posted November 06, 2004 09:51 PM              

quote:

---

The fact of the matter is (as every reasonable person who hasn't been
hoodwinked by the pageantry of election night fraud realizes) that the
election was stolen again in full view of the American public. The
Republican owned voting machines prevailed over exit poll projections
and the will of the American people.

---

This is true. I voted early on Tues. caught an afternoon nap and then sat up all night watching the election returns. All the way through it was very close and at times Kerry was leading. Then in the wee hours of Wed. morning that suddenly and drastically changed. So drastically that at the time I got a sinking feeling that this election had been stolen again and the Republicans had somehow cheated again. It just happened all to fast and up until that point Peter Jennings on ABC kept saying we may not know for days who won. Then suddenly, bam, bam, bam, it all changed and all the votes coming in were for Bush.

Always in the past the exit polls were used faithfully by the networks and they swore to their accuracy. Then all of sudden that changed this year. ABC did not even use the exit polls saying they were inaccurate and the commentator on CNN was going on and on about how inaccurate the exit polls are.

I got an email from the Democratic National Committee today asking for comments and suggestions. One of my suggestions was that since so many Americans are feeling that this election was stolen just like in 2000 they need to investigate the election results. Especially in New Mexico, Ohio, and the swing states where Kerry lost in the wee hours of the morning. If for no other reason than voter confidence in the system they need to investigate it.

If you believe that George Bush won last nights election "fair and
square" then forget about reading this article. If you know however
that tens of thousands of people who lined up for up to four hours at
a time in Ohio and Florida to have their vote counted, were not
standing there to endorse the aggression and suicidal policies of the
current administration then read on.

The unprecedented high turnout coupled with new registrations (that
were overwhelmingly in favor of John Kerry) suggest that there was
foul play at the voting booths. As a result, consumer investigator and
activist Bev Harris (founder of Black Box Voting) "is conducting the
largest Freedom of Information action in history. On election night,
Black Box Voting blanketed the US with the first in a series of public
records requests, to obtain internal computer logs and other documents
from 3,000 individual counties and townships."

If the Bush people are so confident in their victory let them "put up
or shut up."

The fact of the matter is (as every reasonable person who hasn't been
hoodwinked by the pageantry of election night fraud realizes) that the
election was stolen again in full view of the American public. The
Republican owned voting machines prevailed over exit poll projections
and the will of the American people.

If that's not the case, then let's investigate the computer logs.
According to Lynn Landis' article "Could the AP rig the Election":
"The Associated Press (AP) will be the sole source of raw vote totals
for the major news broadcasters on Election Night.. They refused to
confirm or deny that the AP will receive direct feed from voting
machines and central vote tabulating computers across the country.
But, circumstantial evidence suggests that is exactly what will happen.

And what can be downloaded can also be uploaded. Computer experts say
that signals can travel both to and from computerized voting machines
through wireless technology, modems, and even simple electricity."
Landis just confirms what is already known about "sketchy" electronic
voting and how it invites vote tampering. Her connection between
election machinery, vote totals and the AP, however, has not
previously been made. She goes on to explain that, "AP spokespeople
would not give out information on who sits on their board, however AP
leadership appears quite conservative."

Landis continues: "Burl Osborne, chairman of the AP board of
directors, is also publisher emeritus of the conservative The Dallas
Morning News, a newspaper that endorsed George W. Bush in the last
election. Kathleen Carroll, senior vice president and executive editor
of AP, was a reporter at The Dallas Morning News before joining AP.
Carroll is also on the Associated Press Managing Editors (APME)'s
7-member executive committee. The APME "works in partnership with AP
to improve the wire service's performance," according to their
website. APME vice president, Deanna Sands, is managing editor of the
ultra conservative Omaha World Herald newspaper, whose parent company
owns the largest voting machine company in the nation, Election
Systems and Software (ES&S)."

It's a cozy relationship considering that ES&S voting machines count
50% of all the votes in the country. The second largest company,
Diebold, is also tied to the Republican Party and promised (in a
comment by Wally Diebold that got widespread attention on the
internet) to "deliver the vote" in Ohio to President Bush.

Both Wally and ES&S apparently succeeded admirably in their task of
undermining the election.

