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Author
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Topic: Books
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Yin
Knowflake Posts: 1951
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 09, 2005 09:20 AM
  
quote:
Alabama Bill Would Prohibit Gay Books in LibrariesA bill introduced February 1 by Alabama State Rep. Gerald Allen (R-Cottondale) seeks to prohibit public libraries, schools, and universities from purchasing books or other materials that promote gay culture or feature gay characters. HB30 would make it a Class A misdemeanor to purchase, produce, or promote “printed or electronic materials or activities that sanction, recognize, foster, or promote a lifestyle or actions prohibited by the sodomy and sexual misconduct laws of the state.”
Allen had announced the bill at a press conference last November, two months before the legislative session began, explaining that his intent was to remove from library shelves any novel with a gay protagonist or any college textbook that suggests homosexuality is natural. “I guess we dig a big hole and dump them in and bury them,” he said in the December 1 Birmingham News. University of Alabama Associate Theater Professor Peder Melhuse said in the January 10 Crimson White campus newspaper that he doubted the bill would pass, but “if it did go through, I would certainly go out of my way to choose and vote for [productions] that went right in the face of the law.” The bill contains language asserting that it is not a “prior restraint of the First Amendment protected speech” since it applies only to public institutions “in the use of public funds and public facilities.” It also makes its provisions severable, meaning that if any part of the law is declared invalid or unconstitutional, other parts would not be affected. Posted February 4, 2005.
ALA News IP: Logged |
Harpyr
Newflake Posts: 0
From: Alaska
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted February 09, 2005 11:21 AM
How sad.. Another case of the regressive right wanting to undermine free speech.... IP: Logged |
proxieme
unregistered
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posted February 09, 2005 12:09 PM
Did ya'll hear about the Buster flap?
http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/26/education.secretary.pbs.ap/ http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2005-01-30-buster-controversy_x.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A40188-2005Jan26?language=printer
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Yin
Knowflake Posts: 1951
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 09, 2005 12:38 PM
quote:
The not-yet-aired episode of "Postcards From Buster" shows the title character, an animated bunny named Buster, on a trip to Vermont -- a state known for recognizing same-sex civil unions. The episode features two lesbian couples, although the focus is on farm life and maple sugaring.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/26/education.secretary.pbs.ap/  Postcards From Buster: Cartoon bunny meets a little girl's mother and the mother's lesbian partner in Vermont.
WGBH/ 2004 Cookie Jar Entertainment Yep, very dangerous material for young minds indeed.  Or maybe if the kids knew that gay people EXISTED and are PEOPLE like them they wouldn't grow up to be so PBH (prejudice beyond help.)
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jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 09, 2005 01:12 PM
Good, I hope the Alabama bill passes. Teaching a homosexual lifestyle in schools flies in the face of Alabama citizens rights to not have their children indoctrinated in a lifestyle they believe attacks the institution of heterosexual marriage. Further, having this lifestyle taught to children by an institution of government raises the status of the issue, giving it legitimacy since the children are being taught by authority figures....authority figures diametrically opposed to their parents rights and interests in shaping the moral values of their own children.If anything at all, schools...at all levels should be silent on the issue, neither promoting nor degrading the concept. Perhaps one day....when schools actually do their jobs by teaching children to read, write, add, subtract, divide, multiply, oh and speak the English language, they can branch off into other aspects of education...emphasis on education, not indoctrination. The teaching of homosexual lifestyles also flies in the face of state laws which forbid homosexual acts. What kind of lunacy teaches and promotes acts which are illegal under state law? As for PBS, I have written several letters to my Congressman and Senators calling for an immediate halt to any federal funding for their operations. Not because of this issue but for the basic reason that those who enjoy PBS programming should be prepared to pay for it. Perhaps it would be different if PBS was politically neutral but no one who has ever suffered through any of their news or so called education formats could come away with that impression. Bill Moyers springs immediately to mind. There are no issues of free speech involved. Anyone wishing to speak freely about the glories of homosexual marriage or the gay lifestyle in general can take their soapbox to the town square and have at it. Just don't expect those who oppose the concept to fund their propaganda and especially when that propaganda is aimed directly at the children of those who oppose it. IP: Logged |
Yin
Knowflake Posts: 1951
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 09, 2005 02:10 PM
quote:
Perhaps one day....when schools actually do their jobs by teaching children to read, write, add, subtract, divide, multiply, oh and speak the English language, they can branch off into other aspects of education...emphasis on education, not indoctrination.
