm inclined to believe that the day we all relinquish religion is the day we will achieve something more akin to what you're talking about. Imagine Imagine there's no heaven, It's easy if you try, No hell below us, Above us only sky, Imagine all the people living for today... Imagine there's no countries, It isnt hard to do, Nothing to kill or die for, No religion too, Imagine all the people living life in peace... Imagine no possesions, I wonder if you can, No need for greed or hunger, A brotherhood of man, Imagine all the people Sharing all the world... You may say Im a dreamer, but Im not the only one, I hope some day you'll join us, And the world will live as one. --John Lennon IP: Logged
quiksilver unregistered	posted August 29, 2004 01:32 PM Hi Trillian, I must admit, I don't think that thought ever occured to me that the world was not meant to be unified... But you seem to have some thoughts on the matter. Do you think the world was not meant for this? If so, I would like to know why.... I am not sure what you meant when you said "by being what we have ordained ourselves to be, we are already unified". Would you be able to explain more? I just didn't understand what you meant by this? Thanks IP: Logged
LibraSparkle unregistered	posted August 29, 2004 01:46 PM Trillian, I totally agree about relinquishing religion. It seems many people are out of touch with their own spirits because they are so lost in dogmic belief. I've said this before, but, I really thing addiction to religion is very dangerous. Not physically, but metaphyisically. Much like the media, religion doesn't give you the whole truth. Just what they want you to think. Religion and Spirituality are two entirely different things. Just because a person is religious does not automatically make them spiritual. IP: Logged
LibraSparkle unregistered	posted August 29, 2004 01:46 PM whoopsie... double post IP: Logged
trillian Newflake Posts: 0 From: Registered: Apr 2009	posted August 29, 2004 09:50 PM quiksilver, I will be happy to say a bit more about my thoughts, but it will have to wait till tomorrow. It's growing late and I'm a bit tired. Peace, love and instant karma. IP: Logged
quiksilver unregistered	posted August 29, 2004 11:57 PM Ok It's late here too... Very very tired!!! 'Nite all! IP: Logged

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