Many readers are probably wondering what happened to the "Help America
Vote Act" that was passed by Congress to avoid the problems of Florida
2000? As Landis reports in an earlier article: "What Congress really
did was to throw $2.65 billion at the states, so that they could
lavish it on a handful of private companies that are controlled by
ultra-conservative Republicans, foreigners and felons." (Diebold, ES&S
and Sequoia were among the big winners)

None of the facts related to the presidential election add up. Voter
registration went up from 105 million to 120 million. In Ohio alone it
went up a whopping 17%. Whenever registration has surged like this in
the past, it has always favored the challenger and precipitated a
change in government.

Not so, this time, and Republican pollsters are eager to convince us
that the reason for this is a renewed interest among the American
public for "moral values". Is that it or are the results simply an
indication of massive (but well calculated) voter fraud?

The exit polling was equally skewed, showing a clear victory for
Kerry. Exit polling has traditionally been a reliable way of
determining the outcome of elections. Not so in Bush-world, where vote
totals are invariably higher for Bush in the contentious areas that
ultimately decide the election.

Give strategist Karl Rove his due; he knew what had to be done and did
it. The rest, of course, has been papered over by the pollsters, pimps
and pundits in American press corps.

Do we need to remind ourselves that representative government can only
be established by the power of the vote? It is the electoral process
that confers legitimacy on government. Without a popular mandate state
power can only be vindicated through force of arms.

Last night American democracy was skillfully subverted and replaced
with a mutant form of corporatism that operates independent of the
will of the people. It's impossible to know what the long term affects
of this will be, but it is a development that should greatly concern
us all.
http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/11/con04482.html
___

The Case For Fraud

November 3 2004
Counterbias.com
by Joseph Cannon

Ignore the rightist snickers. Ignore those who would straightjacket
permissible thought. We have a right to ask difficult questions.

And the question of the moment concerns exit polls and electronic voting.

Some have criticized my pessimistic attitude toward this election, but
I always heeded the warnings sounded by Bev Harris and others
regarding computerized voting. If Kerry did not win handily, he could
not win at all. A truly lopsided vote would have been impossible to
hide, because oversized gaps between polls and election night counts
would prove too suspicious.

Although the vote was tight, such gaps nevertheless exists. And
although they are not massive, the pattern gives us every right to
voice our suspicions.

Remember when networks used to trumpet the accuracy of exit polling?
Last night, I saw on-air talking heads (especially on CNN) loudly
deride these same exit polls as untrustworthy.

Perhaps the methodology has become sloppy. Perhaps respondents have
learned to enjoy fibbing to pollsters. Or perhaps something in our
current vote-tabulation system is fishier than an all-you-can-eat
sushi bar.

Before proceeding, recall the commonly-heard axiom that Democrats tend
to vote late, while Republicans tend to vote early. Many challenge
that belief. Still, keep the notion in mind.

Exit polls published yesterday afternoon (by Slate and a number of
blogs) gave this portrait of certain key results:

OHIO: Kerry 50, Bush 49. FLORIDA: Kerry 50, Bush 49. NEW MEXICO: Kerry
51, Bush 48.

At times, the poll data was even more favorable to Kerry in these
three key states. See, for example, this screen capture of CNN data in
Ohio. No exit poll showed a Bush lead in any of these states.

Here are grounds for suspicion. Electronic voting machines figured
heavily in the final tabulation of the results in Ohio, Florida, and
New Mexico. Moreover, in all three, paper audit trails do not exist.

These states therefore offered the best, safest opportunity for
manipulation of the final count.

Question 1: Even if we grant the potential inaccuracy of exit polls,
how likely is it that in all three cases the inaccuracy would show a
"non-existent" Democratic advantage? Why doesn't the discrepancy ever
work in the other direction?

Question 2: Why did problems afflict exit polling in three swing
states that have widespread computerized voting with no paper trails?

In other states, the exit polling matched the final results rather
well. In Nevada, Illinois, and New Hampshire, computer votes do have
paper trails -- and in those instances, the exit polls tracked the
final totals.

To recap: In three states with no paper trails, we have exit
poll/final tally disagreement. In three states with paper trails, we
have exit poll/final tally congruence.

Coincidence?

