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Author Topic:   Kerry Won Ohio!
Rainbow~
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posted November 13, 2004 03:38 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Kerry Won Ohio -
Just Count The Ballots At
The Back Of The Bus
Most voters in Ohio chose Kerry.
Here's how the votes vanished.


By Greg Palast
11-13-4

This February, Ken Blackwell, Ohio's Secretary of State, told his State Senate President, "The possibility of a close election with punch cards as the state's primary voting device invites a Florida-like calamity." Blackwell, co-chair of Bush-Cheney reelection campaign, wasn't warning his fellow Republican of disaster, but boasting of an opportunity to bring in Ohio for Team Bush no matter what the voters wanted. And most voters in Ohio wanted JFK, not GWB. But their choice won't count because their votes won't be counted.

The ballots that add up to a majority for John Kerry in Ohio -- and in New Mexico -- are locked up in two Republican hidey-holes: "spoiled" ballots and "provisional" ballots.

OHIO SPOILED ROTTEN

American democracy has a dark little secret. In a typical presidential election, two million ballots are simply chucked in the garbage, marked "spoiled" and not counted. A dive into the electoral dumpster reveals something special about these votes left to rot. In a careful county-by-county, precinct-by-precinct analysis of the Florida 2000 race, the US Civil Rights Commission discovered that 54% of the votes in the spoilage bin were cast by African-Americans. And Florida, Heaven help us, is typical. Nationwide, the number of Black votes "disappeared" into the spoiled pile is approximately one million. The other million in the no-count pit come mainly from Hispanic, Native-American and poor white precincts, a decidedly Democratic demographic.

Ohio Republicans, simultaneously in charge of both the Bush-Cheney get-out-the-vote drive and the state's vote-counting rules, doggedly and systematically insured the spoilage pile would be as high as the White House.

Vote spoilage comes in two flavors. There are "overvotes" -- too many punches in the cards -- and "undervotes." Here we find the hanging, dimpled and "pregnant" chads created by old, dysfunctional punch card machines, in which the bit of paper covering the hole doesn't fall out, but hangs on. Machines can't read these, but we humans, who know a hole when we see one, have no problem reading these cards ... if allowed to. This is how Katherine Harris defeated Al Gore, by halting the hand count of the spoiled punch cards not, as is generally believed, by halting a "recount."

Whose chads are left hanging? In Florida in 2000 federal investigators determined that Black voters' ballots spoiled 900% more often than white voters, mainly due to punch card error. Ohio Republicans found those racial odds quite attractive. The state was the only one of fifty to refuse to eliminate or fix these vote-eating machines, even in the face of a lawsuit by the ACLU.

Apparently, the Ohio Republicans like what the ACLU found. The civil rights group's expert testimony concluded that Ohio's cussed insistence on forcing 73% of its electorate to use punch card machines had an "overwhelming" racial bias, voiding votes mostly in Black precincts. Blackwell doesn't disagree; and he hopes to fix the machinery ... sometime after George Bush's next inauguration. In the meantime, the state's Attorney General Jim Petro, a Republican, strategically postponed the trial date of the ACLU case until after the election.

Fixing a punch card machine is cheap and easy. If Ohio simply placed a card-reading machine in each polling station, as Michigan did this year, voters could have checked to ensure their vote would tally. If not, they would have gotten another card.

Blackwell knows that. He also knows that if those reading machines had been installed, almost all the 93,000 spoiled votes, overwhelmingly Democratic, would have closed the gap on George Bush's lead of 136,000 votes.

JIM CROW'S PROVISIONAL BALLOT

Add to the spoiled ballots a second group of uncounted votes, the 'provisional' ballots, and -- voila! -- the White House would have turned Democrat blue.

But that won't happen because of the peculiar way provisional ballots are counted or, more often, not counted. Introduced by federal law in 2002, the provisional ballot was designed especially for voters of color. Proposed by the Congressional Black Caucus to save the rights of those wrongly scrubbed from voter rolls, it was, in Republican-controlled swing states, twisted into a back-of-the-bus ballot unlikely to be tallied.

Unlike the real thing, these ballots are counted only by the whimsy and rules of a state's top elections official; and in Ohio, that gives a virtually ballot veto to Secretary of State Blackwell.

Mr. Blackwell has a few rules to make sure a large proportion of provisional ballots won't be counted. For the first time in memory, the Secretary of State has banned counting ballots cast in the "wrong" precinct, though all neighborhoods share the same President.

Over 155,000 Ohio voters were shunted to these second-class ballots. The election-shifting bulge in provisional ballots (more than 3% of the electorate) was the direct result of the national Republican strategy that targeted African-American precincts for mass challenges on election day.

This is the first time in four decades that a political party has systematically barred -- in this case successfully -- hundreds of thousands of Black voters from access to the voting booth. While investigating for BBC Television, we obtained three dozen of the Republican Party's confidential "caging" lists, their title for spreadsheets listing names and addresses of voters they intended to block on any pretext.

We found that every single address of the thousands on these Republican hit lists was located in Black-majority precincts. You might find that nasty and racist. It may also be a crime.

Before 1965, Jim Crow laws in the Deep South did not bar Blacks from voting. Rather, the segregationist game was played by applying minor technical voting requirements only to African-Americans. That year, Congress voted to make profiling and impeding minority voters, even with a legal pretext, a criminal offence under the Voting Rights Act.

But that didn't stop the Republicans of '04. Their legally questionable mass challenge to Black voters is not some low-level dirty tricks operation of local party hacks. Emails we obtained show the lists were copied directly to the Republican National Committee's chief of research and to the director of a state campaign.

Many challenges center on changes of address. On one Republican caging list, 50 addresses changed from Jacksonville to overseas, African-American soldiers shipped Over There.

You don't have to guess the preferences registered on the provisional ballots. Republicans went on a challenging rampage, while Democrats pledged to hold to the tradition of letting voters vote.

Blackwell has said he will count all the "valid" provisional ballots. However, his rigid regulations, like the new guess-your-precinct rule, are rigged to knock out enough voters to keep Bush's skinny lead alive. Other pre-election maneuvers by Republican officials -- late and improbably large purges of voter rolls, rejection of registrations -- maximized the use of provisional ballots which will never be counted. For example, a voter wrongly tagged an ineligible "felon" voter (and there's plenty in that category, mostly African-Americans), will lose their ballot even though they are wrongly identified.

