posted March 29, 2005 11:58 PM              

Sometimes people think they know what is best.

If pets can be euthanized I think they should have that for humans too.

It's not good to have to see someone suffer.

posted March 30, 2005 02:58 PM              

lalalinda- According to the doctors who study this kind of thing, it's quite possible. They're experts, they know what they're talking about. On this subject, I doubt either you or I do. I'll take their word for it.

Also, since Terry is braindead, she doesn't *feel* pain. She doesn't feel anything. You are anthropomorphosizing (sp?) what is essentially an automaton.

posted March 30, 2005 03:04 PM              

I pray we all get a chance to have a loved one carry out our wishes as requested with no objections from those who may think differently and who have their own lives to consider.

I don't know what Terry wanted. I pray she gets whatever she wants. I wish her peace.

posted March 31, 2005 07:53 AM              

quote:

---

....but we must remember that this case has been heard in the courts over and over. They must know something we don't.

---

I don't believe that's necessarily true...it's more like they have the POWER that we don't!

Now she is dying a slow death...day by day...because her loved ones have been forbidden to feed her.....EVERYONE has been forbidden to feed her!

.....and we all stand by and watch it happen...rendered powerless....by "the courts" Kangaroo courts?

posted March 31, 2005 08:01 AM              

What has she done?
...has cruelty won?
.....does mercy have no say?

Her mom and dad,
...with hearts so sad
.....ask, on this the thirteenth day

Save Terri's life,
....relieve this strife,
......we beg, we plead, we pray

Falls on deaf ears,
...as death draws near,
......where helpless Terri lay,

And so she dies
.....midst futile cries
........the "judge" has final say!

She fought the fight
.....against the might
.........but karma says "They pay!"

She's fading fast...

posted March 31, 2005 12:09 PM              

Rainbow said:

quote:

---

I don't believe that's necessarily true...it's more like they have the POWER that we don't!

---

As if any of us should have authority to make other peoples' decisions.

posted March 31, 2005 12:22 PM            

Terri Schiavo
Theresa Marie Schiavo, the woman at the center of a protracted legal battle in Florida, died on March 31, nearly two weeks after doctors removed her feeding tube. She was 41.

Born and raised in Pennsylvania, Schiavo moved to St. Petersburg, Fla., in the early 1980s and worked in an administrative capacity for a insurance company. Described by friends as happy, compassionate and quick to smile, Terri was 26 years old in 1990 when she suddenly collapsed. The cause of the collapse is still in debate, but her doctors credit a cardiac arrest induced by a potassium imbalance. Since the incident, the severely brain-damaged woman has lived in hospital or hospice care, unable to speak or feed herself.

Her husband, Michael Schiavo, was named her legal guardian. On Terri's behalf, he filed a malpractice lawsuit and won $300,000 for his loss of consortium. Terri was awarded $1 million, which was placed in a medical trust fund to be used for her care, at her husband's discretion.

Since 1998, Michael Schiavo has moved in with another woman and fathered two children. He became estranged from Terri's family for repetedly petitioning the courts to have Terri's feeding tube removed. Michael Schiavo claims Terri once told him that she would want to be taken off life support if she was unable to communicate her own decisions on life sustaining or life support procedures.

Terri left no living will.

Her parents, Mary and Bob Schindler, have fought Michael Schiavo in court, and demanded that her feeding tube be reinserted. Medical experts hired by the Schindlers dispute that Terri is in "persistent vegetative state," and thus deserves nourishment and physical therapy.

In 2002, Judge George W. Greer of Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Court in Florida ruled that Terri had no hope of recovery, and ordered her feeding tube removed. The Schindlers appealed and managed to hold off the procedure until Oct. 14, 2003. That day, a Florida appeals court refused to block the removal of Terri's feeding tube and her doctors completed the procedure. A week later, the Florida Legislature passed a bill that allowed Florida Gov. Jeb Bush to intervene on her behalf. "Terri's Law" dismissed the court's ruling and ordered the feeding tube be reinserted. Her doctors complied with the request.

Last September, Florida's Supreme Court declared "Terri's Law" to be an unconstitutional encroachment on the judiciary. The case was then sent back to Judge Greer, who again ruled in Michael Schiavo's favor and ordered the removal of Terri's feeding tube. The procedure was delayed pending appeal.

In recent months, the Schiavo case transformed from a private family matter to a national controversy. Protesters, mostly members of the religious right, have camped out in front of the hospice where Terri is staying. Many brought their children to the demonstrations as well. Politicians and pundits have made appearances on news and talk shows to discuss right-to-life issues, the nature of "family" and the spiritual ramifications of starvation. An Illinois man was even arrested for allegedly robbing a gun store in Seminole, Fla., as part of a plan to "rescue Terri Schiavo."