Let's return to the notion that Republicans vote earlier than
Democrats. Many dispute that bit of folk wisdom. Even so, is it likely
that the people waiting four, five or more hours in long lines, well
into the cold of the night, underwent this endurance test to demand
more of the same? Shouldn't the polls have showed Kerry's lead
expanding as the night went on, instead of evaporating?

Intriguingly, CNN's exit poll results underwent a mysterious revision
not explained by an increased number of respondents.

Black Box Voting plans to file the world's largest FOIA request to
uncover the internals of the compu-vote. Don't presume that such an
inquest will come up goose eggs:

Such a request filed in King County, Washington on Sept. 15, following
the primary election six weeks ago, uncovered an internal audit log
containing a three-hour deletion on election night; "trouble slips"
revealing suspicious modem activity; and profound problems with
security, including accidental disclosure of critically sensitive
remote access information to poll workers, office personnel, and even,
in a shocking blunder, to Black Box Voting activists.
Today's Boston Globe expands on some of the points I've made here:

Although some of John F. Kerry's leads in the state exit polls
narrowed during the course of the day yesterday, there was a
significant discrepancy between the actual vote total and the polling
numbers, particularly in two states believed to be keys to the outcome.

While the exit data had Kerry winning Florida and Ohio by a narrow
margin, the actual tabulated vote late last night had Bush carrying
Florida by about five points and winning Ohio by two. In addition, a
projected Kerry win of about five points in Wisconsin turned into a
very tight contest, and what was projected as a close race in North
Carolina turned into a double-digit win for Bush.
Again: Note the pattern. Why do the exit polls always go wrong in the
same way? Pundits who assail these polls never address this question.

Logic tells us that about half the exit polls would show "false
positives" for the Republican side. But in the past two presidential
elections, they have almost always (should I strike out the word
"almost"?) delivered "false positives" for Democrats only.

The simplest explanation: The Democratic "false positives" are not, in
fact, false. The computerized tally is false.

Remember: If malign parties have tampered with the electronic result,
then our first, best -- and perhaps only -- indication of fraud will
be a conflict between the exit poll data and the "official" results.

As for what to do about it: May I at least suggest a visit to www.blackboxvoting.org?

Joseph Cannon is a writer and graphic designer in Los Angeles,
California. He runs the Cannonfire weblog.
http://www.counterbias.com/152.html

______

Voting without auditing. (Are we insane?)

SEATTLE, WASHINGTON Nov 3 2004 -- Did the voting machines trump exit
polls? There's a way to find out.

Black Box Voting (.ORG) is conducting the largest Freedom of
Information action in history. At 8:30 p.m. Election Night, Black Box
Voting blanketed the U.S. with the first in a series of public records
requests, to obtain internal computer logs and other documents from
3,000 individual counties and townships. Networks called the election
before anyone bothered to perform even the most rudimentary audit.

America: We have permission to say No to unaudited voting. It is our
right.

Among the first requests sent to counties (with all kinds of voting
systems -- optical scan, touch-screen, and punch card) is a formal
records request for internal audit logs, polling place results slips,
modem transmission logs, and computer trouble slips.

An earlier FOIA is more sensitive, and has not been disclosed here. We
will notify you as soon as we can go public with it.

Such a request filed in King County, Washington on Sept. 15, following
the primary election six weeks ago, uncovered an internal audit log
containing a three-hour deletion on election night; "trouble slips"
revealing suspicious modem activity; and profound problems with
security, including accidental disclosure of critically sensitive
remote access information to poll workers, office personnel, and even,
in a shocking blunder, to Black Box Voting activists.

Black Box Voting is a nonpartisan, nonprofit consumer protection group
for elections. You may view the first volley of public records
requests here: Freedom of Information requests here

Responses from public officials will be posted in the forum, is
organized by state and county, so that any news organization or
citizens group has access to the information. Black Box Voting will
assist in analysis, by providing expertise in evaluating the records.
Watch for the records online; Black Box Voting will be posting the
results as they come in. And by the way, these are not free. The more
donations we get, the more FOIAs we are empowered to do. Time's a'wasting.