JWHop, I thought you had more trust in the US education system. My mistake. quote:
There are no issues of free speech involved. Anyone wishing to speak freely about the glories of homosexual marriage or the gay lifestyle in general can take their soapbox to the town square and have at it.
I'm sorry, what do you mean by that? Maybe I'll learn something new today  Other than that, if Alabama doesn't do anything about it, Alabama deserves to get the bill passed. IMO
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jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 09, 2005 02:52 PM
quote:
JWHop, I thought you had more trust in the US education system. My mistake.
Surely, you jest Yin. Graduates of the public school system who receive even an adequate education do so in spite of the public school systems, not because of them.I am solidly in favor of school vouchers to assist in private education of children. Education designed to remove students from a so called educational environment that fails to rise to the level of mediocre baby-sitting. quote:
There are no issues of free speech involved. Anyone wishing to speak freely about the glories of homosexual marriage or the gay lifestyle in general can take their soapbox to the town square and have at it.
quote:
I'm sorry, what do you mean by that?
I think my intent was made clear that speak is the operative word.  IP: Logged |
Yin
Knowflake Posts: 1951
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 09, 2005 03:14 PM
I sure learned something new today. Soapbox. But I still believe kids should be educated about homosexuality. In the most appropriate form that is. And I feel that an educational cartoon can do the job. BTW Did your kids go to public schools? IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 09, 2005 03:56 PM
Glad you learned something...as long as you took away the concept that "soapbox", as I used it, denotes a portable speakers platform. A very small speakers platform  quote:
But I still believe kids should be educated about homosexuality. In the most appropriate form that is. And I feel that an educational cartoon can do the job.
I couldn't disagree with you more...if you're speaking of education about homosexuality in the school systems. Frankly, that's beyond the scope of education, as envisioned by the vast majority of parents. Further, if the public school systems cannot be trusted to teach academic subjects, and they've proven they cannot, they have no business what so ever delving into moral or values education.My children went to private schools grades 1-8, then to Claremont High School, the highest ranked high school in California, academically. Since fallen to number 6, statewide.
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maya-v
unregistered
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posted February 09, 2005 04:03 PM
Hey jwhop - do you contradict everything you hear? I came to this post, expecting to see input form you and sure as he** - it was right there! Not that I have anything against free speech and freedom of expression - just that it seems to happen so often!You were right abt AM on certain things but seriously, why do you take such a strong stand against anything unconventional or out of the ordinary? IP: Logged |
Yin
Knowflake Posts: 1951
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 09, 2005 04:14 PM
Well, aren't you a proud father! I haven't decided if I want my children to be educated about homosexuality at school. But when I have them (kids) I would like to be able to make the choice along with the other parents. Wow, you think that no morals and values should be taught at schools? At all? So if a kid slaps another kid across the face, their teacher is not to give them detention, or even tell them they shouldn't do that because that would be a moral lesson. Is that what you mean? However,... quote:
Currently, RE lessons vary across the country - but morals, ethics and non-religious beliefs are taught in many schools, alongside the major religious faiths.
BBC NEWSAnd if the "vast majority of parents" don't find it necessary as you said, well, I'll do my best to teach my children about homosexuality myself. IP: Logged |
Mystic Dreamz
unregistered
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posted February 09, 2005 04:32 PM
Alabama Bill Would Prohibit Gay Books in LibrariesI thought this country was great and all about free speech? Oh I'm sorry thats what they claim to be ------------------
Gemini ;) IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 09, 2005 04:53 PM
quote:
You were right abt AM on certain things but seriously, why do you take such a strong stand against anything unconventional or out of the ordinary?