KERRY BLACKS OUT

It was heartening that, during his campaign, John Kerry broke the political omerta that seems to prohibit public mention of the color of votes not counted in America. "Don't tell us that in the strongest democracy on earth a million disenfranchised African Americans is the best we can do." The Senator promised the NAACP convention, "This November, we're going to make sure that every single vote is counted."

But this week, Kerry became the first presidential candidate in history to break a campaign promise after losing an election. The Senator waited less than 24 hours to abandon more than a quarter million Ohio voters still waiting for their provisional and chad-spoiled ballots to be counted.

While disappointing, I can understand the cold calculus against taking the fight to the end. To count the ballots, Kerry's lawyers would, first, have to demand a hand reading of the punch cards. Blackwell, armed with the Supreme Court's Bush v. Gore diktat, would undoubtedly pull a "Kate Harris" by halting or restricting a hand count. Most daunting, Kerry's team would also, as one state attorney general pointed out to me, have to litigate each and every rejected provisional ballot in court. This would entail locating up to a hundred thousand voters to testify to their right to the vote, with Blackwell challenging each with a holster full of regulations from the old Jim Crow handbook.

Given the odds and the cost to his political career, Kerry bent, not to the will of the people, but to the will to power of the Ohio Republican machine.

We have yet to total here the votes lost in missing absentee ballots, in eyebrow-raising touch screen tallies, in purges of legal voters from registries and other games played in swing states. But why dwell on these things? Our betters in the political and media elite have told us to get over it, move on.

To the victors go the spoils of electoral class war. As Ohio's politically ambitious Secretary of State brags on his own website, "Last time I checked, Blackwell said, "Katherine Harris wasn't in a soup line, she's in Congress."

NEW MEXICO GOES KERRY - BUT WHO'S COUNTING?

Why single out Ohio? So it also went in New Mexico where ballots of Hispanic voters (two-to-one Kerry supporters) spoil at a rate five times that of white voters. Add in the astounding 13,000 provisional ballots in the Enchanted State -- handed out "like candy" to Hispanic, not white, voters according to a director of the Catholic Church's get-out-the-vote drive -- and Kerry wins New Mexico. Just count up the votes ... but that won't happen.

Investigative reporter Greg Palast is author of The Best Democracy Money Can Buy (Penguin 2004).

Oliver Shykles and Matthew Pascarella of GregPalast.com contributed to this article.

View Greg Palast's BBC Television film, "Bush Family Fortunes," now available on DVD, at http://www.gregpalast.com/bff-dvd.htm

To receive Greg's investigative reports go to: http://www.gregpalast.com/contact.cfm


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Mirandee
unregistered
posted November 13, 2004 07:30 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah and what gets me about this with Blackwell is that he is himself, a black man. He is betraying his own people so I'm not certain he knows he is a black man and I don't know what he is getting or hoping for in exchange from the Republican party for betraying his own people but he definitely is a Judas.

I know that he placed only two voting booths in black areas forcing them to stand out in the rain for as long as 9 hours or more. The Republican fraud machine did this in hopes that voters they knew were historically Democrats would give up and not vote. I'm sure many did.

I think that actually the Repbulican Party should pull up stakes and move to the banana republic or become dictators of small islands somewhere. It seems that would suit them much better than a democracy.

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KarenSD
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posted November 13, 2004 01:32 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Unfreakingbelievable...

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted November 13, 2004 02:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Where is the smoking gun? Where are the vote results? How is it you have the information concerning this and NO ONE else seems to - or is it a vast right wing conspiracy surpressing the REAL results?

LOL

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Rainbow~
unregistered
posted November 13, 2004 06:50 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
...or is it a vast right wing conspiracy surpressing the REAL results?

Oh that's probably more true than you know, Pid....(or want to admit)

Remember Connie Chung?

She was about to do an expose on the mysterious SKULL AND BONES SOCIETY, and there was even some pre show promotion for it on CNN.....(I was looking forward to watching it)...

....but then?.....

..........then?........

Not only was her expose cancelled, but she herself was cancelled......CNN fired her shortly after....

So...unless a person wants to give up his bread and butter, chances are, he's not going to "go against the grain" with certain powers that be...if you know what I mean....

Love,
Rainbow

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Mirandee
unregistered
posted November 13, 2004 11:14 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The media is owned world-wide by nine corporations, pidua. This is due to Ronald Reagan and Bush Sr.'s years in the White House. Another Republican legacy the world has to live with. All we basically get in the news now is government propaganda and spins. What they don't want us to know they simply don't print or broadcast. For that reason people have mostly turned to the internet, the infromation highway, to get their news. Besides the deregulation and privitizing of media and communication systems, Ronald Reagan with his appointee to the FCC banished the Fairness Doctrine which provided for non-partial and non-partisan reporting. Now what we have does not even resemble free press as the Constitution provided for nor does it resemble what should be the case in a democracy. What it all amounts to is state TV news and state newspapers because all of those corporations support Bush and Republicans in general. Why not? It was due to them that they own all the media and are making billions of dollars. If you remember, Disney, tried to ban Michael Moore's "Farenheit 9/11" in this country. Another thing unheard of in a democracy in the past. He had to get a Canadian company to release his movie.

Amazing how Republicans like Bush are always spouting off about how they are going to bring democracy to the world and we don't even have it here in the U.S. any longer thanks to him and his father and Reagan.

Here are the facts if you care to check them out.
http://www.fair.org/extra/9711/gmg.html

The Global Media Giants

The nine firms that dominate the world
By Robert W. McChesney


Time Warner | Disney | Bertelsmann | Viacom | News Corporation | Sony | TCI | Universal | NBC
A specter now haunts the world: a global commercial media system dominated by a small number of super-powerful, mostly U.S.-based transnational media corporations. It is a system that works to advance the cause of the global market and promote commercial values, while denigrating journalism and culture not conducive to the immediate bottom line or long-run corporate interests. It is a disaster for anything but the most superficial notion of democracy--a democracy where, to paraphrase John Jay's maxim, those who own the world ought to govern it.