We look forward to seeing you participate in this process. Join us in
evaluating the previously undisclosed inside information about how our
voting system works.
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/
_____

Central Tabulating Machines Connected to Modems

New Info proves that Central Tabulating Computers have modems
connected and are open to manipulation. ie- all this stuff about vote
challengers is just a diversion, because one person can change the
state total from their home computer. Take the day off of work to help
save our country.

Yeah sure conspiracy nuts- they can't steal it- wrong. We now have
evidence that certainly looks like altering a computerized voting
system during a real election, and it happened just six weeks ago.

Concerned citizens around the country need to get off their duffs and
do something to save our country. Namely go down to their polling
places and ask that the modems be disconnected. Take a zoom camera and
take pictures for evidence.

Bev Harris- THE authority on securing the vote

=============

MONDAY Nov 1 2004: New information indicates that hackers may be
targeting the central computers counting our votes tomorrow. All
county elections officials who use modems to transfer votes from
polling places to the central vote-counting server should disconnect
the modems now.

There is no down side to removing the modems. Simply drive the vote
cartridges from each polling place in to the central vote-counting
location by car, instead of transmitting by modem. "Turning off" the
modems may not be sufficient. Disconnect the central vote counting
server from all modems, INCLUDING PHONE LINES, not just Internet.

In a very large county, this will add at most one hour to the
vote-counting time, while offering significant protection from outside
intrusion.

It appears that such an attack may already have taken place, in a
primary election 6 weeks ago in King County, Washington -- a large
jurisdiction with over one million registered voters. Documents,
including internal audit logs for the central vote-counting computer,
along with modem "trouble slips" consistent with hacker activity, show
that the system may have been hacked on Sept. 14, 2004. Three hours is
now missing from the vote-counting computer's "audit log," an
automatically generated record, similar to the black box in an
airplane, which registers certain kinds of events.

COMPUTER FOLKS:

Here are the details about remote access vulnerability through the
modem connecting polling place voting machines with the central
vote-counting server in each county elections office. This applies
specifically to all Diebold systems (1,000 counties and townships),
and may also apply to other vendors. The prudent course of action is
to disconnect all modems, since the downside is small and the danger
is significant.

The central servers are installed on unpatched, open Windows computers
and use RAS (Remote Access Server) to connect to the voting machines
through telephone lines. Since RAS is not adequately protected, anyone
in the world, even terrorists, who can figure out the server's phone
number can change vote totals without being detected by observers.

The passwords in many locations are easily guessed, and the access
phone numbers can be learned through social engineering or war dialing.

ELECTION OFFICIALS:

The only way to protect tomorrow's election from this type of attack
is to disconnect the servers from the modems now. Under some
configurations, attacks by remote access are possible even if the
modem appears to be turned off. The modem lines should be physically
disconnected.

We obtained these documents through a public records request. The
video was taken at a press conference held by the King County
elections chief Friday Oct 29.

The audit log is a computer-generated automatic record similar to the
"black box" in an airplane, that automatically records access to the
Diebold GEMS central tabulator (unless, of course, you go into it in
the clandestine way we demonstrated on September 22 in Washington DC
at the National Press club.)

The central tabulator audit log is an FEC-required security feature.
The kinds of things it detects are the kinds of things you might see
if someone was tampering with the votes: Opening the vote file,
previewing and/or printing interim results, altering candidate
definitions (a method that can be used to flip votes).

Three hours is missing altogether from the Sept. 14 Washington State
primary held six weeks ago.

The audit log is 168 pages long and spans 120 days, and the 3 hours
just happen to be missing during the most critical three hours on
election night.

Election officials: Disconnect those modems NOW. If you don't: You
gotta be replaced.
Reporters: Some election officials will lie to you. Show your kids
what bravery looks like. Be courageous. Report the truth.
Citizens: Please help us by joining the Cleanup Crew. For now, e-mail
crew@blackboxvoting.org to join, since our signup form has been taken out.
Candidates: Make a statement. Do not concede on Election Night. Wait
until audits and records can be examined. Note that most voting
machine problems will be found between Nov. 3-12, during the canvass,
and a few weeks later, when public records requests are obtained.

