posted October 21, 2004 03:56 PM              

That kinda p!ssed me off...

Sorry. Had to vent.

posted October 21, 2004 09:03 PM              

It began in the debate between Cheney and Edwards when the question came up about homosexual marriages. In his response Edwards explained his position on that and then , to make the point, he used as an example the way that Cheney and his wife have stood by their daughter and given her support. He then went on to complement Cheney and his wife for that. Cheney showed no response that indicated he was annoyed by Edwards using his family as an example and he even thanked Edwards for the complement to him and his wife.

In one of the presidential debates Kerry mentioned it and also in a complementary way. It was no secret from the American people anyway. Cheney has never hidden the fact that his daughter is a lesbian. So to complement him on that was done without any animosity at all. It is an example for the American people to follow is what they were saying.

However, since the debates the RNC, Cheney and Bush have made an issue of it in their further attempts to discredit Kerry and Edwards. They now term it "invasive." And are feigning annoyance that did not orginally exist. You know Cheney as well as I do. He is not a man who will sit by idly and let slights or things he does not like go by without speaking up on them. If he were annoyed at the time of the debate he would have said something at that time to Edwards. So it is just another RNC political ploy.

The only other mention of his daughter since the debates by either Kerry or Edwards has been Kerry response to this sudden feigning of annoyance by saying he did not mean it any sense except a complementary one and is sorry if he offended Cheney.

No one here outside of the two of you have said anything about Cheney's daughter

Which brings me to this point. Have any of you noticed that during the debates both Edwards and Kerry have said nice things to their opponents? This is one instance about Cheney's daughter. Another one is when Kerry said that Bush was a "good father." Both times both Cheney and Bush just said "thank you." Neither of them came back with a like complement and neither one of them have since that time found anything to complement Kerry or Edwards about. Just something that I noticed and I'm sure a lot of other voters have noticed too.

posted October 21, 2004 09:24 PM            

That shows coordination and intent. There was nothing accidental about it, nothing whatsoever.

Add to that Edwards wife's comment that the Cheney's must be ashamed of their lesbian daughter and you begin to see a viscous coordinated attack....an not the kind and gentle concern and caring the Kerry campaign tried to foist off on voters.

posted October 21, 2004 09:30 PM              

I stated they both said something about it in my post. Read it again and this time with comprehension.

Those are intelligent men who work for the DNC. They had an explanation. So what? That is just your suspicious mind, jwhop. That is how you intrepret the events.

posted October 21, 2004 10:07 PM            

quote:

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Add to that Edwards wife's comment that the Cheney's must be ashamed of their lesbian daughter and you begin to see a viscous coordinated attack....an not the kind and gentle concern and caring the Kerry campaign tried to foist off on voters.

---

Then you said this:

quote:

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Kerry made no such comment about Cheney being ashamed of his daughter, jwhop. That is another out and out lie.

---

Who needs to learn to read with comprehension Mirandee?

posted October 22, 2004 01:38 AM            

Mirandee didn't and couldn't because I didn't.

posted October 22, 2004 01:48 AM            

It's also Bush's fault because Bush didn't change the procedures the Clintonistas put in place when Hillary was running the vaccine programs from the White House.

He certainly should have known better, now shouldn't he?

It's also Bush's fault because Bush isn't psychic and didn't know that British company was going to contaminate the years allotment of vaccine we get from them.

There you have it miss_apple, whatever happens, anywhere in the world, Bush did it.

posted October 22, 2004 01:56 AM              

Blaming her is the same as saying that anyone who supports a national health plan is responsible for the flu vaccine shortage. Just as blaming Kerry for protesting the war and the POW's getting it thrown in their faces is the same as blaming all the multitudes of American citizens who protested the war for the Vietcong using it against the POW's. And I bet you do blame them all.

posted October 22, 2004 02:12 AM            

No, I didn't serve in Vietnam. I didn't have to serve anywhere. I was married, going to college AND serving in the California Army National Guard. But I could have been one of the phonies Kerry recruited to give lying testimony about their atrocities in Vietnam because I was as close to Vietnam during my Guard service as most of the liars Kerry told to lie ever got....the one's who actually ever did serve anywhere that is.

Where did you serve?

Hillary is not being blamed because she attempted to nationalize the entire health care sector of the economy.

posted October 22, 2004 02:15 AM              

Babies, people with immune deficiencies, and the elderly.