The global commercial system is a very recent development. Until the 1980s, media systems were generally national in scope. While there have been imports of books, films, music and TV shows for decades, the basic broadcasting systems and newspaper industries were domestically owned and regulated. Beginning in the 1980s, pressure from the IMF, World Bank and U.S. government to deregulate and privatize media and communication systems coincided with new satellite and digital technologies, resulting in the rise of transnational media giants.

How quickly has the global media system emerged? The two largest media firms in the world, Time Warner and Disney, generated around 15 percent of their income outside of the United States in 1990. By 1997, that figure was in the 30 percentŠ35 percent range. Both firms expect to do a majority of their business abroad at some point in the next decade.

The global media system is now dominated by a first tier of nine giant firms. The five largest are Time Warner (1997 sales: $24 billion), Disney ($22 billion), Bertelsmann ($15 billion), Viacom ($13 billion), and Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation ($11 billion). Besides needing global scope to compete, the rules of thumb for global media giants are twofold: First, get bigger so you dominate markets and your competition can't buy you out. Firms like Disney and Time Warner have almost tripled in size this decade.

Second, have interests in numerous media industries, such as film production, book publishing, music, TV channels and networks, retail stores, amusement parks, magazines, newspapers and the like. The profit whole for the global media giant can be vastly greater than the sum of the media parts. A film, for example, should also generate a soundtrack, a book, and merchandise, and possibly spin-off TV shows, CD-ROMs, video games and amusement park rides. Firms that do not have conglomerated media holdings simply cannot compete in this market.

The first tier is rounded out by TCI, the largest U.S. cable company that also has U.S. and global media holdings in scores of ventures too numerous to mention. The other three first-tier global media firms are all part of much larger industrial corporate powerhouses: General Electric (1997 sales: $80 billion), owner of NBC; Sony (1997 sales: $48 billion), owner of Columbia & TriStar Pictures and major recording interests; and Seagram (1997 sales: $14 billion), owner of Universal film and music interests. The media holdings of these last four firms do between $6 billion and $9 billion in business per year. While they are not as diverse as the media holdings of the first five global media giants, these four firms have global distribution and production in the areas where they compete. And firms like Sony and GE have the resources to make deals to get a lot bigger very quickly if they so desire.

Behind these firms is a second tier of some three or four dozen media firms that do between $1 billion and $8 billion per year in media-related business. These firms tend to have national or regional strongholds or to specialize in global niche markets. About one-half of them come from North America, including the likes of Westinghouse (CBS), the New York Times Co., Hearst, Comcast and Gannett. Most of the rest come from Europe, with a handful based in East Asia and Latin America.

In short, the overwhelming majority (in revenue terms) of the world's film production, TV show production, cable channel ownership, cable and satellite system ownership, book publishing, magazine publishing and music production is provided by these 50 or so firms, and the first nine firms thoroughly dominate many of these sectors. By any standard of democracy, such a concentration of media power is troubling, if not unacceptable.

But that hardly explains how concentrated and uncompetitive this global media power actually is. In addition, these firms are all actively engaged in equity joint ventures where they share ownership of concerns with their "competitors" so as to reduce competition and risk. Each of the nine first-tier media giants, for example, has joint ventures with, on average, two-thirds of the other eight first-tier media giants. And the second tier is every bit as aggressive about making joint ventures. (See chart below for the extent of joint ventures between media giants.)

We are the world
In some ways, the emerging global commercial media system is not an entirely negative proposition. It occasionally promotes anti-racist, anti-sexist or anti-authoritarian messages that can be welcome in some of the more repressive corners of the world. But on balance the system has minimal interest in journalism or public affairs except for that which serves the business and upper-middle classes, and it privileges just a few lucrative genres that it can do quite well--like sports, light entertainment and action movies--over other fare. Even at its best the entire system is saturated by a hyper-commercialism, a veritable commercial carpetbombing of every aspect of human life. As the C.E.O. of Westinghouse put it (Advertising Age, 2/3/97), "We are here to serve advertisers. That is our raison d'etre."

Some once posited that the rise of the Internet would eliminate the monopoly power of the global media giants. Such talk has declined recently as the largest media, telecommunication and computer firms have done everything within their immense powers to colonize the Internet, or at least neutralize its threat. The global media cartel may be evolving into a global communication cartel.

But the entire global media and communication system is still in flux. While we are probably not too far from crystallization, there will likely be considerable merger and joint venture activity in the coming years. Indeed, by the time you read this, there may already be some shifts in who owns what or whom.

What is tragic is that this entire process of global media concentration has taken place with little public debate, especially in the U.S., despite the clear implications for politics and culture. After World War II, the Allies restricted media concentration in occupied Germany and Japan because they noted that such concentration promoted anti-democratic, even fascist, political cultures. It may be time for the United States and everyone else to take a dose of that medicine. But for that to happen will require concerted effort to educate and organize people around media issues. That is the task before us.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This article and the following corporate profiles are based on The Global Media: The New Missionaries of Corporate Capitalism (Cassell, 1997), co-authored with Edward S. Herman. The Global Media can be ordered by calling 1-800-561-7704.


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Time Warner
$25 billion - 1997 sales

Time Warner, the largest media corporation in the world, was formed in 1989 through the merger of Time Inc. and Warner Communications. In 1992, Time Warner split off its entertainment group, and sold 25 percent of it to U.S. West, and 5.6 percent of it to each of the Japanese conglomerates Itochu and Toshiba. It regained from Disney its position as the world's largest media firm with the 1996 acquisition of Turner Broadcasting.

Time Warner is moving toward being a fully global company, with over 200 subsidiaries worldwide. In 1996, approximately two-thirds of Time Warner's income came from the United States, but that figure is expected to drop to three-fifths by 2000 and eventually to less than one-half. Time Warner expects globalization to provide growth tonic; it projects that its annual sales growth rate of 14 percent in the middle 1990s will climb to over 20 percent by the end of the decade.

Music accounts for just over 20 percent of Time Warner's business, as does the news division of magazine and book publishing and cable television news. Time Warner's U.S. cable systems account for over 10 percent of income. The remainder is accounted for largely by Time Warner's extensive entertainment film, video and television holdings. Time Warner is a major force in virtually every medium and on every continent.