More from Bev here, including a video they made of the chimp pushing
some buttons to start a script to steal the vote.
http://blackboxvoting.org/

===========

Anonymous:

It's not just about the Presidential race, but the Bush and the
neocons need to steal the House and Senate races too, or else they'll
be facing trial and Bush/Cheney impeachment. They know it- that's why
they're going to steal it- unless we stop them.

Call all of your friends and family tonight, get organized to hit as
many polling places as possible. Maybe you could each need to pick a
location and keep an eye on them all day... got an ipod and/or
boombox? Bring some inspirational music to make it a festive occasion
http://www.benfrank.net/nuke/Free_Peace_mp3s.html

(must get MOSH, MLK, Eddie Vedder)

Take the Day off Work

Go down to your local polling places (ie google "toledo polling
locations") and ask that the modems be disconnected. Bring a camera
and take pictures for evidence. The phone lines need to be unhooked,
anything less is unacceptable. We need to demand the the 'memory
cards' are driven to the central tabulator, and we need you to watch
them box the memory cards, seal the boxes, follow their car as they
drive it to the next location, where you can ensure the seals are
intact and the number of boxes is unchanged.

If we want to reclaim our country, it's going to be up to regular
people like you and me to demand a secure system tomorrow. Think about
it, if they steal this one, after four more years of Bush, will we
ever have an honest election again?

by : Bev Harris
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=4116

___

movie at http://www.votergate.tv/
votergate.tv Documentary

The producers of this film have created a thirty minute documentary on
the vulnerabilities of electronic voting machines and are making this
film available as a free educational public service in time for the
presidential election. For more information, go to www.votergate.tv.

What This Film Achieves

This film is an investigative documentary uncovering the truth about
new computer voting systems, which allow a few powerful corporations
to record our votes in secret. But the film is not just a warning. It
strongly concludes that elections are harder to defraud when voters
turn out in
big numbers. This documentary is designed specifically to help viewers
navigate past the fear and spin already being thrown at this critical
issue.

The film educates viewers about the dangers now threatening the voting
system. The film surprises and entertains as characters, like
grandmother/investigator Bev Harris, expose the truth, take on the
gatekeepers and hold them to account. It educates citizens about how
to keenly observe and question the process on Election Day and
empowers viewers to hold their election officials accountable.

George Wendt, the actor famous for his role as the good friend Norm on
the hit comedy Cheers, is the narrator.

Bev Harris, is the Executive Director of Black Box Voting www.BlackBoxVoting.org. According to Vanity Fair Magazine her
investigations are breaking newsthat would have made her career at The
New York Times or Washington Post.

Andy Stephenson, Associate Director, Black Box Voting, is uncovering
nationwide evidence of security risks in America's voting system .

The producers Simon Ardizzone, Russell Michaels and Robert
Carrillo-Cohen are independent filmmakers who decided to create this
30 minute film when they realized that most of the information on this
vital story was not reaching the public through the mainstream media.
They are producing the film in association with Sarah Teale/Teale
Productions and Earl Katz of Public Interest Pictures.

Target Audience

The documentary speaks directly to voters of all ages, and also to
people who have never considered voting before. This is the one issue
that can wake up the people, whether they're Democrats, Republicans,
Libertarians or Greens -- who believe democracy means that every vote
counts.

Production

We are continuing to shoot through the Presidential election and are
receiving contributions to fund the completion of the Post-Election
DVD / Feature
film.

ADDRESS

There are other web sites with Votergate in the title. Please be sure,
when referencing our film that you use the correct web address: www.votergate.tv.

ABOUT TEALE PRODUCTIONS

Teale Productions (www.tealeproductions.com ) was formed in 1988 and
has since built a reputation as a cutting edge investigative
documentary production and entertainment producing company. Teale has
produced award winning original documentaries and television series
for HBO, AMC, PBS, Channel 4 (UK), and the BBC. Teale Productions is
in constant development with high quality documentaries and original
productions.

ABOUT PUBLIC INTEREST PICTURES

Public Interest Pictures (PIP)www.publicinterestpictures.org) is a
non-profit organization committed to creating documentaries that will
not only be seen
by the masses but will also move them. PIP explores progressive issues
currently threatened by governmental policies at odds with the public
interest.

http://www.archive.org/movies/movies-details-db.ph p?collection=election_2004&collectionid=VotergateTheMovie&from=thisJustIn/

_________

E-voting irregularities raise eyebrows, blood pressure
Concern over electronic voting technology was not assuaged Tuesday as
glitches, confusion and human error raised a welter of problems across
the country, even while e-vote watchdogs prepared to file suits
challenging the results derived from the controversial machines.