When the U.S. Supreme Court rejected a request to consider arguments in the case, the U.S. Senate and House of Representatives decided to intervene on Terri's behalf. On March 18, 2005, Terri's feeding tube was removed. Amidst protests and continuing media coverage, Congress responded on March 21 by passing the "Compromise Bill," which ordered the case to be reviewed by a federal court. That same night, President George W. Bush interrupted his vacation in Crawford, Texas, to return to the White House and sign the bill into law.

After reviewing the case, U.S. District Judge James Whittemore ruled that Terri's "life and liberty interests" had been protected by Florida courts and denied the Schindlers' request to reinsert her feeding tube. In a 2-1 vote, the 11th Circuit Court agreed with the lower court's decision. Then on March 24, the U.S. Supreme Court denied the Schindlers' application for a stay of enforcement of the Florida judgment. In response, Gov. Bush threatened to send state agents to the hospice and force the reinsertion of Terri's feeding tube. Judge Greer responded by issuing an emergency order that barred the state from "taking possession of Theresa Marie Schiavo." Subsequent appeals to the federal appeals court and the Supreme Court failed to overrule the lower courts' decisions.

posted March 31, 2005 12:27 PM              

Pie Jesu
Qui tollis peccata mundi
Dona eis requiem
Agnus Dei
Dona eis requiem sempiternam

posted March 31, 2005 01:22 PM              

quote:

---

Ohmigod Rainbow give it a rest. The courts have acted legally. Maybe you don't understand- Terri has been completely brain-dead for 15 years. By most criteria- thought, feeling- she isn't alive even with the feeding tube in.

---

Maybe it's you who don't understand, Queen! There have been differing opinions by medical experts, on whether Terri has actually been "brain dead" for the past 15 years or not....

There have even been suspicions that her dearly beloved "husband" (who now has another "wife" and family) may have been knocking the hell out of her...since broken bones were discovered, which hadn't been noticed earlier....

I don't happen to buy into the notion that Terri was in a vegetative state...just because a lot of other "sheeple" did. There were too many other opinions to the contrary!

Her parents are heartbroken....all they asked of her "husband" was that he please turn Terri over to them, and they would take care of her and love her....but he didn't have the good graces to do that...

posted March 31, 2005 01:24 PM            

I was in Michael's shoes. And I did make the same choice.

My brother was 50, and even in the hospital at the time, when he had the same experience as Terry: a massive heart attack that cut off oxygen to his brain, resulting in massive brain damage and a persistent vegetative state. There was no hope for recovery of any kind, meaningful or otherwise. He would merely subsist in a vegetative state.

I would like to note that he too was capable of limited eye movement, which has been made much of in Terry's case. I assure you, it was a motor reflex that registered no conscious understanding in my brother.

The difference in the two cases is that we did not make his poor body endure 15 years in such a state, nor did we argue over his fate. We let him go, as he wished, and ceased his feeding tube and all medications. He was able to slip into spirit much more quickly that Terri, because he received no liquids (she was receiving liquid morphine).

If we choose our karma, if we choose our lives, if we are co-creators of our Universe, then we are also co-creators of our deaths. Let's not place blame on the shared karma that this family agreed upon. We simply don't know the whole story.

If I had been in Terri's position, and had requested to be let go, I would be glad to have had an advocate such as Michael on my side.

posted March 31, 2005 05:24 PM              

I realize that watching loved ones die is not something that's pleasant, having witnessed the death of both my father and mother to cancer

These deaths were like a horrible nightmare for me and my family....

...and Trillian I feel offended and hurt, that you say to me "Rainbow, we did not murder our brother."

I did not say you murdered your brother (since I didn't even know about your brother until your post here)!

Although I guess I can understand your irritation with so many of us who feel Terri's death was a murder, considering you had a similiar situation with your brother.

I assume you made your choice because you trusted the Dr.'s and their opinions......good for you....

.....however, Terri's reason for losing oxygen to her brain has never been really established, and there have been suspisions that her husband may have been responsible for her condition...

There have been disputes about the supposed "vegetative state" as well...and lest I be made to look absolutely foolish here, I feel absolved by knowing that I'm in pretty good company....

Pat Boone's grandson Ryan, was dianosed with exactly the same thing as Terri, but the family didn't accept the diagnoses, and the grandson has made progress from his "vegetative state," with therapy.

...and here is what Mel Gibson had to say about it...(from World Net Daily)

********

"The case of Terri Schiavo is a modern-day crucifixion with a pro-death agenda driving it."

