posted October 07, 2004 09:06 AM              

It's not that I think service is all that important when it comes to electing presidents or congressmen. There are many good men who did not serve in the military. I also feel that it is time we stop dragging Viet Nam into every election campaign.

For the record, simply because Kerry mentioned during the Democratic National Convention that he served in Viet Nam Bush and all his people felt they should discredit that service and it was okay to do that because after all, Kerry said he served. So Bush attacked John Kerry's Viet Nam service and all the conservative talk show and news hosts relished in that with delight as did Bush's supporters. They even got a front group who served with Kerry ( who were actually ticked off that he came back from the war and protested against it) to say he was a lousy leader. And the Republicans rejoiced. All the questions regarding Kerry's service made the news and the Republicans rejoiced. Then the press, along with the Democratic election committee said "Okay, lets see Bush's service record." Because they had asked him this before and he didn't feel he had to prove anything about his National Guard duty. But it's only natural for everyone to want to know Bush's credentials for feeling he was in the place to attack the service record of others. Because even though John McCain is also a Republican and a POW who suffered horribly in the Viet Nam war, Mr. Bush attacked his Viet Nam war record as well a while back. Then all of a sudden it wasn't as much fun for the Republicans and the conservative talk show hosts. They stopped rejoicing. They got angry about that and all of a sudden they felt the issue of service should be dropped. Incidently the Associated Press still has a lawsuit against Bush to get him to come forward with credible papers regarding his service ( or lack of it ) in the National Guard during Viet Nam. Bush still hasn't come forward with any credible proof he actually served.

It's just the hypocrisy of it all that bothers me. Because it is hypocrisy when people go around doing this kind of thing as if they were better than the person they attack and you find out....none of them served during the Viet Nam war. Yet they are questioning a man who won medals and purple hearts in Viet Nam. Because correct me if I am wrong, but I think that if Kerry was even on a Swift Boat in the Mekong Delta he was a hell of a lot closer to the war than Bush was on a National Guard base in Texas and Alabama. Forget that some disgruntled guys who served with him didn't like him or didn't think he was a good leader. He at least showed up for duty. In fact, though his father had pull too ( his dad was an ambassador at the time) Kerry enlisted for the Viet Nam war.

So here's the list of who served and who didn't just for the hypocrisy of the whole useless issue that is designed to take our minds off of all the really important issues that Bush doesn't want to talk about.

A case could be made that this will be the last election in which military service in Vietnam has any political currency. For the record, it's worth noting who really served among the heavyweights in each of the major political parties. There are some surprises here. Be sure to read to the end where the TV pundits who jabber about military service have their military credentials exposed. The hypocrisy is staggering.

Democrats

Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.
Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.
Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.
Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.
Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, WWII.
John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V Purple Hearts.
John Edwards: did not serve.
Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.
Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam.
Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-1953.
Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.
Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.
Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.
Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Stars, and Soldier's Medal.
Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit.
Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.
Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star with Combat V.
Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.
Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57
Chuck Robb: Vietnam
Howell Heflin: Silver Star
George McGovern: Bomber pilot, many missions. ! Silver Star & DFC during WWII.
Bill Clinton: Avoided service with student deferments. Entered draft but received 311.
Jimmy Carter: Annapolis grad. Seven years in the Navy.
Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953
John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18 Clusters.
Tom Lantos: Said to have served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg.
Wesley Clark: U.S. Army, 1966-2000, West Point, Vietnam, Purple Heart, Silver Star. Retired 4-star general.
John Dingell: WWII vet
John Conyers: Army 1950-57, Korea