Time Warner has zeroed in on global television as the most lucrative area for growth. Unlike News Corporation, however, Time Warner has devoted itself to producing programming and channels rather than developing entire satellite systems. Time Warner is also one of the largest movie theater owners in the world, with approximately 1,000 screens outside of the United States and further expansion projected.

The Time Warner strategy is to merge the former Turner global channels--CNN and TNT/Cartoon Channel--with their HBO International and recently launched Warner channels to make a four-pronged assault on the global market. HBO International has already established itself as the leading subscription TV channel in the world; it has a family of pay channels and is available in over 35 countries. HBO President Jeffrey Bewkes states that global expansion is HBO's "manifest destiny."

CNN International, a subsidiary of CNN, is also established as the premier global television news channel, beamed via ten satellites to over 200 nations and 90 million subscribers by 1994, a 27 percent increase over 1993. The long-term goal for CNN International is to operate (or participate in joint ventures to establish) CNN channels in French, Japanese, Hindi, Arabic and perhaps one or two other regional languages. CNN launched a Spanish-language service for Latin America in 1997, based in Atlanta. CNN International will also draw on the Time Warner journalism resources as it faces new challenges from news channels launched by News Corporation and NBC-Microsoft.

Before their 1996 merger, Turner and Time Warner were both global television powers with the TNT/Cartoon Network and Warner channels, drawing upon their respective large libraries of cartoons and motion pictures. Now these channels will be redeployed to better utilize each other's resources, with plans being drawn up to develop several more global cable channels to take advantage of the world's largest film, television and cartoon libraries.

Time Warner selected holdings
Majority interest in WB, a U.S. television network launched in 1995 to provide a distribution platform for Time Warner films and programs. It is carried on the Tribune Company's 16 U.S. television stations, which reach 25 percent of U.S. TV households;
Significant interests in non-U.S. broadcasting joint ventures;
The largest cable system in the United States, controlling 22 of the largest 100 markets;
Several U.S. and global cable television channels, including CNN, Headline News, CNNfn, TBS, TNT, Turner Classic Movies, The Cartoon Network and CNN-SI (a cross-production with Sports Illustrated);
Partial ownership of the cable channel Comedy Central and a controlling stake in Court TV;
HBO and Cinemax pay cable channels;
Minority stake in PrimeStar, U.S. satellite television service;
Warner Brothers and New Line Cinema film studios;
More than 1,000 movie screens outside of the United States;
A library of over 6,000 films, 25,000 television programs, books, music and thousands of cartoons;
Twenty-four magazines, including Time, People and Sports Illustrated;
Fifty percent of DC Comics, publisher of Superman, Batman and 60 other titles;
The second largest book-publishing business in the world, including Time-Life Books (42 percent of sales outside of the United States) and the Book-of-the-Month Club;
Warner Music Group, one of the largest global music businesses with nearly 60 percent of revenues from outside the United States;
Six Flags theme park chain; The Atlanta Hawks and Atlanta Braves professional sports teams; Retail stores, including over 150 Warner Bros. stores and Turner Retail Group; Minority interests in toy companies Atari and Hasbro.

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Disney
$24 billion - 1997 sales

Disney is the closest challenger to Time Warner for the status of world's largest media firm. In the early 1990s, Disney successfully shifted its emphasis from its theme parks and resorts to its film and television divisions. In 1995, Disney made the move from being a dominant global content producer to being a fully integrated media giant with the purchase of Capital Cities/ABC for $19 billion, one of the biggest acquisitions in business history.

Disney now generates 31 percent of its income from broadcasting, 23 percent from theme parks, and the balance from "creative content," meaning films, publishing and merchandising. The ABC deal provided Disney, already regarded as the industry leader at using cross-selling and cross-promotion to maximize revenues, with a U.S. broadcasting network and widespread global media holdings to incorporate into its activities.

Consequently, according to Advertising Age (8/7/95), Disney "is uniquely positioned to fulfill virtually any marketing option, on any scale, almost anywhere in the world." It has already included the new Capital Cities/ABC brands in its exclusive global marketing deals with McDonald's and Mattel toymakers. Although Disney has traditionally preferred to operate on its own, C.E.O. Michael Eisner has announced Disney's plans to expand aggressively overseas through joint ventures with local firms or other global players, or through further acquisitions. Disney's stated goal is to expand its non-U.S. share of revenues from 23 percent in 1995 to 50 percent by 2000.

Historically, Disney has been strong in entertainment and animation, two areas that do well in the global market. In 1996 Disney reorganized, putting all its global television activities into a single division, Disney/ABC International Television. Its first order of business is to expand the children- and family-oriented Disney Channel into a global force, capitalizing upon the enormous Disney resources. Disney is also developing an advertising-supported children's channel to complement the subscription Disney Channel.

For the most part, Disney's success has been restricted to English-language channels in North America, Britain and Australia. Disney's absence has permitted the children's channels of News Corporation, Time Warner and especially Viacom to dominate the lucrative global market. Disney launched a Chinese-language Disney Channel based in Taiwan in 1995, and plans to launch Disney Channels in France, Italy, Germany and the Middle East. "The Disney Channel should be the killer children's service throughout the world," Disney's executive in charge of international television states.

With the purchase of ABC's ESPN, the television sports network, Disney has possession of the unquestioned global leader. ESPN has three U.S. cable channels, a radio network with 420 affiliates, and the ESPN Sports-Zone website, one of the most heavily used locales on the Internet. One Disney executive notes that with ESPN and the family-oriented Disney Channel, Disney has "two horses to ride in foreign markets, not just one."

ESPN International dominates televised sport, broadcasting on a 24-hour basis in 21 languages to over 165 countries. It reaches the one desirable audience that had eluded Disney in the past: young, single, middle-class men. "Our plan is to think globally but to customize locally," states the senior VP of ESPN International. In Latin America the emphasis is on soccer, in Asia it is table tennis, and in India ESPN provided over 1,000 hours of cricket in 1995.

Disney plans to exploit the "synergies" of ESPN much as it has exploited its cartoon characters. "We know that when we lay Mickey Mouse or Goofy on top of products, we get pretty creative stuff," Eisner states. "ESPN has the potential to be that kind of brand." Disney plans call for a chain of ESPN theme sports bars, ESPN product merchandising, and possibly a chain of ESPN entertainment centers based on the Club ESPN at Walt Disney World. ESPN has released five music CDs, two of which have sold over 500,000 copies. In late 1996, Disney began negotiations with Hearst and Petersen Publishing to produce ESPNSports Weekly magazine, to be a "branded competitor to Sports Illustrated."

