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Author Topic:   My God Can Beat Up Your God I Win You Lose
Mirandee
unregistered
posted November 07, 2004 11:51 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That seems to be the prevailing way of thinking these days when God and religion become a political tool. Myself I think that is really sick.

This is something people should keep in mind when they begin to cast their votes based their judgment of a candidates faith. All religions are different in how they express their faith. All people are different and that does not mean that one has less faith than another.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/152/story_15204_1.html

The Varieties of Political Religion
Bush's evangelicalism fits our thirst for fervent faith and second acts. But Kerry's religion is no weaker for being different.

By Alan Wolfe

George W. Bush is comfortable talking about his faith in public. He is unafraid to call on God’s help for his foreign policy, and intent on designing policies to allow a role for the Almighty. Mr. Bush’s opponent, John F. Kerry, is often told he needs to persuade Americans that he is just as religious as the president.

Such advice may be strategically sound. I leave that the campaign managers. But from a religious point of view, it makes little sense.

In politics we talk about religion as if it were a quantity that can be measured: a person or a region is said to have more of it while others presumably have less. In reality, religion is a quality constantly in flux, resistant to measurement and precise definition. The best book ever written on religion by an American – and one of the best books by anyone – is William James’s "The Varieties of Religious Experience." The title gives away its emphasis: that faith can never be one thing and one thing only. Especially in pluralistic America, there are religions, not religion; beliefs, not belief; truths, not Truth.

Americans generally prefer the heart to the head. We insist that everyone deserves a second chance, and are captivated by personal stories of recovery and discovery. Since all of these traits are as central to evangelicalism as to daytime television, Bush’s manner of being religious – testimonial, based on a personal relationship with the deity, and self-confident in its tone – is taken as the only way to be religious. But there are many ways of honoring a Supreme Being, and from the perspective of some of them, including John Kerry’s Catholicism, Bush’s actions would not seem especially religious at all.

Evangelicals, for instance, assign less importance to religion’s outward manifestations – its symbols, its rituals, its liturgical regularity – than Kerry's Catholicism does. For all its well-known taste for Bible study, Bush's tenure has not been an especially ceremonial one. After September 11, Bush called for unity in an impressive and moving ceremony at the National Cathedral in Washington, But the war in Iraq has not been accompanied, as wars traditionally have been, by visual displays of coffins and public grief at funerals.

For his part, John F. Kerry is liable to be reluctant to talk about his religion in the testimonial terms so favored by evangelicals. In his church, faith is expressed through public communion, not by personal declaration. Every time Kerry is seen taking communion, a ritual central to the way Catholics define their faith, he tells Americans what they need to know about his religion without uttering a word. Similarly, were he to become president, my guess is Sen. Kerry would be more ceremonial than President Bush, while discussing faith less.

Protestants and Catholics also differ in the way they treat the distinction between the sacred and the profane. While all religions mark certain days as holy and certain spaces as special, Catholics have more holidays than most—there is a feast or a saint's day nearly every day of the year. As relatively recent immigrants, Catholics typically view these holy days as occasions to celebrate family and community, rather than to work or get ahead.

The Protestant ethic, by contrast, has been famously defined as utilitarian, more compatible with capitalism and its emphasis on productivity and success. It is no insult to Bush’s faith to suggest that his administration prefers to profane to the sacred. (This is not a comment on its fervor. Attorney General John Ashcroft, for one, is moved by his Pentacostal faith to purify the world of sin. But this same administration is not one that treats nature as a God-given wonder to be protected against human encroachment, or that resists commerce on Sundays as a way of remembering that on the sabbath God rested.)

For Catholics, as in other religious traditions, relieving the sufferings of the poor is one of the highest forms of religious expression. In the great historical divide between Christians who stress faith and those who stress deeds, Catholics stress the latter: their tradition charges them with serving others. (This is the reason Kerry has repeatedly cited the Letter of James cautioning that faith without works is empty.) Doing so through a secular institution such as government is not only appropriate, but required. It would be sinful to be in a position in to relieve suffering and not take action such as increasing welfare benefits or extending medical insurance to children. Bush's championing of church programs to administer social services is not more religious than relying on direct government means simply because it calls itself "faith-based." Each is religious in its own way.