New rules, new voters and a tight presidential contest combined to
create "a recipe for problems," said Sean Greene, who was watching
Cleveland polls for the Election Reform Information Project, a
nonpartisan research group on election reform.

Nearly one in three voters, including about half of those in Florida,
were expected to cast ballots using ATM-style voting machines that
computer scientists have criticized for their potential for software
glitches, hacking and malfunctioning.

In South Carolina, problems were reported in a handful of precincts in
two counties using electronic machines. Officials said voters were
forced to switch to paper ballots while technicians got the iVotronic
touch screens from Electronic Systems & Software up and running within
about 90 minutes.

And in Volusia County, Fla., a memory card in an optical-scan voting
machine failed Monday at an early voting site and didn't count 13,000
ballots. Officials planned to feed the ballots, in which voters fill
in a bubble, and count them Tuesday.

Many of the problems with electronic voting - whether accidental or
intentional - may not be known until well after Tuesday, if at all.
Most of the ATM-style machines, including all of Florida's, lack paper
records that could be used to verify the electronic results in a recount.

The Electronic Frontier Foundation's VerifiedVoting.org, which has
been monitoring the implementation of e-voting machines in the U.S.,
warned on Monday that over 20 percent of the machines tested by
observers around the country failed to record votes properly. The
organization recommended that voters choosing to use touchscreen
voting methods be sure to double-check the summary screen to confirm
that their votes had been properly registered.

BlackBoxVoting.org, the site organized by e-voting activist Bev
Harris, announced early Wednesday that it plans to conduct what the
site describes as the largest Freedom of Information Act request in
history, requesting internal computer logs and other documents from
3,000 individual counties and townships using electronic voting machines.

posted November 07, 2004 12:31 AM              

It's your opinion that Bush won fair and square and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. We are entitled to have a different opinion.

Besides what we do have to lose in finding out the truth? If Bush won fair and square then that's fine. It's all clarified. Voter confidence is restored. If he won fair and square and you and all his supporters are certain of that, and he knows that, then there should be no objection to an investigation on anyone's part.

As long as so many Americans question rather or not he won fair and square then for the sake of restoring confidence in voters especially after what happened in the 2000 election, then it should be cleared up just to ease their minds.

posted November 07, 2004 02:44 AM              

Thats just how Im seeing the situation

posted November 07, 2004 05:39 AM              

that's the way i feel too and what i was trying to say through my little rant. yes, i understand that we should never be afraid to question. (and this goes for who won an election too) sometimes i just feel such hate when i read posts on here and feel that there is no other point to a *questions* posed than hate. like i said, the election is over. let's get on and join together. not continue to beat a dead horse. it's unproductive. i think putting up pics. in which someone has a sign that says i hate bush is just perpetuating that hate. we can dislike someone but to put i hate you on a sign to show the world is a little sick. what does that show the world? really.

posted November 07, 2004 06:43 AM              

The nation will never come together until the Republicans learn tolerance. Hard to unite with people who call you a communist, and everything else just because you disagree with their thinking. Hard to unite with people who cannot even tolerate a different view of things or different opinions in a democracy. Hard to unite with people who consider if you are not one of them you are the enemy.

Bush divided the nation and the rest of the world. In spite of what he says, and consistently he has done the opposite of what he says, he does not want unity. It does not work to his advantage. Targeting certain groups as "those to hate" works to his advantage as it did in this election. The homosexuals was the hate group he targeted to win this election. "Liberals" are another hate group targeted by the Republican party. Actually calling someone a liberal is quite a complement if you know the defintion of a liberal from the dictionary. The Republicans deliberately distorted the meaning of liberal to suit their own agendas. Giving the people something to hate and something to fear is what works for Bush. And sheep will follow that without question. Though he says he is a man of faith fear is contrary to any religion. Jesus said,"Fear is useless." And constantly he says, "Fear not." Yet Bush thrives on fear. Think about it. You cannot have faith and fear at the same time. You cannot have love and fear at the same time.