Disney selected holdings
The U.S. ABC television and radio networks;
Ten U.S. television stations and 21 U.S. radio stations;
U.S. and global cable television channels Disney Channel, ESPN, ESPN2 and ESPNews; holdings in Lifetime, A & E and History channels;
Americast, interactive TV joint venture with several telephone companies;
Several major film, video and television production studios including Disney, Miramax and Buena Vista;
Magazine and newspaper publishing, through its subsidiaries, Fairchild Publications and Chilton Publications;
Book publishing, including Hyperion Books and Chilton Publications;
Several music labels, including Hollywood Records, Mammoth Records and Walt Disney Records;
Theme parks and resorts, including Disneyland, Disney World and stakes in major theme parks in France and Japan;
Disney Cruise Line;
DisneyQuest, a chain of high-tech arcade game stores;
Controlling interests in the NHL Anaheim Mighty Ducks and major league baseball's Anaheim Angels;
Consumer products, including more than 550 Disney retail stores worldwide.

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Bertelsmann
$15 billion - 1996 sales

Bertelsmann is the one European firm in the first tier of media giants. The Bertelsmann empire was built on global networks of book and music clubs. Music and television provide 31 percent of its income, book publishing 33 percent, magazines and newspapers 20 percent, and a global printing business accounts for the remainder. In 1994 its income was distributed among Germany (36 percent), the rest of Europe (32 percent), the United States (24 percent) and the rest of the world (8 percent).

Bertelsmann's stated goal is to evolve "from a media enterprise with international activities into a truly global communications group." Bertelsmann's strengths in global expansion are its global distribution network for music, its global book and music clubs, and its facility with languages other than English. It is working to strengthen its music holdings to become the world leader, through a possible buyout of--or merger with--EMI and through establishing joint ventures with local music companies in emerging markets. Bertelsmann is considered to be the best contender of all the media giants to exploit the Eastern European markets.

Bertelsmann has two severe competitive disadvantages in the global media sweepstakes. It has no significant film or television production studios or film library, and it has minimal involvement in global television, where much of the growth is taking place. The company began to address this problem in 1996 by merging its television interests (Ufa) into a joint venture with Compagnie Luxembourgeoise de Telediffusion (CLT), the Luxembourg-based European commercial broadcasting power. According to a Bertelsmann executive, the CLT deal was "a strategic step to become a major media player, especially in light of the recent European and American mergers."

Bertelsmann selected holdings
German television channels RTL, RTL2, SuperRTL and Vox;
Part ownership of Premiere, Germany's largest pay-TV channel;
Stakes in British, French and Dutch TV channels;
50 percent stake in CLT-Ufa, which owns 19 European TV channels and 23 European radio stations;
Eighteen European radio stations;
Newspaper and magazine publishing, including more than 100 magazines;
Book publishing, with some 40 publishing houses, concentrating on German-, French- and English-language (Bantam and Doubleday Dell) titles;
Major recording studios Arista and RCA;
Leading book and record clubs in the world.

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Viacom
$13 billion - 1997 sales

C.E.O. Sumner Redstone, who controls 39 percent of Viacom's stock, orchestrated the deals that led to the acquisitions of Paramount and Blockbuster in 1994, thereby promoting the firm from $2 billion in 1993 sales to the front ranks. Viacom generates 33 percent of its income from its film studios, 33 percent from its music, video rentals and theme parks, 18 percent from broadcasting, and 14 percent from publishing. Redstone's strategy is for Viacom to become the world's "premier software driven growth company."

Viacom's growth strategy is twofold. First, it is implementing an aggressive policy of using company-wide cross-promotions to improve sales. It proved invaluable that MTV constantly plugged the film Clueless in 1995, and the same strategy will be applied to the Paramount television program based on the movie. Simon & Schuster is establishing a Nickelodeon book imprint and a "Beavis and Butthead" book series based on the MTV characters. Viacom also has plans to establish a comic-book imprint based upon Paramount characters, it is considering creating a record label to exploit its MTV brand name and it has plans to open a chain of retail stores to capitalize upon its "brands" ˆ la Disney and Time Warner. In 1997 Paramount will begin producing three Nickelodeon and three MTV movies annually. "We're just now beginning to realize the benefits of the Paramount and Blockbuster mergers," Redstone stated in 1996.

Second, Viacom has targeted global growth, with a stated goal of earning 40 percent of its revenues outside of the United States by 2000. As one Wall Street analyst puts it, Redstone wants Viacom "playing in the same international league" with News Corporation and Time Warner. Since 1992 Viacom has invested between $750 million and $1 billion in international expansion. "We're not taking our foot off the accelerator," one Viacom executive states.

Viacom's two main weapons are Nickelodeon and MTV. Nickelodeon has been a global powerhouse, expanding to every continent but Antarctica in 1996 and 1997 and offering programming in several languages. It is already a world leader in children's television, reaching 90 million TV households in 70 countries other than the United States--where it can be seen in 68 million households and completely dominates children's television.

MTV is the preeminent global music television channel, available in 250 million homes worldwide and in scores of nations. In 1996 Viacom announced further plans to "significantly expand" its global operations. MTV has used new digital technologies to make it possible to customize programming inexpensively for different regions and nations around the world.

Viacom selected holdings
Thirteen U.S. television stations;
A 50 percent interest in the U.S. UPN television network with Chris-Craft Industries;
U.S. and global cable television networks, including MTV, M2, VH1, Nickelodeon, Showtime, TVLand and Paramount Networks;
A 50 percent interest in Comedy Central channel (with Time Warner);
Film, video and television production, including Paramount Pictures;
50 percent stake in United Cinemas International, one of the world's three largest theater companies;
Blockbuster Video and Music stores, the world's largest video rental stores;
Book publishing, including Simon & Schuster, Scribners and Macmillan;
Five theme parks.

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News Corporation
$10 billion - 1996 sales

The News Corporation is often identified with its head, Rupert Murdoch, whose family controls some 30 percent of its stock. Murdoch's goal is for News Corporation to own multiple forms of programming--news, sports, films and children's shows--and beam them via satellite or TV stations to homes in the United States, Europe, Asia and South America. Viacom CEO Sumner Redstone says of Murdoch that "he basically wants to conquer the world."

