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Author Topic:   Terror ends in Russia with 250 dead, 2/5 were children
ghanima81
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From: Maine
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posted September 04, 2004 10:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ghanima81     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know what to say, my heart hurts and my thoughts are with all the victims and their families. The cowards shot them in the back as they tried to flee.

Go here and read more:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004411015,00.html

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Isis
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posted September 04, 2004 01:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Isis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

The death toll is up over 300. Of course they're calling them "Chechen Fanatics", when they're really Chechen muslim fanatics...

If muslims w/in those communities and internationally don't start denouncing this stuff vehemently, and distancing themselves from it, I fear for their lives. The more innocents they murder, the more likely it is someone's going to just lay the blanket smackdown upon them all.

Islam Murders 41 People Today
Wish I could change that to, "Radical" Islam Murders 349+ in the Last 72 Hours - But Remember, It's a Religion of Peace"...

BS...Buddhism is a religion of peace. This is a religion of intolerance and coerced conformity. But that's just my not so humble opinion...

------------------
“The good things which belong to prosperity are to be wished, but the good things that belong to adversity are to be admired.” Seneca

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quiksilver
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posted September 04, 2004 09:51 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My prayers are with all those who have died or been harmed in any way as a result of this traqgic event. A few moments of silence seem appropriate.....

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QueenofSheeba
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posted September 05, 2004 04:00 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am so incredibly disgusted. They were fu.cking children. People who would do such as that are the scum of the earth.

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Hello everybody! I used to be QueenofSheeba and then I was Apollo and now I am QueenofSheeba again (and I'm a guy in case you didn't know)!

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Isis
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posted September 05, 2004 01:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Isis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
But QOS, didn't you say:

quote:
I can think of them only in terms of we-and-the-enigma. They are to me a benignly malicious unknown.

Maybe this event will convince you that benign is the last word to apply to these people. I also hope this event clarified their intentions, taking them out of the realm of "unknown" for you.

quote:
We are fighting an enemy that to me does not even exist.

Oh, they exist, as the loved ones of the some 328 dead children, teachers, and parents can vouch for.

------------------
“The good things which belong to prosperity are to be wished, but the good things that belong to adversity are to be admired.” Seneca

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LibraSparkle
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posted September 05, 2004 01:58 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've been putting off this article because I knew it would be disheartening.

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Harpyr
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posted September 07, 2004 12:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's absolutely heartbreaking. I was weeping as I read that article.

I feel the need to point out that there were something like 30 terrorists and only 10 of them were Muslims. Despite some who seem to want to spin this as a 'Look how evil those Muslims are' sort of incident, it seems like thats just not the case. This is aparently a retaliation for Russian massacres of Chechen children.


-----
Published on Monday, September 6, 2004 by the Guardian/UK
Bombers' Justification: Russians are Killing Our Children, So We Are Here to Kill Yours
by Jonathan Steele

Details began to emerge yesterday as to what may have driven the school siege militants, as yet unidentified, to commit such a horrifying act against children. Witnesses reported that the hostage-takers had attempted to justify their brutality by claiming it was an act of revenge for the killing by Russian forces of Chechen children.
Margarita Komoyeva, a physics teacher released the day before the terrible climax in Beslan, said: "One of them told me: 'Russian soldiers are killing our children in Chechnya, so we are here to kill yours'."

The words were amplified yesterday on a website that is close to Shamil Basayev, the most extreme Chechen commander, whom Russian officials think was the mastermind behind the Beslan atrocity. "However many children in that school were held hostage, however many of them will die (and have already died) ... it is incomparably less than the 42,000 Chechen children of school age, who have been killed by Russian invaders," said the statement on www.kavkazcenter.com.

Dead children, dead adults - brutal murder of more than 250,000 Chechen peaceful civilians by the invaders - all of it cries to heaven and demands retribution. And whoever these 'terrorists' in Beslan might be, their actions are the result of Putin's policies in the Caucasus in response to terrorism and crimes committed by the Kremlin's camarilla, which is still continuing to kill children, flood the Caucasus with blood and poison the world with its deadly bacilli of Russism."