Hmmm maya-v, I'm far more radical/unconventional than you would believe...Uranus in Gemini but that doesn't mean I buy into illogical, unreasonable, politically correct arguments....Mercury in Virgo Unreasonable, illogical, PC arguments don't sway me. Well reasoned, logical arguments get my attention. If you are in possession of such an argument, trot it out and respond to what I said...and not the fact that I said....something. Or, was your comment about free speech and freedom of expression just a throwaway line?
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maya-v
unregistered
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posted February 09, 2005 05:05 PM
Ahha! Not getting drawn in jwhop! Just like to visit and roam and generally be the innocent bystander in your wars ... seriously, any strong Martian aspects in your chart?IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 09, 2005 05:25 PM
quote:
And if the "vast majority of parents" don't find it necessary as you said, well, I'll do my best to teach my children about homosexuality myself.
I didn't say the vast majority of parents don't find it necessary. I said the vast majority of parents find teaching the subject to be outside the scope of public school education....as well as being opposed to their own values. quote:
But when I have them (kids) I would like to be able to make the choice along with the other parents.
I can't imagine why any parent would turn their responsibility...to teach their own children essential values...over to a failed education system that can't even teach the basics of math, language...including English, and science. Can you?
quote:
Wow, you think that no morals and values should be taught at schools? At all? So if a kid slaps another kid across the face, their teacher is not to give them detention, or even tell them they shouldn't do that because that would be a moral lesson. Is that what you mean?
That's an absurd argument you're attempting to make...and off the subject as well. Should I take that as an admission you cannot think of any reasons parents should permit their children to be propagandized by teachers at the behest of the homosexual lobby? quote:
Currently, RE lessons vary across the country - but morals, ethics and non-religious beliefs are taught in many schools, alongside the major religious faiths.
I'm not particularly interested in what is taught in British schools...nor am I responsible for the outcomes as it affects their children. They will bear the responsibility for whatever transpires. However, as a parent, I was responsible for teaching values and proper conduct to my own children. I have the best of reasons to be a proud father. IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 09, 2005 05:41 PM
There is a school of thought that says there are no innocents maya-v I don't personally buy into that line of reasoning....for a lot of reasons.Do you consider Mars in Aries a strong Martian influence? Well, if these are wars, I was mistaken. I thought it was an exchange of ideas about a wide range of subjects. IP: Logged |
BlueRoamer
Knowflake Posts: 95
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 09, 2005 05:43 PM
It appears Jwhop that you've been indoctrinated by right wing religious conservative values. And instead of being the "independent" thinking rebel that you claim to be, you just spit out the right wing christian dogma thats crammed down our throats by the media. I don't see anything unique or rebellious about your point of view, you seem completely brainwashed to me. I hope you enjoy being a pawn. Hiding the truth from people won't change their opinions in the long run. The obvious homophobic undertones of your post indicate that you, sir, fear a side of yourself that perhaps may be attracted to the same gender. Or maybe, you're already on the down low? IP: Logged |
maya-v
unregistered
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posted February 09, 2005 05:44 PM
No, sweet jwhop, you just remind me of a coconut - so tough on the outside and all that A big Hi from another mars venus conjunct in Aries in eigth house! Did you know AM is back? She is posting as Mystic Dreamz or something like that! IP: Logged |
Yin
Knowflake Posts: 1951
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 09, 2005 06:27 PM
JWHop quote:
Further, if the public school systems cannot be trusted to teach academic subjects, and they've proven they cannot, they have no business what so ever delving into moral or values education.
Yin quote:
Wow, you think that no morals and values should be taught at schools? At all? So if a kid slaps another kid across the face, their teacher is not to give them detention, or even tell them they shouldn't do that because that would be a moral lesson. Is that what you mean?