And he seems to be doing it. Redstone, Disney CEO Michael Eisner, and Time Warner CEO Gerald Levin have each commented that Murdoch is the one media executive they most respect and fear, and the one whose moves they study. TCI's John Malone states that global media vertical integration is all about trying to catch Rupert. Time Warner executive Ted Turner views Murdoch in a more sinister fashion, having likened him to Adolf Hitler.

After establishing News Corporation in his native Australia, Murdoch entered the British market in the 1960s and by the 1980s had become a dominant force in the U.S. market. News Corporation went heavily into debt to subsidize its purchase of Twentieth Century Fox and the formation of the Fox television network in the 1980s; by the mid-1990s News Corporation had eliminated much of that debt.

News Corporation operates in nine different media on six continents. Its 1995 revenues were distributed relatively evenly among filmed entertainment (26 percent), newspapers (24 percent), television (21 percent), magazines (14 percent) and book publishing (12 percent). News Corporation has been masterful in utilizing its various properties for cross-promotional purposes, and at using its media power to curry influence with public officials worldwide. "Murdoch seems to have Washington in his back pocket," observed one industry analyst after News Corporation received another favorable ruling (New York Times, 7/26/96). The only media sector in which News Corporation lacks a major presence is music, but it has a half-interest in the Channel V music television channel in Asia.

Although News Corporation earned 70 percent of its 1995 income in the United States, its plan for global expansion looks to continental Europe, Asia and Latin America, areas where growth is expected to be greatest for commercial media. Until around 2005, Murdoch expects the surest profits in the developed world, especially Europe and Japan. News Corporation is putting most of its eggs in the basket of television, specifically digital satellite television. It plans to draw on its experience in establishing the most profitable satellite television system in the world, the booming British Sky Broadcasting (BSkyB). News Corporation can also use its U.S. Fox television network to provide programming for its nascent satellite ventures. News Corporation is spending billions of dollars to establish these systems around the world; although the risk is considerable, if only a few of them establish monopoly or duopoly positions the entire project should prove lucrative.

News Corporation selected holdings
The U.S. Fox broadcasting network;
Twenty-two U.S. television stations, the largest U.S. station group, covering over 40 percent of U.S. TV households;
Fox News Channel;
A 50 percent stake (with TCI's Liberty Media) in several U.S. and global cable networks, including fx, fxM and Fox Sports Net;
50 percent stake in Fox Kids Worldwide, production studio and owner of U.S. cable Family Channel;
Ownership or major interests in satellite services reaching Europe, U.S., Asia, and Latin America, often under the Sky Broadcasting brand;
Twentieth Century Fox, a major film, television and video production center, which has a library of over 2,000 films to exploit;
Some 132 newspapers (primarily in Australia, Britain and the United States, including the London Times and the New York Post), making it one of the three largest newspaper groups in the world;
Twenty-five magazines, most notably TV Guide;
Book publishing interests, including HarperCollins;
Los Angeles Dodgers baseball team.

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Sony
$9 billion - 1997 sales (media only)

Sony's media holdings are concentrated in music (the former CBS records) and film and television production (the former Columbia Pictures), each of which it purchased in 1989. Music accounts for about 60 percent of Sony's media income and film and television production account for the rest. Sony is a dominant entertainment producer, and its media sales are expected to surpass $9 billion in 1997. It also has major holdings in movie theaters in joint venture with Seagram. As Sony's media activities seem divorced from its other extensive activities--Sony expects $50 billion in company-wide sales in 1997--there is ongoing speculation that it will sell its valuable production studios to vertically integrated chains that can better exploit them.

Sony was foiled in its initial attempts to find synergies between hardware and software, but it anticipates that digital communication will provide the basis for new synergies. Sony hopes to capitalize upon its vast copyrighted library of films, music and TV programs to leap to the front of the digital video disc market, where it is poised to be one of the two global leaders with Matsushita. Sony also enjoys a 25 percent share of the multi-billion-dollar video games industry; with the shift to digital formats these games can now be converted into channels in digital television systems.


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TCI
$7 billion - 1996 sales

TCI (Tele-Communications Inc.) is smaller than the other firms in the first tier, but its unique position in the media industry has made it a central player in the global media system. TCI's foundation is its dominant position as the second biggest U.S. cable television system provider. C.E.O. John Malone, who has effective controlling interest over TCI, has been able to use the steady cash influx from the lucrative semi-monopolistic cable business to build an empire.

Malone understands the importance of the U.S. cable base to bankroll TCI's expansion; in 1995 and 1996 he bought several smaller cable systems to consolidate TCI's hold on the U.S. cable market. TCI faces a direct and potentially very damaging challenge to its U.S. market share from digital satellite broadcasting. It is responding by converting its cable systems to digital format so as to increase channel capacity to 200. TCI is also using its satellite spin-off to position itself in the rival satellite business and retain some of the 15 to 20 million Americans expected to switch from cable broadcasting to satellite broadcasting by 2000. In addition to owning two satellites valued at $600 million, TCI holds a 21 percent stake in Primestar, a U.S. satellite television joint venture with the other leading U.S. cable companies, News Corporation and General Electric, which already had 1.2 million subscribers in l996.

TCI has used its control of cable systems to acquire equity stakes in many of the cable channels that need to be carried over TCI to be viable. TCI has significant interests in Discovery, QVC, Fox Sports Net, Court TV, E!, Home Shopping Network and Black Entertainment TV, among others. In 1996, TCI negotiated the right to purchase a 20 percent stake in News Corporation's new Fox News Channel in return for access to TCI systems. Through its subsidiary Liberty Media, TCI has interests in 91 U.S. program services.

Nor does TCI restrict its investments to cable channels and content producers. It has a 10 percent stake in Time Warner as well as a 20 percent stake in Silver King Communications, where former Fox network builder Barry Diller is putting together another U.S. television network.

TCI has applied its expansionist strategy to the global as well as domestic media market. On the one hand, TCI develops its core cable business and has become the global leader in cable systems, with strong units in Britain, Japan and Chile. Merrill Lynch estimates that TCI International's cable base outside of the United States will increase from 3 million subscribers in 1995 to 10 million in 1999.