The website quotes the Bible: "What measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you." (This is what Jesus said in The Bible - Matthew 7:2, Mark 4:24, Luke 6:38)."
....continued-

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proxieme
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posted September 07, 2004 01:44 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think only 10 were Arab/not Chechan.
The rest were Chechan Muslims -
I'm not saying that that is grounds for saying, "Look at what these evil Muslims have done,", but simply clarifying.

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ghanima81
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posted September 07, 2004 03:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ghanima81     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for pointing that out, Harpyr. I posted this as a way to express my deep sadness for those that suffered, not to jump on the muslim hating bandwagon. We have not been informed of the ''facts'' behind this massacre, and it seems easy to jump to conclusions when you see the word ''muslim'' pop up as those who are involved in acts of terror. Based on a few more articles I read today, (links to be posted later on tonight) the religious beliefs of the militants doesn't reflect on what they did. This act of terror was a ''payback'' of sorts to the Russians for slaughtering their children. I'm not saying in any way that their retaliation was justified, I'm merely saying you can't blame this tragedy on those involved being Muslims.

Ghani

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StarLover33
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posted September 07, 2004 07:02 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Unfortunately, there is a tight correlation between so-called muslims and terrorist acts, and you can't deny that. Sorry.

-StarLover

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Harpyr
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posted September 07, 2004 08:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes well there's also a definite correlation between so-called Christians and imperialist colonizers.

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LibraSparkle
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posted September 07, 2004 09:03 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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QueenofSheeba
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posted September 07, 2004 09:26 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dear Star- last time I checked, the IRA was not Muslim.

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Hello everybody! I used to be QueenofSheeba and then I was Apollo and now I am QueenofSheeba again (and I'm a guy in case you didn't know)!

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StarLover33
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posted September 07, 2004 09:39 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"So-called Christians and imperialist colonizers." -Harpyr
...and someone is calling me fearful and angry.

Queenofsheeba,
How does the IRA have any relevance to what we're talking about?

Why bother to respond, I can already smell the attacks coming my way?

-StarLover

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QueenofSheeba
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posted September 07, 2004 09:50 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Isis, please do not patronize me with lectures about the intent of Muslim terrorists. I know quite as much about them as you or anyone else here does. The knowledge of their existence does not preclude my inability to want to kill them. Nor do my feelings about the murder of X number of innocents compel me to do anything so simple as to 'hate' or 'fear' them. It does, however, make me feel sorry for the innocents.

"We are fighting an enemy that to me does not even exist."
Predictably, you confuse a simple 'we' and 'they'. To me they do not exist. Does that mean that they do not exist? Of course not. They most certainly exist. But not to me. I, at least, am not so arrogant as to think that what is true for me is true for everyone else. I will not confuse the difference between having knowledge of a phenomenon and being emotionally invested. Do you know of AIDS? Of course you do. Does it exist to you? I can't say. If a friend of family member were to be infected, then yes, it may come to exist for you, and were you to be infected yourself it most certainly would. Until then? You know of it and it does not exist.

[in case you're a tad confused, Isis, just remember that you're dealing with an art person. one really must differentiate between musings and logical arguments.]

And as to that bit about them being, what was it, 'benignly malicious'? I hold to that. They are benignly malicious. The problem is, I think, that one might simply take terrorism, the world today, one's country, and oneself a tad too seriously at times.
I am not unconcerned about terrorism. It bemuses me. I will be most eager to find out who, in the end, outlasts the other. It may matter to me right now. In the long run it is completely, completely inconsequential.

------------------
Hello everybody! I used to be QueenofSheeba and then I was Apollo and now I am QueenofSheeba again (and I'm a guy in case you didn't know)!

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quiksilver
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posted September 07, 2004 11:35 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Somehow, this thread has turned into somewhat of another bitter debate. There are points to be made on both sides. But it may be better to let them rest for the time being and instead offer a moment of silence for the victims of this tragedy.