He's no spring chicken either

I don't see why his being Vice President comes before being human. The flu kills aprox. 47,000 people in the US every year.

A severe bout of the flu could cost him his life.

posted October 22, 2004 01:24 PM              

Elenore has a point and that was the point I was trying to make. Voters will see it as Cheney thinking he is more important than the public. More important than the elderly and small children in this country. Especially after what Bush said in the debate as Elenore pointed out. Which is also fine with me if it loses them votes.

Boy, jwhop, Hilliary sure has a lot of power in your mind. I am beginning to think that you fear Hilliary more than the terrorists. She has a lot of power especially in a majority Republican Congress. "Took Specific" action is not the same as getting legislation passed. Hilliary, you go girl, if you have the power to get any kind of drug legislation passed in a majority Republican Congress and in spite of the powerful lobbyist the drug companies have who were lining the pockets of your fellow Congressmen. To that I would have to say that if Hillary managed that she is one hell of a woman.

If anything is to blame for the shortage it is outsourcing. Why is the U.S. dependent on JUST ONE drug company in England for our flu vaccine supply? That drug company was known to have problems and the FDA sited it for violations and then just assumed things would be fixed. They did not inspect it after that. Great Britain did not notify the FDA when they found the contamination and blocked the export of the drugs until some time after. Even when they got the information from Great Britain the FDA did not immediately act on it. Also the big drug companies in the U.S. can't make enough money off of flu vaccine because it has to be made new every year and any excess cannot be saved but has to be thrown out. Which is another reason why we are dependent on one drug company in England to make our flu vaccine. The big drug companies in the U.S. are more concerned with profit than the health of the American public. If they did not lobby against smaller drug companies to prevent them from competing and introducing new drugs we might not have a shortage of the flu vaccine they don't want to produce because it isn't profitable enough for them.

You are twisting things I say and putting words in my mouth that I didn't say, jwhop. I never said Halliburton was in the drug business ( least not the legal kind ) I said Cheney is their #1 meal ticket and that they probably got the vaccine for him. And I was just making a sarcastic joke. As Foghorn Leghorn would say, "It's a joke son!" Lighten up.

Oh, you served in the National Guard like Bush. Well, nothing wrong with that but I just hope your service record is better than his. See my thread "Unfit for Service."

Jwhop, you know full well that back in the 60's and 70's there was a draft and women were not in the draft. Women did not serve in the military at that time unless they were nurses. Besides that, when the war started I was just a teenager in High School. It lasted so long that by the time it ended I had gotten married and subsequently during the course of the years the war raged on, I had three children.

posted October 22, 2004 03:10 PM              

quote:

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...not going to be good for their campaign because a lot of voters will not like that

---

I know. That's what makes me so upset. I'm ashamed of the Liberals over this.

posted October 22, 2004 05:02 PM            

Vaccine production is not outsourced Mirandee. Hillary made it unprofitable for American manufacturers to produce vaccines and producers left the business. All of our flu vaccine does not come from Britain, there are one or possibly two still left in the US. The FDA did not sit on the information the British stocks were pulled by the British government due to contamination.

Exactly what action would you have taken Mirandee....at that very late date? I know you have absolutely no answer to that nor does Kerry, hence the finger pointing at Bush...now isn't that a hell of a lot easier? Takes the heat off Hillary for her short sighted Marxist grab of the vaccine programs too. Except it isn't working either.

You think Hillary is feared. Far from it Mirandee and if one day Hillary decides to run for President, there are going to be a lot of questions, questions about obstruction of justice, bribery, fraud, libel and slander, misappropriation of those 900 confidential FBI files and perjury in front of a Congressional committee investigating WhiteWater and Castle Grande. Hope you don't think that's forgotten or that an answer from Hillary that it's old news is going to suffice.

If there's personal corruption, those on the left always know how to find it, usually because they're involved in it, aiding and abetting it or condoning it.

I'm sorry about your friends death in Vietnam. I'll also sorry for the 58,000 Americans who lost their lives there, some of them because John Kerry and his antiwar protests and lying little group helped prolong both the war...causing more casualties and the lengthening the captivity of our POW's. The very best authority that can be had on that subject is the commanding general of North Vietnam forces who said if it hadn't been for the war protesters sapping the strength out of America, North Vietnam would have surrendered and sued for peace. Congratulations Mirandee, you seem to have played your part in that too.