On the other hand, TCI uses its cable resources to invest across all global media and to engage in numerous non-cable joint ventures. "When you are the largest cable operator in the world," a TCI executive states, "people find a way to do business with you." It already has 30 media deals outside of the United States, including a venture with Sega Enterprises to launch computer game channels, a joint venture with News Corporation for a global sports channel, and a 10 percent stake in Sky Latin America.


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Universal (Seagram)
$7 billion - 1997 sales

Effectively controlled by the Bronfman family, the global beverage firm Seagram purchased Universal (then MCA) from Matsushita for $5.7 billion in 1995. Matsushita was unable to make a success of MCA and had refused to go along with MCA executives who had wanted to acquire CBS in the early l990s. Universal is expected to account for approximately half of Seagram's $14 billion in sales in 1997.

Over half of Universal's income is generated by the Universal Studios' production of films and television programs. Universal is also a major music producer and book publisher and operates several theme parks. As many of the broadcast networks and cable channels vertically integrate with production companies, Universal has fewer options for sales and is less secure in its future. It owns the cable USA Network and the Sci-Fi Network, after buying out its uneasy partner Viacom.


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NBC (GE)
$5 billion - 1996 sales

General Electric is one of the leading electronics and manufacturing firms in the world with nearly $80 billion in sales in 1996. Its operations have become increasingly global, with non-U.S. revenues increasing from 20 percent of the total in 1985 to 38 percent in 1995, and an expected 50 percent in 2000. Although NBC currently constitutes only a small portion of GE's total activity, after years of rapid growth it is considered to be the core of GE's strategy for long-term global growth.

NBC owns U.S. television and radio networks and 11 television stations. It has been aggressive in expanding into cable, where it now owns several cable channels outright, like CNBC, as well as shares in some 20 other channels, including the A&E network. The most dramatic expression of GE's media-centered strategy is its 1996 alliance and joint investment with Microsoft to produce the cable news channel MSNBC, along with a complementary on-line service. From this initial $500 million investment, NBC and Microsoft plan to expand MSNBC quickly into a global news channel, followed perhaps by a global entertainment and sports channel. NBC and Microsoft are also developing a series of TV channels in Europe aimed at computer users.


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The Second Tier
Below the global giants in the media food chain is a second tier of corporations that fill regional or niche markets. Some of these firms are as large as the smaller global companies, but lack their world-wide reach. A few second-tier companies may attempt, through aggressive mergers and acquisitions of like-sized firms, to become full-blown first-tier global media giants; others will likely be swallowed by larger companies amassing ever greater empires.

U.S.
Westinghouse $5 billion
Advance Publications $4.9 billion
Gannett $4.0 billion
Cox Enterprises $3.8 billion
Times-Mirror $3.5 billion
Comcast $3.4 billion
McGraw Hill $3 billion
Reader's Digest $3 billion
Knight-Ridder $2.9 billion
Dow Jones $2.5 billion
New York Times Co. $2.5 billion
Tribune Co. $2.2 billion
Hearst $2 billion
Washington Post Co. $1.8 billion
Cablevision $1.1 billion
DirecTV (Owned by General Motors)
DreamWorks
Canada
Thomson $7.3 billion
Rogers Communications $2 billion
Hollinger
Latin America
Cisneros Group (Venezuela) $3.2 billion
Globo (Brazil) $2.2 billion
Clarin (Argentina) $1.2 billion
Televisa (Mexico) $1.2 billion
Europe
Havas (France) $8.8 billion
Reed Elsevier (Britain/Netherlands) $5.5 billion
EMI (Britain) $5.4 billion
Hachette (France) $5.3 billion
Reuters (Britain) $4.1 billion
Kirch Group (Germany) $4 billion
Granada Group (Britain) $3.6 billion
BBC (Britain) $3.5 billion
Axel Springer (Germany) $3 billion
Canal Plus (France) $3 billion
CLT (Luxembourg) $3 billion
Pearson PLC (Britain) $2.9 billion
United News & Media (Britain) $2.9 billion
Carlton Communications (Britain) $2.5 billion
Mediaset (Italy) $2 billion
Kinnevik (Sweden) $1.8 billion
Television Francais 1 (France) $1.8 billion
Verlagsgruppe Bauer (Germany) $1.7 billion
Wolters Kluwer (Netherlands) $1.7 billion
RCS Editori Spa (Italy) $1.6 billion
VNU (Netherlands) $1.4 billion
Prisa Group (Spain)
Antena 3 (Spain)
CEP Communications (France)
Asia/Pacific
NHK (Japan) $5.6 billion
Fuji Television (Japan) $2.6 billion
Nippon Television Network (Japan) $2.2 billion
Cheil Jedang (Korea) $2.1 billion
Tokyo Broadcasting System (Japan) $2.1 billion
Modi (India) $2 billion
Asahi National Broadcasting Co. (Japan) $1.6 billion
Toho Company (Japan) $1.6 billion
PBL (Australia) $750 million
TVB International (China)
Chinese Entertainment Television (China)
Asia Broadcasting and Communica-tions Network (Thailand)
ABS-CBN (Philippines)
Doordarshan (India)
Chinese Central Television (China)
Most sales figures are for 1996, but some are as early as 1993.

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Mirandee
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posted November 13, 2004 11:53 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
While the "value voters" blame the liberal Democrats for the decaying morality in this country they should consider this:

The largest polluters of our communication and media environment are Time/Warner, Disney, Viacom and CBS. Disney in fact makes part of it billions of dollars every year by it's investment in porno film companies.

These companies are not Democrat supporters but instead dump loads of money into Republican campaigns. Money that was largely earned in the promotion and distribution of pornography. Parents have been complaining that some of Disney's liking of porno has filtered over into the movies they make for children. Ronald Reagan's deregulation policies have made billions and billions of dollars for corporations but what does the American and world public get? Garbage in the media and porn dumped on us. We get propaganda news stations.

http://www.moralityinmedia.org/index.htm?mediaIssues/timewarn.htm

Time Warner Still a Major Cultural Polluter


By Robert Peters
President of Morality in Media


Time-Warner, in 1992

In October 1992, Madonna's pornographic book, "Sex," went on sale. Published by Warner Books (a subsidiary of Time Warner), the book depicted frontal nudity and simulated sex......