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ozonefiller
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posted September 08, 2004 10:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Russia Says Accidental Blast Triggered End of Siege
326 Killed at School; $10 Million Bounty Offered for Suspects
By JUDITH INGRAM, AP

MOSCOW (Sept. 8) - The militants who raided a school in southern Russia last week were led by a man dubbed the Colonel, who enforced obedience by killing three fellow attackers - two by detonating the explosives they had strapped to their bodies.

Two days later, the attackers were moving the explosives they rigged around the gym where hundreds of hostages were held, and a bomb went off accidentally. That began the spiral of panic that led to the bloody conclusion of the standoff, in which more than 320 people were killed.

Those details were among several disclosed by Prosecutor-General Vladimir Ustinov on Wednesday, in the government's first formal attempt to account for the tragedy last week. It came as Russia offered more than $10 million for information that helps ''neutralize'' two well-known rebel leaders from breakaway Chechnya accused of planning the attack.

Ustinov, who met with President Vladimir Putin, said 326 hostages had been killed and 727 wounded in the attack, which ended Friday in a wave of explosions and gunfire as hostages tried to flee, and special forces and armed civilians tried to help them. He said 210 of the bodies had been identified, and forensic workers were also trying to identify 32 body fragments. The death toll could rise, Ustinov said.

Various officials had previously leaked some details of the investigation, but the government had not set out its own version of events until now.

The approximately 30 attackers, including two women, had gathered in a forest early on the morning of Sept. 1 and arrived at School No. 1 in Beslan in a military-type truck and two jeeps, packed with weapons and ammunition, Ustinov said.

They herded people who had gathered to mark the first day of school to the gym. Some of the militants objected to seizing a school, and their leader, who went by the name Colonel, shot one of them. He said he would do the same to any other militants or hostages who did not show ''unconditional obedience.''

Later that day, he detonated the explosives worn by two female attackers, killing them, to enforce the lesson, Ustinov said.

One of the militants was stationed with his foot on a button that would set off the explosives, Ustinov said; if he lifted his foot, the bombs strung up around the school gymnasium would detonate, he said.

On Friday, the militants decided for unknown reasons to reposition the explosives, and apparently set off one bomb by mistake, Ustinov said. That sparked panic, as hostages tried to flee, and the attackers opened fire.

That led Russian forces to storm the building.

Ustinov said his information was based on interviews with witnesses and the one alleged attacker who has been confirmed detained, identified as Nur-Pashi Kulayev. Officials believe the attack in the city of Beslan was orchestrated by militants from breakaway Chechnya.

Ustinov's deputy, Sergei Fridinsky, said that the bodies of 12 of the attackers had been identified, and that some of them had taken part in a June attack in the neighboring Russian republic of Ingushetia that targeted police and killed 88 people.

Some 1,200 hostages had been taken at the school, Ustinov said. It was the first official admission that the number of hostages had been so high; initially the government said about 350 people had been seized, and over the weekend a regional official said the number had been 1,181.

Ustinov's report came as the Federal Security Service, the main successor to the KGB, offered more than $10 million for information leading to the arrests of Shamil Basayev and Aslan Maskhadov.

The FSB said they had been responsible for ''inhuman terrorist acts on the territory of the Russian Federation.''

Maskhadov, the former president of Chechnya, had denied any involvement in the school standoff, according to aides. There has been no word from Basayev, a longtime rebel warlord who had claimed involvement in bloody raids and hostage takings in the past.

Echoing President Bush's advocacy of pre-emptive military actions to counter threats, a military official asserted Russia's right to strike terrorists the world over.

''As for carrying out preventive strikes against terrorist bases, we will take all measures to liquidate terrorist bases in any region of the world,'' Col.-Gen. Yuri Baluyevsky, chief of the Russian General Staff, told reporters Wednesday.

On Tuesday, Russians got a horrifying glimpse of the drama from video footage filmed by the militants who captured the school. The images, aired on a Russian television station, showed the heavily armed, hooded assailants amid the crowd of women, children and men in the school in Beslan.

