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Author Topic:   This why we couldn't stress hard enough about "separation between 'Church and State'"
ozonefiller
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posted December 12, 2004 09:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sexual Abuse in the Amish Community
Woman Endured Childhood of Repeated Rape by Her Brothers

Dec. 10 — The Amish community is a mysterious world within modern America, a place frozen in another time. The Amish live without automobiles or electricity. Education ends at the eighth grade and life largely centers on farming, family and faith.

"I would read books and I'd imagine. I had a great imagination that would take me to faraway places, you know, places where I was afraid I would never be, but wanted to be," she told "20/20's" Elizabeth Vargas.


Mary says she'd use those fantasies as an emotional escape from what she says was her horrible reality — a childhood and adolescence of sexual assault and rape.


"If somebody was raping me, I'd look up to the ceiling, count the blocks or count the cracks in the wall, or just I was completely not there emotionally. I would have committed suicide many times over if I wouldn't be strong," she said.


Through the years, by Mary's account, she was raped by several different attackers. But one abused her more often than the others — her brother Johnny. Johnny, one of Mary's eight brothers, began assaulting her when he was 12 and she was 6. The assaults continued into her teen years, she said.

"I couldn't go to the outhouse because there was always somebody waiting there. I couldn't go anywhere alone. There was just no place I could be alone," she said.

As time passed, another brother, Eli, followed suit.


"He'd rape me down in the milk house when I was cleaning up the milk house. He'd rape me down in the barn," she said.


The violence in Mary's family began with the head of it — a stepfather who, she says, continually beat both Mary and her brothers.

"He hit them with shovels and hacksaws, fists, halters, anything and everything he could get his hands on," she said.


A Community of Submission

Irene Garrett left the Amish community to marry an outsider and has written several books on Amish life. Sadly, Garrett says, Mary's plight is not an isolated case.

"Overall in an Amish community, women are very quiet, they're very submissive," Garrett said.

Amish women are not taught anything about sex, according to Garrett, which makes it even harder for a girl who's being abused to describe what's happening to her.

Mary said she didn't know how to describe what was happening. "I thought they were being bad to me. That was the only word I had to express it," she said.


In an Amish culture unaccustomed to women speaking up, Mary felt she got more scolding than sympathy when she told her mother what was going on.


She said her mother told her, "You don't fight hard enough and you don't pray hard enough." Mary said her mother made her feel as if the assaults were her fault. "Every time I would talk about this she would say that they have already confessed in church and you're just being unforgiving," she said.

Indeed, Mary's brothers had confessed in church. In this closed society problems are handled internally, the church elders are both judge and jury.

And the punishment might be surprising to outsiders.

"The Amish emphasize the simplicity of life, plainness of life. They accentuate several themes, such as pacifism, the importance of community," said Donald Kraybill, professor of sociology at Elizabethtown college and author of "The Riddle of Amish Culture."

"They feel that the use of force, even legal force, even filing a lawsuit is outside the spirit of Christ, and outside the spirit of Christian faith," according to Kraybill.

Kraybill said punishment for individuals who confess to offenses — regardless of the seriousness — are banned from church activities for six weeks and only restored to full membership in their community if they are truly penitent.

"The Amish church has a very strong emphasis on first of all, the importance of confession, public confession, if you transgress the teaching, but secondly forgiveness for that and then forgetting it, and letting it go," Kraybill said.

"The funny thing is that they view drinking alcohol until you puke as bad a sin as raping somebody. They get the same punishment for either one," Mary said.

But Amish-style punishment was not going to bring Mary the justice she wanted. And for her, the final straw came when she suspected a younger brother, David, was molesting their 4-year-old sister.

Mary Breaks With Community and Brings in Outside Authorities

Mary recalled, "She said to me, 'You know, Mary, David is bad to me.'" Mary said her sister told her their mom, Sally Kempf, said she shouldn't talk about it and that she should forgive her brother.