In response to a complaint about "Sex," Ellen Herrick of Warner Books wrote in a letter, dated 12/16/92:

"One of this country's earliest principles was the right to think and live as each individual chooses. There are many different interests, agendas and tastes in our society...It is this very diversity that gives America its strength and that allows our nation to be the beacon for freedom and democracy throughout the world."
In 1992, among other things, Time Warner also offered "cable versions" of hardcore porn flicks on cable TV systems it owned and distributed a steady flow of indecent and violent programming on HBO. In 1992, Warner Records marketed the song, "Cop Killer." In 1992, the American Family Association named Time Warner as the third leading sponsor of sex, violence and profanity on broadcast TV.


Conclusions

What I have just described is the proverbial tip of the iceberg. But in listing some of Time Warner's many sins, I do not mean to imply that Time Warner is the only offender. The cultural sewage that emanates from New York City and Los Angeles has many, many contributors, including CBS (home of radio and TV's preeminent garbage mouth, Howard Stern), Disney, and Viacom.
I do intend to remind citizens who are deeply concerned about our nation's growing "moral crisis" that Time Warner is still also a major source of cultural pollution.


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ozonefiller
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posted November 14, 2004 12:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Like trying to argue with a "double-edged" sword to me!

So there!

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LibraSparkle
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posted November 14, 2004 12:23 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
and Disney in fact makes part of it billions of dollars every year by it's investment in porno film companies.

In October 1992, Madonna's pornographic book, "Sex," went on sale. Published by Warner Books (a subsidiary of Time Warner), the book depicted frontal nudity and simulated sex......

*shrugs* So? Do you have an issue with sexuality? Time Warner does not need to be held to Christian Ideals.

I don't see anything wrong with it. This is America. We are free to choose what we read. Don't like it? Don't buy the book. Don't support Time Warner. No need to promote censorship. People should be free to do as they please, whether or not you agree with it.

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ozonefiller
Newflake

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posted November 14, 2004 12:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey, second oldest profession in the world and will always be the #1 biggest money maker of all time!

Isn't it interesting that the Bull always symbalises money and Taurus is ruled by Venus? Both goes hand in hand!

I agree with you LS, freedom of expression should only go as far as the individual permitting it and NOT buy mass government ideals, no matter who's interests! Our economy would collapse if otherwise!

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LibraSparkle
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posted November 14, 2004 12:35 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Never heard anything about the Bull symbolizing $$ ... interesting

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LibraSparkle
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posted November 14, 2004 12:39 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
P.S.

I own that book

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ozonefiller
Newflake

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posted November 14, 2004 12:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
AWWWW LS, you never heard of the "Bullish Market"?

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LibraSparkle
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posted November 14, 2004 12:46 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nope. Googled it though. Don't know much about Wall Street stuff.

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ozonefiller
Newflake

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posted November 14, 2004 01:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well the investers say that we're in a "Bullish Market", but it looks like to me that we're in more of a "Bearish" one!

Maybe it's only "Bullish" to some!

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LibraSparkle
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posted November 14, 2004 01:05 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bullish ... Bullsh!t ... whatever

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ozonefiller
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posted November 14, 2004 01:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

I think that some have some Bullsh*t to Bear!

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Rainbow~
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posted November 14, 2004 01:23 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Libra <^>

Mirandee said....

quote:
While the "value voters" blame the liberal Democrats for the decaying morality in this country they should consider this:
The largest polluters of our communication and media environment are Time/Warner, Disney, Viacom and CBS. Disney in fact makes part of it billions of dollars every year by it's investment in porno film companies.

Libra said:

quote:
*shrugs* So? Do you have an issue with sexuality? Time Warner does not need to be held to Christian Ideals.


Libra hon, don't assume Mirandee (once again, I'm speaking for her...but she's obviously not here now ...so I gotta put my two cents in) was being some kind of porn censor......

I think she was trying to point out the hyprocrocy of the Republicans and the claim that Bush and his Holy Christian Followers won because of "moral values."

If moral values (as they see them) was really such a big issue with them....wouldn't you think they'd REFUSE to take all the "support" from these big corporations, some of whom make big contributions to the Republican Party with money earned from porn?

Good Lord! How are Falwell and Robertson gonna weasel out of that one?

Hypocrites; all!

Love,
Rainbow

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ozonefiller
Newflake

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posted November 14, 2004 01:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How did Swaggart and Bakker weasel out of they're dilemmas?

Jim Bakker is still doing time for what he did to Jessica Hahn and Jimmy Swaggart cried on national TV about his little deamons and then remained quiet and everybody forgot about it!

Actaully I think that Jim Bakker finally got out of jail, I think I heard something about that, but he sure did pay for his sins anyway!

Either way, it just goes to show that the church is a great cover up when caught breaking the law, even with the pseudo churches!

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Mirandee
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posted November 14, 2004 02:41 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Religion in itself is good, that is true religion and not these cults, it's some of the people in religions that are bad.

People forget that evil always disguises itself as good. But you can tell. Any religion that wants power and control is not of God. You can be sure if it was Roman Catholic Church doing what Falwell and Robinson are doing people would be screaming their heads off. Falwell and Robinson would be screaming the loudest.

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LibraSparkle
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posted November 14, 2004 03:07 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Rainbow

I do see that point. I agree with the fact that they are the hypocrites of the Republican party. It was the way it was presented that I was responding to. It was basically like...

Mirandee: Porn Bad

Libra: ... eh... I kinda like it sometimes.

Mirandee,

I disagree about religion. Spirituality, to me, is a very personal decision. I don't believe there is a hierarchy to The Divine, or that there is any one truth. Religion has always been the leading cause of war. It's almost like an addiction (IMO).

I, personally, believe our society would be much better off without religion. Religion is archaic to me.

"People forget that evil always disguises itself as good."

But, whatever... to each his own. I'm not going to look down upon anyone who doesn't agree with that.

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Atlantic Myst
unregistered
posted January 20, 2005 04:47 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Religion has always been the leading cause of war.


WHAT A CROCK OF SH*T

------------------
~*~ Cusp: Gemini/Cancer, Cancer rising, Taurus moon ~*~


Let's go...


"I loved all who were positive in the event of my demise".

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