The NTV station said the pictures - which showed hundreds of people crowded into the gym beneath a string of explosives dangling from a basketball hoop - were recorded by the assailants.

Hundreds of hostages were shown seated in the school's cramped gym. Many of them had their hands behind their heads. A thick streak of blood stained the wood floor.

Football-sized bundles of explosives were attached to wires and strings hanging from a basketball hoop. One attacker in camouflage and a black hood stood amid the hostages with a boot on what NTV said was a book rigged with a detonator.

Also Tuesday night, tens of thousands of people turned out at a government-backed rally in Moscow to condemn the terrorists and demand justice. Demonstrators bore banners with slogans such as ''We won't give Russia to terrorists'' and ''The enemy will be crushed; victory will be ours.'' Authorities said the event drew about 130,000 people.

''I have been crying for so many days and I came here to feel that we are actually together,'' said Vera Danilina, 57.

The demonstration, organized by a pro-government trade union, was heavily advertised on state-controlled television for two days, with prominent actors appealing to citizens to turn out. Banners bore the white, blue and red of Russia's flag, and speakers echoed Putin's statements that terrorists must be destroyed.

The Foreign Ministry said Russia would take new steps seeking the extradition of people it says are linked with terrorism, including Chechen rebel representatives Akhmed Zakayev and Ilyas Akhmadov.

Zakayev, an envoy for Maskhadov, has been granted refugee status in Britain. Akhmadov is in the United States.

The hostage-taking and other recent attacks ''will help many in the West, where Zakayev and Akhmadov have found political asylum, to see the true face of terror and understand the measure of their delusion,'' the ministry said.

Liberal Russian politicians and newspapers have criticized authorities' handling of the crisis, which some say further exposed the ineffectiveness of the Kremlin's hard-line policies in Chechnya.


09-08-04 0605 EDT

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ozonefiller
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posted September 08, 2004 10:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I didn't mean for the smilie on top of the last post either, sorry.

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ozonefiller
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posted September 08, 2004 10:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
from the September 08, 2004 edition

Anger rising in volatile Caucasus

School saga is inflaming old divides between ethnic groups.

By Scott Peterson | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

BESLAN, RUSSIA – Grief is turning to anger and deepening tension here in the Caucasus as Russia Tuesday took a second day of national mourning - and the residents of Beslan buried another 100 loved ones.
For people at the muddy gravesides and throughout this small town, the school-hostage tragedy is viewed through the lens of a brutal historic rivalry, which pits the Christian Orthodox Ossetians here, against Muslims of Ingushetia and Chechnya to the east.

By striking the pro-Russian Ossetians, the Chechens and Ingush militants are seen attempting to launch an ethnic conflict in this volatile region to broaden the Kremlin's quagmire in Chechnya. Indeed, the grief here is becoming overlaid with cries for revenge, and fears that the bloodshed - which left nearly 350 dead - could ignite a fresh regional war. The Chechen and Ingush hostage-takers could not have chosen a more explosive target.

"If everyone is going to war, I'll also go," says Eduard, a Beslan driver. "Everyone has an automatic gun, and so do I. We're peace- ful people, but ... what are we worth as men, if we can't protect our women and children?"

Anger mixes with rumors about atrocities committed by the school captors, though surviving hostages themselves deny that such abuse occurred.

"It's something horrible, this thing, like your Sept. 11," says Margarita Abayeva, standing beside the double grave of her nieces, Irina and Alina. "They castrated men and raped girls. We live side by side with people capable of doing that. We are Christians; they are Muslims. We ... hold them responsible."

President Vladimir Putin has vowed to prevent the hostage crisis from sparking a new conflict in the Caucasus. Local Orthodox Church officials say the same.

"At a moment of such grief, a person's soul opens, and people look at questions in a more spiritual way," says Father Sergei Maltsev, who runs Beslan's small church. "There is a political problem here. We try to solve it with things that unite us, not what divides us."

But this event is reopening a violent history between Ossetia and its Muslim neighbors of Chechnya and Ingushetia.

