Lindaland
  Global Unity
  Oh, Those Idealistic Communists!

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Oh, Those Idealistic Communists!
jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted December 21, 2005 01:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It happened a short time ago here that someone was touting the idealism of communists. That's right, the political system of thugs and murderers was presented as idealistic. The thugs and murderers who in the 20th century were reponsible for the murder of as many as 200,000,000 of their own citizens. That's two hundred million...approximately 2/3's of the current US population.

Later, someone else chimed in on socialism/communism and opined that those communist governments weren't practicing "true communism". Bullsh*t.

Here is the founder of communist doctrine, Karl Marx...from his own words, eradicate, liquidate all capitalists, all Jews, all Christians from the face of the earth...that's real moral idealism. In practice, communists liquidate all who disagree with them...that's moral idealism too.

Murder, rape, robbery, genocide, starvation and lying...all moral deeds when done in the service of a communist state or the pursuit of a communist workers paradise.

Now I understand the radical left's worship of Bill Clinton. Commander Corruption had a good measure of those communist moral ideals.

Rape
Sexual Assault
Adultery
Murder
Bribery
Treason
Obstruction of Justice
Perjury
Lying
Subornation of Perjury
Genocide...Rwanda

Marx and the Worship of Man
Steve Farrell
Wednesday, Dec. 21, 2005

Missing the Mark With Religion, Part 4

Again I pose the same question, but with slight variation: Do religion and morality have a place in public policy, public law, and public education – or are they to be scorned, shunned, and silenced?

Finding the answer to that question in lieu of the hot battle between 21st Century Compassionate Conservatism on the one hand, and 20th Century Modern Liberalism (and its twin sister on moral and religious issues – Libertarianism) on the other, is a quest worthy of our full attention.

As I've already stated without apology, the unspoken consensus – though few admit it – is: ‘It's right to inject religion and morality into the public sphere just so long as the moral slant parallels my moral view of the universe, and it is dead wrong if it does not!'

It's time to fess up, reality speaks!

So let's get frank with those on the left who keep telling the religious folks on the right to ‘hush up' – even the most devout atheist cannot escape the innate compulsion to moralize.

Communist founder Karl Marx was just such a man. Being one who arrogantly proclaimed "there is no morality," he was, just the same, incapable of restraining himself from endlessly condemning capitalists – in moral terms – such as egotistical, exploitive, greedy, calculating, disgusting, and hypocritical men, who look upon their wives and daughters as "common prostitutes," or their wives and children as "simple articles of commerce and instruments of labor." (1)

Meanwhile, let's not forget Marx's constant references and illusions to the oppressed, the minority, the outcast, and the victim (or collectively the ‘Workers' – apparently no one else works under his generalized lens) who deserve better, who OUGHT to be in control, who he implies, by default, are the only moral ones, the only deserving ones, the ones who – as a result – get all the rewards (the forcibly redistributed booty and benefits), while everyone else is liquidated.

And why not? The previous ruling class – and under Capitalism this refers mostly to the middle class – have committed every moral atrocity against the working class – even though Marx denies the existence of right and wrong – and thus they OUGHT to die. Get it?

Don't be deceived. Marx moralized everything, with good guys and bad guys and rewards and punishments. It's just that he had a different set of rules to interpret, to reward, and to cure moral injustices. Just how can his central dogma "the ends justify the means" be interpreted as anything other than a moral perspective?

It is this high and holy frame of reference of the ends justifying the means that is the moral driving force behind everything communist; a driving force that drags behind it a host of additional moral teachings such as lies may be told, property may be stolen, babies may be aborted, and millions may be strategically starved by order of the state if it so be that the lucky ‘left behind' masses will be benefited at the dinner table with a few more meager morsels of rice, a few more acres of unproductive common property, or to tell the hidden truth behind the propaganda, if it so be that the privileged few of the ruling class might ascend one step higher in prominence and privilege over the toiling, suffering, mindless masses that the communists pretend to defend, but are ever ready to crush with their iron fist.