JWHop quote:
That's an absurd argument you're attempting to make...and off the subject as well. Should I take that as an admission you cannot think of any reasons parents should permit their children to be propagandized by teachers at the behest of the homosexual lobby?
Are you saying that educating kids about homosexuality is permitting them to be "propagandized by teachers at the behest of the homosexual lobby" ? It looks like you are As I said above( Please read ) - I don't know if I want my kids to be taught about homosexuality in school. But kids are being taught morals and values at school if only because there is no such thing as interacting, trying to coexist with people/kids at the same place for hours and not passing judgements or opinions that come from the person's value system. JWHop, this convo has reached the point where you simply start attacking and changing the subject and trying to put words in the mouth of your opponent(s). You don't seem to understand the difference between education and propaganda. Look it up. IP: Logged |
ozonefiller
Newflake Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Aug 2009
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posted February 09, 2005 06:28 PM
In Alabama Law you CAN'T...1.Sell or distribute Red Potatos.
2.Sell, distribute or have a "Bob" in your possession.
3.Be openly Homosexual But you can: 1.Participate in celebrations that can or might contain the Southern Confederacy.
2.Own and possess wild animals in domestic areas(home,backyard,etc...).
3.Engage in marriage with a partner that can be as close as your own first cousin or around something like that! Gee, 'Bama sure passes and holds some pretty strange laws!  IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 09, 2005 06:32 PM
quote:
The obvious homophobic undertones of your post indicate that you, sir, fear a side of yourself that perhaps may be attracted to the same gender.
These kinds of arguments don't work well with me BlueRoamer. I assume if you had anything of substance to say...about the reasons parents should permit their children to be indoctrinated by school districts about homosexual lifestyles....you would have at least attempted to put forth a reasonable argument. Your response was shallow, hollow, hostile and utterly predictable but hey, that's you in a nutshell.
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Eleanore
Moderator Posts: 112
From: Okinawa, Japan
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 09, 2005 08:50 PM
I don't think children should be taught that homosexuality is right or wrong in schools. I think that's something that falls into their family's values and their own life experience as they mature. However, I have little tolerance for the manner of basic sex education programs in schools anyway. I have no problem with the idea of teaching my kids about sex. I do have a problem with time being spent on the subject that could be better spent teaching them the basics, at the very least. Imagine, you've never been taught anything much about how your body works at all, you're just barely learning the basics of pre-algebra in 5th grade, and then you spend about an entire month learning about your reproductive organs, sex, and its many consequences. Does any 5th grader know anything about how their pulmonary system works? How about circulatory? How about nervous? Um, no, just one big dose of reproduction and sex. Yes, then after all this focus, they are cautioned that it's not that important to them at that age and that they should focus more on their studies. Okay
None of my sex ed classes ever mentioned homosexuality. But we all knew what it was anyway. However, not everyone agreed on whether it was "right" or "wrong". Furthermore, teaching about homosexuality isn't just teaching about the sex act between homosexuals. How do you propose to teach children the morality and values of homosexual marriage when most aren't taught, in schools, the morality and values of heterosexual marriage? Isn't that something your parents are supposed to teach you? I know the only thing I was ever taught about marriage in school was that it was something you did when you fell in love and then you could have sex. Besides, you'd have to contend with parents not wanting their kids exposed to that aspect of sex just like with regular sex ed programs (parents do have that right) ... and then the biases of the teachers themselves. I just think the subject would be better broached by me personally without having someone else's opinions about it presented to my kids in a factual way. Trust me, I had teachers saying that people who had STD's were dirty and deserved their diseases because of their actions and other teachers saying that herpes isn't that big a deal because you can still live a pretty normal life. Frankly, I'd have been happy with the facts; this is what this STD is, this is how you get it, this is how it can or can't be treated, this is how it affects you ... if it had to be taught.