The fact John Kerry is always on the side of America's enemies is the primary reason he isn't going to be elected.

posted October 22, 2004 10:26 PM              

Democracy was the victory won over Vietnam. And possibly 58,000 more names didn't have to be added to that wall in Wash. D.C. 58,000 more sons and husbands were returned home. And 58,000 more did not have to go to Vietnam. In sparing lives both John Kerry and I and all the millions of people who protested against that war did our job well.

I do not know that the head of North Vietnam said that. But if he did it was probably a lie. He never would have negotiated for peace because he passed up all the opportunites that were presented to him at the time to do so.

Stop condemning John Kerry for following his conscience because it is not the same as your conscience. He served. You didn't. Bush didn't. He risked his life. You didn't. Bush didn't. That was following your conscience and it is okay. John Kerry followed his conscience based on first hand knowledge. You didn't have that first hand knowledge. You never saw what was going on in Vietnam first hand. You never faced death or experienced the fear. Neither did Bush so who are you to judge John Kerry's conscience or mine for that matter? Did you read that post about the impassioned article from a Vietnam vet that I posted and what he said about that? When you and Bush attack ANY Vietnam vet they see that as going to war against them. They see that as attacking them too. Stop rubbing salt in their wounds. McCain told Bush he should be ashamed of himself for doing that. So should you.

Your smear campaign is backfiring on you and Bush jwhop. The American people are not stupid. We can easily see what is going on here. The smear campaign against Kerry is what is going to lose this election for Bush.

In fact, Sinclair Broadcasting is not showing that smear film tonight (Friday). So democracy won another round.

Tonight, millions of television viewers, many of them in heavily contested swing-voter states, will be able to switch their sets to “A POW Story: Politics, Pressure and the Media,” a Sinclair Broadcast Group program that purports to examine the influence of documentaries and other media on the elections.

The "news special" represents a compromise by Sinclair, after a firestorm of protest sidelined the company's earlier plan to air “Stolen Honor: Wounds That Never Heal,” an “aggressively anti-Kerry documentary” over its 62 local stations.

But it remains to be seen whether Sinclair’s final program, which will contain scenes from "Stolen Honor," will be any less partisan. Questions linger as to why Sinclair -- a company that was granted free access to our public airwaves -- would think it could get away with such a crass, last-ditch effort to influence the outcome of a national election.

Americans are still fighting for democracy in this country and never so much as they have had to do under the Bush regime. We will fight for the Constitution and our guaranteed rights under that constitution. Because there is no other free nation on earth that has a constitution like ours which is the only thing that protects us from having a dictator. Americans have a voice in our democracy. The President is only there to serve us. So is Congress and the House. We have the power to put them in the office and we have the power to take them out.

Vietnam proved to the world that American people have power to change the decisions of even the President. All we have to do is stand together and speak out in numbers and have our voice heard. Sinclair Broadcasting found that out and now we direct our attention to Michael Powell at the FCC. He found it out once this year during the media take over attempt and he is going to find it out again. We are going to get fairness in broadcasting.

posted October 22, 2004 11:01 PM            

Your gaps in knowledge on subjects you seem to have an interest in amaze me Mirandee. When coupled with the things you think you know, that aren't even true, you become one of those facts challenged leftists that can be lead around by any argument that "sounds" good to you.

This is the record of what General Giap, the Commander of the Communist North Vietnamese military had to say about the American war protests.

Immediately below that are the comments about the antiwar crowd made by his second in command.

You, like John Kerry seem to have the very same view as one of Americas enemies. You should have no questions that when you line up with Americas enemies, you're going to draw fire. Neither should John Kerry.

Saturday, May 1, 2004 10:57 a.m. EDT
Gen. Giap Thanks Kerry & Co. for Anti-war Protests

Celebrating the 29th anniversary of the fall of Saigon, the North Vietnamese general who led his forces to victory said Friday he was grateful to leaders of the U.S. anti-war movement, one of whom was presidential candidate John Kerry.

"I would like to thank them," said Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, now 93, without mentioning Kerry by name. "Any forces that wish to impose their will on other nations will surely fail," he added.

Reuters, which first reported Giap's comments, suggested that the former enemy general was mindful of Kerry's role in leading some of the highest-profile anti-war protests of the entire Vietnam War.