Republicans

Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
Tom Delay: did not serve.
House Whip Roy Blunt: did not serve.
Bill Frist: did not serve.
Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
George Pataki: did not serve.
Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
Rick Santorum: did not serve.
Trent Lott: did not serve.
Dick Cheney: did not serve. Had "other priorities." Several deferments, the last for wife's pregnancy.
John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.
Jeb Bush: did not serve.
Karl Rove: did not serve.
Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked Max Cleland's patriotism.
Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
Vin Weber: did not serve.
Richard Perle: did not serve.
Douglas Feith: did not serve.
Eliot Abrams: did not serve.
Richard Shelby: did not serve.
Jon Kyl: did not serve.
Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
Christopher Cox: did not serve.
Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
Donald Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as aviator and flight instructor.
George W. Bush: six-year Nat'l Guard commitment (in four years); questions about his service remain.
Ronald Reagan: made war propaganda movies.
Gerald Ford: Navy, WWII
Phil Gramm: did not serve.
John McCain: Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of ! Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.
Bob Dole: Army officer WWII.
Chuck Hagel: two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam.
Duke Cunningham: nominated for Medal of Honor, Navy Cross, Silver Stars, Air Medals, Purple Hearts.
Jeff Sessions: Army Reserves, 1973-1986
JC Watts: did not serve.
Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.
G.H.W. Bush: Pilot in WWII. Shot down by the Japanese.
Tom Ridge: Bronze Star for Valor in Vietnam.
Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
Clarence Thomas: did not serve

Pundits & Preachers
Sean Hannity: did not serve.
Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.')
Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.
Michael Savage: did not serve.
George Will: did not serve.
Chris Matthews: did not serve.
Paul Gigot: did not serve.
Bill Bennett: did not serve.
Pat Buchanan: did not serve.
Bill Kristol: did not serve.
Kenneth Starr: did not serve.
Michael Medved: did not serve.

posted October 07, 2004 01:37 PM              

Let's not forget...

Name: Rev. Jerry Falwell
Born: 1933
Employer: Thomas Road Baptist Church
Conflict Avoided: Korea, Peacetime Draft
Notes: Jerry could probably have served in Korea - other kids his age did. He certainly could have been drafted into the peacetime Army. He called the members of his '70's cult the Moral Majority "soldiers of morality." For all his loathing of communism, it's a pity he didn't get to kill a few when he was young.

posted October 08, 2004 01:32 AM            

That's what I'm talking about.

Any opportunity to jib, jab, poke, etc...

posted October 08, 2004 01:51 AM              

actually 1 of my very 1st questions here was along this very same topic concerning jwhop...
i got the impression he enjoyed such rhetorical gymnastics.....

but if i'm gone overboard now let me know, i will leave.....
(but first would sum1 tell me where this "other" lindagoodman forum is where jwhop also posts?)

posted October 08, 2004 04:32 AM              

Seems we agree on something at last, Isis.

Haven't I said a million times that politics is crap? Not the running of government; not that at all. Polistics, in the modern sense. Politics as it exists today. "Politics" is a dirty word. It's obvious that "politics" has little to do with getting anything positive and productive accomplished these days.

What if there were no "political" "parties"? What if all the candidates were just people who actually wanted to do some good for their country? What if they didn't have to follow a "party line"? What if there was no "other side" to engage in mud-slinging contests with? "Parties" take the focus off the issues and puts it on your affiliation with a silly fraternal organization

As far as this forum and its ill effect... I simply wonder: who started the reactionary chain of "attitude" to begin with?

As far as one person's "side" of things around here being all factual: Those "facts" seem to come from a very narrow range of sources.

And I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't come to Lindaland for "facts"; I can get those anywhere. I come here for new ideas and perspectives. I want to hear other spiritually-minded people's original thoughts. I want to partake in a living, breathing, ongoing discussion, not rehash givens or reprint seven thousand news articles. Sharing is one thing; turning this forum into a second outlet for certain journalists to spread their word is quite another.

But most importantly of all, Juniper said it best:

To have a friend, one must be a friend.

Thanks, Juniper. I love your clarity.

And by the way, Petron, don't go anywhere. Stand up for yourself! Never back down, never submit your unique and individual God-given will to please the masses.

posted October 08, 2004 04:34 AM              

Rather it is just good natured jibes about it or serious discussion it's important to hear BOTH sides of things.