I have to agree with jwhop here. I don't feel that morality should be taught in schools. That's just parents being lazy. As it is, our morals as adults don't always coincide based on our personal religious/spiritual/cultural beliefs, etc. Which one are you going to choose to teach? I'd be much happier knowing that my kids would be learning to read and write, to understand math and science, to learn about history (hopefully unbiased), and to perhaps have a chance at developing an artistic or athletic talent as well. Leave the religious and moral values up to me. If other parents don't have the regard for their children to bother to teach them these things then that's a problem better left to a therapist or family counselor. But don't take up the time reserved for basic education, currently unfavorable at best, to teach kids things their parents are "uncomfortable with" or "too busy to deal with". They're your kids. They're your responsibility above anyone else's. And just because your parents are biased in one way or another doens't mean you have to be. I knew plenty of kids whose parents thought that homosexuality was a "sick abnormality" whose closest friends were homosexuals. Kids aren't automatically stupid by virtue of being kids ... they knew their parents were biased and formed their own opinions when the time came.
It's the same with any controversial issues being taught in schools. How many parents would be against the "morality" of abortion being taught in schools? Or the "morality" of assisted suicide? I'm am NOT equating homosexuality with these things, they're just all highly controversial issues.
If the purpose of teaching kids about homosexuality is to expose them to the idea and have them accept it as "normal" then I certainly think that many parents will be understandably upset by it because of their religious background ... and you have a right to believe in any religion you please and to base your opinions about any issue on that. Tolerance is a different story ... and a value that can be taught outside the scope of relgion/morality and inside the scope of history.
Sorry for the rant, but I honestly think parents need to take a bigger responsibility for their children's needs outside of basic education. And I sure as heck don't want anyone else's opinions presented to my kids as though they were the truth. Putting morals in the hands of the education system is a dangerous business because of the vast differences that exist between individuals (yes, teachers are individuals) as far as morality is concerned. Some parents truly may not want a biased and close-minded teacher talking about homosexuality to their kids in a way that makes it seem like some kind of evil deviation while other parents may not want a highly liberal minded teacher talking to their kids about homosexuality as though it is something that is and always has been perfectly normal and is no different, in any way, from heterosexuality.
I honestly think part of the problem with teaching controversial issues is the fact that they're controversial. How long did it take after slavery was abolished for it to be taught in schools as something that even took place ... and then as something that was wrong? Perhaps one day down the line, when and if homosexuality is accepted as normal by the majority of our population, then it too will be taught as a matter of civil rights, as a part of basic history. But you can't force people to feel about it any which way in order to hurry up the process of acceptance or rejection by educating them, biasedly or unbiasedly, about it.------------------
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Ghandi IP: Logged |
ozonefiller
Newflake Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Aug 2009
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posted February 09, 2005 09:44 PM
Really, I don't think that the heavy influeance of political opinion, sexual prefence, religious right or differences, nor moral values should be weighed down on the mind of a child in a classroom anyway!First of all, no kid is going to fully understand it and second, I don't think that a typical kid is going to really care anyway, at least not until they come to that age when they can take those kind of classes by the time they reach high school and then they can form they're own opinion about those subjects that tend to be so trivial to the ones that are more concerned about what goes on day to day within they're own lives and the problems that they face. Ugly part about all of this is the fact that once again, we are making these kinds of steps towards that child in the classroom, is no better then handing over something to school systems that should be taught originally by parents, Sunday schools(depending on what religion you belong to) and/or Sex Ed classes anyway! Going the route that is going already, is just another step towards fueling and strengthening another bureaucratic control over the masses! Besides, we have other religions that exist in this country, I don't think that we need to heavily influeance the Christian ways(and only the Christain ways) in the school's system. All that will do is enforce segregation into America once again! IP: Logged |
Mystic Dreamz
unregistered
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posted February 10, 2005 01:52 AM
Besides, we have other religions that exist in this country, I don't think that we need to heavily influeance the Christian ways(and only the Christain ways) in the school's system. All that will do is enforce segregation into America once again!Indeed. IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 10, 2005 02:30 AM
Hey Ozone, you have your very own echo.IP: Logged | |
Lindaland
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