Before the British wire service quoted Gen. Giap, it noted:

"The Vietnam War, known in Vietnam as the American War, has become a hot issue in the U.S. presidential race with Democrat John Kerry drawing attention to his service and President Bush's Republicans disparaging Kerry's later anti-war stand."

North Vietnamese Col. Bui Tin, who served under Gen. Giap on the general staff of the North Vietnamese army, received South Vietnam's unconditional surrender on April 30, 1975.

In an interview with the Wall Street Journal after his retirement, Col. Tin explicitly credited leaders of the U.S. anti-war movement, saying they were "essential to our strategy."

"Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9AM to follow the growth of the antiwar movement," Col. Tin told the Journal.

Visits to Hanoi by Kerry anti-war allies Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and others, he said, "gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses."

"We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war," the North Vietnamese military man explained.

Kerry did much the same thing in widely covered speeches such as the one he delivered to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in April 1971.

"Through dissent and protest [America] lost the ability to mobilize a will to win," Col. Tin concluded.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/1/110432.shtml

posted October 22, 2004 11:16 PM              

Do you mean shoot?

I could never shoot anyone.

One of the main reasons I don't own a gun is that IF someone were to break in, or whatever, I KNOW I would hesitate before shooting... at which time they would take my gun away from me and probably kill me.

So, as a safety precaution, I don't have guns around.

Maybe that makes me a whimp... whatever. I'm alive

posted October 23, 2004 12:21 PM              

Conscience is the higher law. It goes above the law of man. That includes the government. Maybe you should put down Newsmax and set aside your partisan biases and read some spiritual things for once. You might just learn something.

WE have to answer to God alone in the end. His law supercedes any law. Read what St. Thomas Aquinas had to say about conscience. He wrote a lot about conscience. He said that at times in order to obey your conscience you have to disobey man's laws. No matter what, be loyal to your own conscience and let no man interfere with that.

Yeah Kerry did take that oath to defend the U.S. Constitution and this country. You didn't. You could have taken that oath and gone to Vietnam. But you didn't. Instead you opted for the National Guard. Being married should not have been an excuse for a super patriot like you, jwhop. After all you ARE more patriotic than Kerry, right? There were a lot of married men in Vietnam who had families. My childhood friend that died was one of them. You could have taken that oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution and defend this country and you didn't. Just like Bush you opted for the Guard and stayed home. NO I WILL NOT SERVE OVERSEAS is the box he checked. Apparently the box you checked too. And both of you have the audacity to continue to question the honor of a man who did serve and then came home and from what he had seen over there followed his higher law, that supercedes all other laws, and protested that war. He also threw away his medals at an anti-war rally. Good for him!! A real hero. He has been fighting for the Constitution and this country ever since that time in the U.S. Congress. Now he is fighting for that Constitution against a chickenhawk President who has no regard for the U.S. Constitution and has shown that time after time. Bush is tearing down the Constitution and this country and taking the rest of the world along with him. Not out of malice as much as his stupidity and ineptitude. UNFIT TO SERVE.

I am tired of hearing your unfounded accusations aimed at Kerry's service. Tired of hearing Bush's too. It is all smoke and mirrors on his part designed to avoid talking about the issues because he is too ignorant of the issues to discuss them without them being written down for him in a speech. I noticed during the debates Kerry was writing down notes of things that Bush said that he wanted to address. While on the other hand while answering questions Bush kept looking down at his crib notes. Unlike Kerry he could not discuss the issues without notes. He is a puppet President with Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz and the rest of them pulling his strings. And then probably laughing at him behind his back for being so gullible and stupid.

As for you all you do is repeat everything that Bush says. It gets redundant after awhile. Your mind is gone. You can no longer think for yourself. Your mind is blinded by your partianship. If Hitler were a Republican you would vote for him and support him all the way through the holocaust. Making excuses for him all along the way and calling others unpatriotic who said he was a tyrant.

I don't care if I get kicked off this site for saying this because it is true. And you have called everyone else here "leftists" and "marxists" and everything else. It gets real old, jwhop. Real old.

Having said what I did about your service in the Guard you know, because I have told you before, I don't really hold that against you or Bush. You followed your conscience at the time I presume. My point is that so did Kerry, before, during and after the war. My point is if you don't want your decisions of conscience judged harshly by others then stop judging theirs. Bush should do the same thing. He has a real problem with Vietnam vets obviously. He needs to seek psychriatic help for that insecurity.