The same is true of issues of war and peace. Conservative Protestants have typically supported American wars on the grounds that the United States has been chosen by God to do great things. Catholics have supported American foreign policy, especially during the cold war, but their anti-war tradition is stronger. Many Catholics, including the pope, have criticized Bush's willingness to go to war, while conservative Christians have mostly honored him for this same policy. But the president and his critics are both motivated by their faith.

Other religions complicate the picture ever further. Bush’s faith is manifest in his obvious and oft-stated belief in the existence of a Supreme Being. But for Jews, observance can be more important than belief; if you honor the traditions, you are a good Jew even if you question the existence of God. For Buddhists, there are many gods, not one, and enlightenment does not necessarily include belief in any of them, at least as Christians understand that term.

Jews and Muslims honor traditions as they are embedded in legal codes that have evolved over the centuries. For evangelicals, by contrast, honoring tradition can be wrong if the tradition is found to be inauthentic. Indeed, evangelicals once had a tradition of viewing politics as Satan’s work. Had that view persisted, Bush would never have become president of the United States.

Due to the emergence of a political wing of conservative Christianity, Bush has the support of many leaders of conservative Christianity. Religion will therefore play as large a role in the 2004 campaign as it did four years ago. If that role is a divisive one, as if faith were football game and only one side can win, its role will be negative. If it instead reminds all Americans that in this country there is no monopoly on faith, it will strengthen not only religion, but a society in which so many religions have flourished.


quote:
If that role is a divisive one, as if faith were football game and only one side can win, its role will be negative.

We all know what route the Republican party took - the devisive one. No surprise there.


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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted November 08, 2004 12:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kerry can't talk coherently about his faith because he's against the basic tenets of the Catholic church.

Kerry is a phony who used his so called faith to deceive those who do believe into voting for him.

It didn't work.

There are a lot of other phonies in the various religions who don't believe a word of either the bible or the teachings of their church but who use religion as a cover for their decidedly anti biblical positions.

I'm in no way whatsoever religious but I know the bible inside and out. For those who claim to be religious and yet take positions directly against the teaching of the bible and their church, I know exactly what to call them because when I judge, I judge based on what people say are the guiding principles in their lives verses what they actually say and do.

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Mirandee
unregistered
posted November 08, 2004 12:30 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What do you know about Catholicism to make that judgment, jwhop? Are you Catholic? Do have understanding of Catholic faith at all? Do you know anything about Kerry's faith life? It has been in books. It has been discussed by those priests who have always known him. Oh that's right. You only read Newmax to hone up on your attacks. Your mind is too narrow to read other things. Which means when it comes to Kerry's faith you are ignorant. You are too narrow minded and ignorant to even realize this article explained that Catholics on the norm do not talk about their faith. In fact, we don't see it particularly a sign of faith for a person to talk about it. Anyone can say anything. You know a person's faith through their works and actions. I know your faith by the way you are filled with hate, prejudice, condemnation and the superiority your words tell me you feel over others. That being the case you should "see the plank in your own eye, before pointing it out in Kerry's eye."

Once again all you want to do is attack and pass judgment without even having knowledge. Just attack for the sake of discrediting the character of others rather than absorb what is being said here in this article. You use God for the purpose of attack. Totally disgusting.

With all the harsh judgments and condemnation you pass on others, knowing the Bible as well as you pretend you do ( though it seems ever there the whole message has escaped you) you should know that Jesus said," by what measure you judge others you will also be judged." Be ready for some real harsh judging, jwhop.

Where do you, the Republican Party, and the Religious Right get off thinking you have the right to question the faith of others anyway? When did God die and put you all in charge?

quote:
There are a lot of other phonies in the various religions who don't believe a word of either the bible or the teachings of their church but who use religion as a cover for their decidedly anti biblical positions.

True. Bush is one of them. So is Jerry Farwell and Pat Robinson.

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted November 08, 2004 01:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your position is wholly unsustainable moonflower as is Kerry's.

You would destroy the teachings of the Catholic church in your quest to sustain the traitor and renegade Catholic, John Kerry.

For someone who claims to be a student of a Catholic institution, you seem to not have absorbed much of the Catholic doctrine.

There are 2 equally appropriate words for both you and Kerry. One is apostate, the other is religious hypocrite. Take your choice.

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