"Everyone thinks the Ingush are 80 percent to blame," says cafe owner Zaira Fidarova, who has a portrait of Soviet dictator Josef Stalin hanging on the wall. "It has become a saying, that if you ask an Ingush boy, 'Are you a man?' he will answer: 'I'm not a man yet, until I kill an Ossetian.'"

Mrs. Fidarova says of her customers are talking about revenge. "I know people will go if a war is going to start. Everyone will take up arms," she says. "As a mother I don't think this is a solution."

Analysts say war was one of the goals of the school takeover. "The main purpose of this terrorist act was to detonate interethnic war between Ingush and Ossetians," says Sergei Arutyunov, a Caucasus expert at the Russian Academy of Sciences in Moscow. "Authorities will have to make a maximum effort to block this tendency. If Ossetian volunteers will start pogroms, it will push Ingush towards Chechen separatists."

Hard-liners here remember the brutality applied by Czarists, Soviets, and Russians to Muslim communities in the Caucasus, which grated under Moscow's attempts to impose its rule. One name often invoked is that of Alexei Yermolov, who vowed to subdue the region when he became military chief in 1816.

"I desire that the terror of my name should guard our frontiers more potently than chains or fortresses," he declared. "Out of pure humanity, I am inexorably severe.... One execution saves hundreds of Russians from destruction and thousands of Muslims from treason."

General Yermolov's contempt was matched by that of Stalin, who on the night of Feb. 22, 1944 - at the height of war with Nazi Germany - drew resources from the front to begin a mass deportation of more than 600,000 Chechens, Ingush, and other Muslims to Central Asia. One quarter of the deportees died in the first five years.

"Stalin didn't finish things with the Chechens: He deported them but didn't kill them. He should have killed them, we are convinced of that now," says Fidarova.

Reverence for Stalin has undergone a renaissance in Beslan. Though demonized abroad for killing millions in concentration camps, Stalin is revered here in part because one of his parents was an Ossetian. A bust was erected two years ago, and "Friendship Street" was renamed "Stalin Street."

"The rate of hatred is growing across the country," says Emil Pain, head of the Center for Analytic and Regional Research in Moscow. "It is the hatred of Ossetians against Ingush, Russians against Chechens, military people against civilians, etc."

The conflict today can be traced to Stalin's deportation of Chechens, says Galina Soldatova, an ethnopsychologist at Moscow State University. Stalin's secret police "made Ossetians settle into the homes of the people who were deported at gunpoint. In the Caucasus, to seize your neighbor's house is an awful crime with far-reaching consequences, which are still felt today."

When the deportees were allowed to return in 1956, they often found Ossetians living in their houses. Conflict surged in 1982 when an Ossetian was killed. "All of Ossetia rose to fight," says Mrs. Soldatova. "The center of Vladikavkaz [the North Ossetian capital] was practically destroyed by tanks, but it was quickly hushed up, and no paper ever wrote about it."

Further violence broke out in 1992, when Ingush took some Ossetians hostage and killed them. Ossetians fought back with weapons from Moscow.

"Ossetians are kind of strangers in the Caucasus, because they came [after other ethnic groups]. They are a link between the Caucasus and Russia," says Soldatova. "Now [Ossetians] are burying their dead.... They are now in shock. But when that passes, what will follow?"
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0908/p01s03-woeu.html?ref=aol


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Isis
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From: Brisbane, Australia
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posted September 08, 2004 02:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Isis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No reason to be defensive or nasty about it QOS...I was merely trying to clarify something you said about them in another thread, and put it into the context of this event, to see how it relates now.

About patronizing and being "a tad confused", well I don't see as where I was being patronizing (unless asking someone to clarify their position is "patronizing"), and as for being confused, I mean where does that come from? And you talk about people taking things a tad bit too seriously...yet you open your response to me with, "please do not patronize me with lectures..." when all that was necessary was to clarify your position (which you later did, after all the defensive fluff)...

Anywho, if I was patronizing, rest assured that was not my intent.