Isis, I think that you are taking all of this waaaaay too personally for yourself and Jwhop. Lighten up!

Jwhop and those posting here who support Bush only present one side of the story - that which puts Bush in a good light and Kerry in a bad light. Then you guys get upset when someone who supports Kerry does the same thing. So it seems to me that the thing that is upsetting you guys is that you only want Bush's side of things presented here. I have noticed that about all Bush supporters not only here but in "real time" life as well. That is the way that Bush is as well. His whole administration has gone out of it's way to see that Iraq, or anything else is only presented to the American public and the world as they see it and no one should disagree or question it. So he has you guys brainwashed into thinking the same way. And that is NOT a democracy. That is a totalitarian government.

About half of the people in this country do not like GW Bush or his policies. They don't like the dictator way he has run this country. They don't like the way he thinks he is above criticism. ALL U.S. Presidents have been criticized. It goes with the territory. Bush is not above criticism. No one is. Bush was not elected by the popular vote. In fact, he was the only U.S. President that was not elected at all but instead appointed to the office by the Supreme Court.

The truth is he has run a very dirty campaign designed to discredit the character of his opponent and distract the American people from the real issues. Then he gets upset when that is questioned. Same as you guys do. If Bush were running his campaign based on just the issues he would be in big trouble and he knows that.

Kerry is not a perfect man. Neither is Bush. Neither is anyone. Stop presenting Bush as if he were God and a perfect man and you won't have people like us pointing out to you that he isn't. I bet none of you even took the time to find out anything at all about John Kerry and what he really thinks and feels on the issues. All you do is repeat the mantras that Bush gives you concerning John Kerry. That's all I have read here and hear from Bush supporters. The same mantras he repeats. Sounds like brainwashed robots. Try thinking outside the box and try thinking for yourself for a change.

Bush even has you guys convinced that a man who changes his position or his thinking in light of new evidence that he finds credible that shows him he was wrong, and a man who is willing to admit he made mistakes is a "flip flopper." I hear you guys all repeating that mantra. But psychology teaches us that what John Kerry does in that respect is the way it should be if we want to grow as persons. To hold the same positions and thoughts in light of evidence to the contrary is not only just being stubborn and convinced you are always right, it is not dealing in reality very well. It can be very dangerous when a leader of a nation thinks that way.

posted October 08, 2004 10:12 AM              

it will be a sad sad day if you decide to leave. your intelligent and thoughtful posts are necessary here.

there's no reason whatsoever to leave just because you have the guts to state what you believe in. don't let any negative energy here get the better of you.

posted October 08, 2004 12:29 PM            

LS - I believe I said, "to be sure, antagonization is going on all around".

Petron - I'm not singling anyone out.

Paras - Politics is a part of life. It doesn't have to degenerate.

Mirandee - I'm not taking anything personally. This has nothing to do with anything that was said to me, so there's not really anything to take personally. My point has as much to do behavior in here as it does with what I'm seeing in general, everywhere (both offline and online). It's just frustrating and annoying.

I can't believe it, and I can't believe I'm saying it, but I think Paras is the only one who gets my point.

Petron, no need to leave, I will. I'm the one who doesn't like what's going on, since I'm the one w/ the problem, I will leave.

Fight the good fight Jwhop. Pid, I regret I never got the chance to know you better. All the best w/ your new honey. Sun Scorpion - where are you? I've missed you in chat. If you want to get in touch talk to Randall, he can forward my email. Quicksilver, you're doing a great job as mod, keep up the good work. Randall, this is a great site, thanks for protecting free speech.

posted October 08, 2004 06:50 PM              

You're absolutely right that it's going all around. I also think it's very interesting that it's predominantly the left here that gets called out for it.

If someone is going to be of the attitude, "Oh, it's just JW.. that's how he is... gotta tolerate it", then the attitude must be applied to ALL others.