"It's just completely wrong to deprive this poor woman of food and water, It's a prolonged and cruel execution."

"I'm appalled and stunned that we've gotten to this," Gibson said. "I just sit here watching this whole scenario play out in front of me with my mouth hanging wide open, that our country has come to this. I think it's really a dark, black day. And I think that this final appeal – it's too little too late. It's an attempt [by] the powers that be to sort of really just cover their a-- later on so they can say we tried, but in fact, they're not trying real hard. ...

"What happened to just being a human being, you know? It's nothing more than state-sanctioned murder. All the big guys, they all have their hands tied up by some tinhorn judge down there. Come on, when they want to whip a judge, they got no problem doing that. Look what they did to [Ten Commandments proponent Roy Moore] in a heartbeat. So they can do it if they want. They just don't want to."

Gibson, acknowledges Schiavo has "some brain damage," but adds "she's not a vegetable," noting the debate over whether or not she's in a persistent vegetative state is not resolved.

"It hasn't had a fair going-over yet, so to just go right to this crucifixion of this woman ... even a dog has more rights. You do this to an animal, they'll lock you up, but this is a human being we're doing this to."

"...It's just a terrible tragedy to watch state-sanctioned murder."

posted March 31, 2005 06:51 PM            

quote:

---

...and Trillian I feel offended and hurt, that you say to me "Rainbow, we did not murder our brother

---

quote:

---

It was a murder plain and simple...

---

Who offended whom? You made a blanket statement. No, you didn't know about my brother. But apply your statement to any of those of us who made this sort of decision, and you have, in effect, called us murderers.

quote:

---

.....however, Terri's reason for losing oxygen to her brain has never been really established, and there have been suspisions that her husband may have been responsible for her condition

---

This distorts all the facts that are publicly known, and reads like something in a gossip magazine. There is simply no proof (and I would like to see your source) that Terri was abused by her husband. In fact, her parents were quite in love with Michael until disagreements over the settlement of the lawsuit on her behalf, and whether to let her live or die. The lawsuit settlement ($700,000 of which went towards Terri's care, $300,000 of which went to Michael) was a heated issue on both sides.

And the fact is, that none of us knows what went on in that family, except the family. You can site all the possibilities you want, but that makes none of them true. In this country, we like to say that one is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

quote:

---

assume you made your choice because you trusted the Dr.'s and their opinions......good for you....

---

That reads quite condescendingly.

quote:

---

Gibson, acknowledges Schiavo has "some brain damage," but adds "she's not a vegetable," noting the debate over whether or not she's in a persistent vegetative state is not resolved

---

Is that Doctor Gibson? I can't see any reason to find what he says to be reliable.

Even the Doctors Terri's family recently used in court had not personally examined her. Their diagnoses can only be suspect.

posted March 31, 2005 07:39 PM              

I will always remember Bob as he was very dear to my heart. He was a tough ex military guy in his early 50's. He had a heart attack and then several strokes and like Terri was left unable to speak or move anything but three fingers. He understood what you said to him and would use his fingers to point. That poor guy tried to die for years, he was in absolute torment. He lay in that bed 12 years. I watched him as he looked at me and cried. Everything in the body breaks down, the colon ceases to function, pressure sores, constant infections, all kind of awful pianful complications that people have no idea of.

He eventually died after a lung infection. I just couldn't believe how at peace he looked lying in his coffin. He looked more alive then I'd ever seen him.

I hear many assumptions that she was not in a vegetative state and the proof they've shown is nothing unusual. I would like to point out, just as Trillian already has, that these states are called wakeful non conscious states. You don't have to be in a coma to be in a vegetative state, nor on life support. You can sleep and be awake and have reflex movements.

I pray to God none of you ever have to live through what Michael or Terri's family had to. To accuse someone of murder is to judge when you really don't know the facts and you have no right. None of you examined her or spent time with her. Court appointed doctors, not on her husbands payroll, examined Terri periodically. Fifteen years is a long time in her condition for rehabilitation. I wish more nurses in hospice would come forward and tell it how they see it every single day.

It's not easy for anyone, why do people insist on making it worse by laying blame. How do you know? What if it was what she wanted?

Gia

posted March 31, 2005 08:51 PM              

my own opinion about terri was based on the fact that terri had mother father sister and brother all pleading to let terri live....they would take care of her......
if i were micheal i couldnt have done this to them, and by this method......thats all

posted March 31, 2005 09:03 PM              

Not so!

Take a good look at the thread, "MEMO TO AMNESTY INTENATIONAL" also on this forum.

You'll find at least six others who feel as I do (which oddly enough, is rare for this particular mix of people). I think maybe they should also know that you did not "murder your brother."