So, Mary did something that drew more shock from her community than the sins of her brothers. She called authorities outside the Amish community, and she let them use her to gather evidence against her own brothers. She visited her brother Johnny wearing a wire and he admitted freely that he had sexually abused her.


Don Henry from the Vernon County, Wis., Sheriff's Department said he had enough evidence to make an arrest in the case. When he spoke with Johnny, he freely admitted to raping her. The only question was how many times, according to Henry.


Henry said, "He wanted to know how many times she had said, and with him alone she said it happened between 100 and 150 times. He thought it was too many and that he thought it was between 50 and 75 times."


Greg Lunde, Eli's lawyer, said Eli admitted to more assaults than Mary had alleged. " I think Mary's allegations against Eli were 12 or 13 times. By Eli's own admission, it was 15 or 16." David also confessed to authorities.


All three brothers pleaded guilty.


David, charged with second-degree sexual assault of a child, was sentenced to four years in prison. Eli, charged with second-degree sexual assault of a child, and with a prior misdemeanor conviction on his record, was given eight years in prison. Johnny Byler's sentencing brought out the largest crowd — and the most tears — not in support of Mary, but in support of the confessed rapist.


The community's reaction did not go unnoticed by the judge in the case, Michael Rosbrough. "The thought occurred to me," he said, "How many of you have ever cried for Mary Byler? … You may have prayed for her, I don't doubt you have, but how many of you cried for her? For the loss of her childhood."


Victim Is Viewed as Villain


The community viewed Mary, not Johnny, as the villain, because they had already punished Johnny within the church, according to Garrett. "He went through that process. He was sorry for what he had done, so to the Amish he was forgiven and it should be forgotten," she said.


Ironically, Johnny, who raped Mary first and most often, got the lightest sentence. Now married and with children of his own, he was given 10 years' probation. For the first year he can work in the Amish community during the day but must spend every night in the county jail.

The Vernon County court also sentenced Mary's mother to two years probation for failure to protect her daughter. Her stepfather was sentenced to 18 months probation for battery and disorderly conduct.


Garrett says Mary's case may strike people as particularly startling because the public has an idealized perception of Amish life. "It's like any other society. You have great families, very well balanced, but you also have dysfunctional ones. Take the Amish off the pedestal. They're just like everybody else," she said.


Mary has not lived in the Amish community for nine months. Her life's now got some distinctly not-Amish trappings — a driver's license, a smoking habit, a G.E.D., and a job at Wal-Mart.

She says her life now has not only new pleasures but new responsibilities.

And she's on a mission to help other abuse victims, in and out of the Amish community.

"If somebody, some girl or some boy or some child who's being hurt by somebody, would get some good out of this story. That would make me feel really good," Mary said.

Also, for Mary, there's an ironic carry-over from her former life an abiding faith. She said, "I feel like God helps those who help themselves. You know, there's a verse in the Bible to that effect, and I really believe it's true, because, you know what, if you don't have the strength to stand up for yourself, there's really not much he can do for you."

For More Information about Irene Garrett's work, visit this Web site:


http://www.ruthirenegarrett.com/


http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=316371&page=4

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quiksilver
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posted December 12, 2004 12:05 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

While it is an awful, awful thing that has happened to this girl, I do not see exactly how it fits into the separation of church and state argument. You may think I am being difficult here but these people (the Amish) chose to live in isolation because they have that freedom to do so. As long as people have such a freedom, both good and bad things will happen as a result of the choices that people make. People can also choose to get out of such situations, as this girl did when she reported what was going on to the authorities. The perpetrators were then punished under the terms of the law, also established by the people. It is the people of the land who are reponsible for their actions, not religion. Religions are comprised of a set of ideas or beliefs which are put forth by people, for better or worse. People are given the gift of reason (for the most part) to determine whether or not such a set of ideas or beliefs appeal to them. I have argued this in many threads elsewhere but I again reiterate that religions are structured by people and in and of themselves do not have the power to force us to do anything against our will or behave in a way any other than how we personally see fit to behave in the first place. This concept governing church law is applicable to state law as well, and given the nature of this concept, it seems that there will never be true separation of church and state other than surface level mandates. Instead, it is left to the majority of a nation or society to determine what is right and what is wrong, what is considered punishable by law, etc. If anything, the separation between military and state is far greater than that of church and state. For some reason, this topic (to my knowledge) is far less discussed.