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Harpyr
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posted September 12, 2004 12:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Published on Sunday, September 12, 2004 by the Sunday Herald (Scotland)
US Neo-Cons: Kremlin is ‘Morally’ to Blame for the School Massacre
by Neil Mackay

WHY would a group of leading American neo-conservatives, dedicated to fighting Islamic terror, have climbed into bed with Chechen rebels linked to al-Qaeda? The American Committee for Peace in Chechnya (ACPC), which includes Pentagon supremo Richard Perle, says the conflict between Russia and Chechnya is about Chechen nationalism, not terrorism.

The ACPC savaged Russia for the atrocities its forces have committed in the Caucuses, said President Vladimir Putin was "ridiculous", claimed Russia was more "morally" to blame for the bloodshed than Chechen separatists and played down links between al-Qaeda and the "Chechen resistance".

The ACPC's support for the Chechen cause seems bizarre, as many of its members are among the most outspoken US policymakers who have made it clear that Islamist terror must be wiped out. But the organisation has tried to broker peace talks between Russia and Chechen separatists.

The ACPC includes many leaders of the neo-conservative think-tank, Project for the New American Century (PNAC), which advocates American domination of the world.

ACPC members who are also in the pro-Israeli PNAC include Elliott Abrams, head of Middle East affairs at the National Security Council; Elliot Cohen of the Pentagon's Defence Policy Board; Frank Gaffney, president of the conservative Centre for Security Policy; Robert Kagan and William Kristol of The Weekly Standard, the house journal of Washington neo-cons, and former CIA director James Woolsey. Former Reagan defence secretary Caspar Weinberger is also in the ACPC.

ACPC executive director Glen Howard said the continuation of the "brutalising tactics" of Russian forces would only lead to "the resistance employing more brutal tactics" like the assault on School Number One in Beslan. He claimed one of the so-called "Black Widows" decided to become a suicide bomber after being forced to watch Russian troops "boil her three-year-old child alive".

"This is a very brutal war," he said. "There have been knocks in the night, people have disappeared. It's an endless cycle of violence in which everyone has lost their sanity. It is not surprising the Chechens have resorted to the same level of violence."

Howard said Putin comparing Osama bin Laden to the leaders of the Chechen resistance was "ridiculous". Moscow has put a $10 million bounty on the heads of two Chechen leaders - the extremist and al-Qaeda connected commander Shamil Basayev, and the more moderate, one-time democratically elected Chechen President Aslan Maskhadov.

Basayev, according to the Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov, directed the hostage-taking raid in Beslan. As a young Islamist extremist Basayev was trained in Jihadist tactics by fundamentalists in Afghanistan. Many Chechens have fought in Afghanistan and many fundamentalist Arabs have fought in Chechnya.

The nurturing of Chechen fighters against Russia recalls America's support for the Mujahideen in Afghanistan - an act that went on to spawn al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

"What would have happened if Bosnia had been ignored five years ago by the rest of the world in the way Chechnya has been ignored?" asked Howard. "They might have taken to taking over schools as well.

"Everyone is ignoring the nationalist aspirations of the Chechens. This is not about terrorism but about ethnic nationalism." Howard said Russia was more "morally culpable" than Chechen fighters because of the atrocities its forces have committed.

Howard said hardliners like Richard Perle were backing Chechnya as they "understood what it feels like to be under the Russian yolk". Some critics believe the support for the Chechens may be a cold war hangover or part of a policy to keep Russia weak through bloodletting in the Caucuses.

"The al-Qaeda link [to the Chechen conflict] is overstated," said Howard. "Russia plays that up to show that it is part of the war on terror. There are some Arabs there but only a handful - this is a 400-year national struggle between the Russians and the Chechens."

According to Howard, due to the vast energy resources in the Caucuses, the West, which is heavily dependent on foreign energy, has strategic interests in the area to which it cannot afford to turn a blind eye.

Howard said Russia should be told by the West to talk to Chechen leaders to bring about peace. He claimed there was also a "moral case" to invoke sanctions against Russia for its activities in Chechnya, but added that any such attempt would be "totally unrealistic".

© 2004 newsquest (sunday herald) limited

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