Nope, when it comes to hate the Republicans have the monopoly on that.

quote:

---

I just dont feel like its being questioned because of actual possibilities, i think it is being questioned because people really really dont like Bush and they want to find a reason, any reason to get him out...out of hatred.

---

I stated to you my reasons miss_apple but you are sticking to your reasons and disregarding what I said. I don't say anything unless I mean what I say. You said you "feel" and you "think" those are my reasons and the reason why others don't trust Bush. You can "feel" and "think" but we can't? We can't "feel" and "think" the election was not won fair and square? If we feel and think that way it has to because we hate Bush and not because voters have the right to know why those numbers don't gel? Do you have an ulterior motive to why you feel and think this way? If not, then why do we have to have one?

Geez the man lied about WMD's in Iraq but we should trust him? He lied to Congress. He lied to the whole world. Trust is not something that comes with title of President or any other title. Like respect it has to be earned.

This is America. People have the right to ask questions. We have the right to question our leaders. We have the right to dissent without intimidation and reprisals. It's unpatriotic not to question. It's unpatriotic not to dissent. Read the post I put in concerning "You shall put no God before me." Then consider if you are not making a country or a President God. Because any time you say a President or a nation cannot be questioned you have made that President and that nation God.

Because of Bush and his administration and their lack of tolerance this country has become full of intolerance. That has no place in a democracy. Because he says no one should question him doesn't make it so.

posted November 07, 2004 12:55 PM            

Get ahead of the curve and start making excuses for another loss at the polls in 2008.

posted November 08, 2006 09:55 PM              

is it easier to b!tch about that than act upset that the Dems squeaked thru a majority?

maybe people would listen to your logic if you didn't "communicate" like a self-righteous know it all. yeah, you are smart- big deal-just like 99% of the people who post on these boards.

i realize you keep bringing it up just to bait me into an emotional reaction-very subtle- and really juicy anti-liberal news is going to be lacking today, so you've nothing better to do.

perhaps next you would like to mock my punctuation, maybe sentence structure?

posted November 08, 2006 10:09 PM            

First, I do recall them making valid points based on the likelihood of change that will come about because of these changes in Congress. Regardless of their words, it was suggested they weren't really okay with the results and merely masking their frustrations. That might be construed as insinuating dishonesty on their part. Which is funny considering what might have been said if they hadn't commented at all.

However, I do have to ask myself where all the cries of election fraud are?

The absence of those kinds of cries on the side of the "losers" shows at least a bit more graciousness than has been shown here in the past.

Really, weren't we using electronic voting machines this time, too? What? Did the NWO take a vacation? Or is this really some kind of Illuminati ruse designed to make us think the people still have a voice when they really don't? Surely, the machines can't be trusted! Don't you remember, the Neo Cons control everything!

Though I suppose some feel the past should be entirely forgotten ... but only if it could in any way even possibly reflect badly on themselves. Otherwise, it's fair game?

posted November 09, 2006 12:37 AM              

If the cries of fraud brought about legal elections in the U.S. once again then we did our job, Eleanore. Do you have a problem with the fact that our complaints brought about election reforms? Do you have an objection to fair elections in the U.S.? If not then what is the point that you are trying to make in bumping this thread up?

I can guess your point, Eleanore. It is an attempt on your part to try and make it look as though I was a bad loser for questioning along with many, many other Americans the illegal events of the last presidential election. And yet that questioning brought about change in election reforms and something good.

Meow, Eleanore. This was kind of catty on your part but thinks for pointing out that I was one of those who worked for the election reforms that brought about a smooth election process yesterday.

posted November 09, 2006 12:56 AM              

For that reason I will never regret having pointed this out and I will never regret the time I have put in and the efforts I have made since the last election in working to bring about election reforms. I will not be finished with that work until it becomes federal law that all states have a paper trail and that no electronic voting machines can contain a progam that makes it impossible to read who tampered with it.

It was only the Republican Right who love to smear and slander people anyway that labeled our pointing out of the irregularities in that election as being "poor losers." But we can see they are not the best losers either by the way they keep trying to make us look like bad losers and painting themselves, as usual in their hypocritical way, as being somehow better people. lol