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ozonefiller
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posted December 12, 2004 03:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Unfortunately, It's due the mindset and that depravity amongst women within that community that prevents them from ever leaving and of course the fear of the unknown that always serves as a barrier that prevents those women from ever standing up against those men that have broke the LAW within this great country of ours! Six weeks without church activities for raping his sister so many times that he couldn't remember how many?! Maybe somewhere within the hundreds, maybe?! Sheeesh, I've had years without any church activities and I didn't do anything wrong, I can see how it's really hurting him!

...but in the real world, it only takes one time to do a 10 and get a 20!

Those other two suckers must know how it feels to be the females that they have raped, every single day for being a "straight eyes" behind bars! I bet they're sorry now!

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jwhop
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posted December 12, 2004 10:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

You're right quik, nothing in that story bears on the First Amendment restriction against establishing an official religion for the United States.
quote:
While it is an awful, awful thing that has happened to this girl, I do not see exactly how it fits into the separation of church and state argument.

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miss_apples
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posted December 13, 2004 12:16 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Im sorry but I see that article as being discriminative towards Amish people.

Rape and incest happens a lot...not just in conservative Amish communities.

I dont see why this article deals with seperation between church and state either. Do you think that religion condones this kind of behaviour? I think not.

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ozonefiller
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posted December 13, 2004 06:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Of course it has to do with seperation between church and state, they're whole world is base strictly of the Bible and that the words that are written in the Bible doesn't give the women the equality that they so demand that they should always have in the US. They practice this in they're communities all the time!

In fact, mostly women in the Bible(with the exeption of the two Marys and Ruth and such) were mostly considered the lowly Jezebels of the world and don't deserve the respect like that of Holy Mary.

God forbid that the men in this country started practicing the same ways, the women in this country would be protesting in Washington, before you can say the word oppression!

The only women that would find the Bible cool are lesbians, the Bible is only against Homosexuality amongst men, not women, if you want to go word from word about it.

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Eleanore
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posted December 13, 2004 06:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think the reference to "separation of church and state" is applicable in the sense that within the Amish community church and state, that is to say, religion and law, are one and the same.
quote:
"They feel that the use of force, even legal force, even filing a lawsuit is outside the spirit of Christ, and outside the spirit of Christian faith," according to Kraybill.
Kraybill said punishment for individuals who confess to offenses — regardless of the seriousness — are banned from church activities for six weeks and only restored to full membership in their community if they are truly penitent.
"The Amish church has a very strong emphasis on first of all, the importance of confession, public confession, if you transgress the teaching, but secondly forgiveness for that and then forgetting it, and letting it go," Kraybill said.

It's rather easy to see when you realize that when the actual U.S. government authorities got involved (who are not ruled by priests/religious leaders, etc. and who do not all subscribe to any one religion as a part of their professional lives) the matter of what these particular Christians believe did not stop our laws from being enforced. Which is why the rapists were charged, etc.
I don't see how the article relates to separation of church and state in the U.S. as a whole. Thankfully, we don't have one established religion forced down our throats so that, even though some are free to believe that rape is okay as long as you "confess and repent" we are all still entitled to protections guaranteed to us legally, that is, by man's laws and not by "God's laws" whatever those may be to us individually.
By the by, I don't think the article was being discriminatory towards the Amish. I think it was being forthright in establishing them as people just like everybody else, with good and bad aspects to the different individuals that make up the community like anywhere else in the world, not like the romanticized "perfect people" that some more modernized people tend to believe.
quote:
Garrett says Mary's case may strike people as particularly startling because the public has an idealized perception of Amish life. "It's like any other society. You have great families, very well balanced, but you also have dysfunctional ones. Take the Amish off the pedestal. They're just like everybody else," she said.

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"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Ghandi

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ozonefiller
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posted December 13, 2004 07:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No, I didn't mean that America as a whole when it comes to that of
separation of church and state Eleanore.

Can you imagin what would happen with women in this country if that came about, every man in this country would end up on the floor and the population rate in this country would crash from abstinence in the marriages!

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miss_apples
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posted December 14, 2004 01:45 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ozone have you read the bible? Im not Christian, I am a pagan, but I have read the bible and have never got the impression that women were considered scum. I guess its how you look at it.

People who take any religious scripture as a message that they can rape women or that they can kill over religious differences is not truly following their religion correctly in my opinion. So these Amish men who raped this woman are not true Christians in my opinion.

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ozonefiller
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posted December 14, 2004 08:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If any of them were true Christains that really follow the laws of the Bible, anybody that committed any of those acts would be getting more then just six weeks without church activities!

In fact, the Amish are the very Socialists that JW just so highly despises!

According to they're laws, they should have been stoned to death for adultry and fornication, by they're community in general!

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miss_apples
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posted December 15, 2004 02:56 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Now if they did stone he guy for what he did you would be posting about how barbaric that is wouldnt you.

Granted I do think they were a little light on him, but I still dont think its fair to blame religion for this. Church activities are important to them on a different level. Being banned from the church is something very shameful in their culture.

I understand, Im sure if a lot of people were banned from church activities we'd be saying "YAY..NO BORING CHURCH FOR 6 WHOLE WEEKS!!!!"

LOL!

But like I said, it means something different to them.

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ozonefiller
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posted December 16, 2004 02:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Now if they did stone he guy for what he did you would be posting about how barbaric that is wouldnt you.

Of course I would complain about any stoning, but that's not what I'm asking for, I'm just asking for ALL the criminals to do the time that is sought to be fit for they're crimes and 6 weeks without entering a church is not my idea of punishment!

I believe that no matter what, you live in this country, you follow the laws in this country just like everbody else in this country, no matter what your beliefs!

There's only one religion in this country that is almost beyond belief when it comes to crime and punishment and that's the American Indians beliefs, they castrate men like this that rape a woman even once I believe! They maim the man for the rest of his life, just like he maimed her!

At least that is what I've heard of.

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miss_apples
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posted December 16, 2004 11:56 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh I completly agree that if you live in this country you have to abide my the laws and have to face the punishment if you break one, I totally agree with that. Also by the article the guy did get punished by the law as well as his community.

I just dont feel like you can blame religion for this incident, thats all.

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Eleanore
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posted December 23, 2004 10:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I personally wouldn't blame religion in and of itself for this tragedy. However, I do see that union of religion and law in this particular community was and perhaps still is a breeding ground for abusive behavior being tolerated more than in the average American society. Not because of their particular religion, but because of their specific belief that "force, even legal force" is outside the spirit of their faith. Thus, our actual country's laws are not generally turned to in cases such as this. There is a reason that the laws of the U.S. go far beyond "confess and repent" and be banned for 6 weeks for a crime. This particular victim suffered years of sexual abuse at the hands of her family members. Their lack of education in regards to sexual matters compounds the problem in the community itself simply because, no matter where you go, there is always the chance that some demented person is going to desire to molest a child. I'm sorry, but the idea that by simply confessing and repenting and being banned from your community for 6 weeks justice has been served in a case like this is appalling and sick. The abuser's wrist won't even sting, much less make him refrain from commiting abuse in the future. Rapists are psychologically disturbed. Even if they are going to be given treatment for their mental issues they, at the very least, need to be kept away from society for more than 6 weeks.
I'm thankful, once again, that one particular religious group's beliefs don't dictate all our laws in the U.S.

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"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Ghandi

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