Such moral ends! Nevertheless, each of these ‘means,' and a million other diabolical variations upon them, are moral, as Marx defines morality.

Such a moral system!

But Marx does not leave off there. The same Marx who arrogantly proclaimed against morality, only to invent his own morality; next arrogantly proclaimed that he had "dethroned God," only to invent his own God – man. "Man is God," he taught. But not willing to leave bad enough alone he had to invent his own theory of how life began and evolved. And when he had finished with it, and arrived at the final product in the equation, religion entered the formula again in an ironically self-serving, ‘masses be damned' way.

For Marx taught, as did Darwin, that man evolved from the lower species, but rather than evolving (taking up enormous periods of time for the slightest changes), Marx concluded evolution from the lower species to the higher came in quantum leaps. That is, yesterday's monkey is today's man. No stuff in the middle. Where the real trouble starts is when Marx decided that some men leaped farther than others, and that he, Marx, had leaped farther than they all!

With such a theology as this, it isn't hard to understand why Marx soon expected to be worshiped, that he made it a practice to crush all competitors in the communist movement, and that communism and socialism re-introduced to the world the worship of the state.

But that was not all. Communism introduced the diabolic belief that genocide was a highly moral act. Marx taught that emerging communist states should conduct swift and brutal purges of capitalist and/or religious people in society to speed up the transition from capitalism to full-blown communism. This murderous intervention tactic by communist masters, which would occur during the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, Marx described as "compassionate" because it would be less costly in blood than if capitalism died a slower, more natural death.

And so this exposes another fiction: the mass murdering campaigns of Stalin and Mao and other communist dictators were and are Marxist, not a gross departure from Marx as the historical revisionists many claim. Indeed, there is a bloodbath to be found wherever Communism has set up camp and conquered, and the root to this violence is found in nearly every political pamphlet Marx ever wrote, beginning with his Manifesto which blatantly proclaims: "The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing conditions. Let the ruling class tremble at the Communist revolution." (2)

The ruling class trembled all right. To the tune of nearly 200 million dead in the 20th Century, (3) and countless billions more robbed, raped, and enslaved – and the count goes on.

Fascism fits right into this discussion as well, for it seems the question leftist historians and political scientists habitually refuse to address is whether or not the root gospel that produced Hitler's belief in the superiority of the Aryan race and his hatred for Jews was not Christian and Capitalist (as the revisionists also claim), but a race-oriented twist on Communist Marx's ‘man as God' theology. Rarely mentioned when one hears the word Nazi is that the Nazi Party's official name was the National Socialist German Workers' Party (4); that Hitler, a student of Marx, was one of its founders; that German socialism had infected Germany with a hatred for the Jews long before Hitler was born (Marx even identified Germany in the Communist Manifesto as the place "The Communists turn their attention chiefly to,") and that the beginning of all this modern Jew hating dates at least as far back as Marx's own call for "the species ... [to be] abolished." (5)

It would be more honest, therefore, to state that Fascism is but one form of socialism, and that Hitler's racist Holocaust was motivated by the morality of the atheistic, hate-God-left, not the believing, love-God-right.

This is no light matter. One of the loudest and emotionally charged arguments used against the involvement of conservative Christians in the public debate is this supposed link of Christianity to the Holocaust, as if to warn that Christian fundamentalism was made in Hitler's image. But the link to Christianity doesn't wash. In fact, Communist Founder Karl Marx's made it clear that his resolve to have the species abolished (which Hitler would be one to initiate in Europe) needed to be extended to Christianity as well. Wrote Marx: "Christianity sprang from Judaism. It has merged again in Judaism. From the outset, the Christian was the theorizing Jew, the Jew is, therefore, the practical Christian, and the practical Christian has become a Jew again." (6)

All of this being vital to both Marx and Hitler because it was the spirit of Judaism which was, according to both of them, at the root of the love of property, and it was this Jewish inspired love of property that was the enemy of both the fascist and the communist state, or if you will, the socialist state.

Again from Marx:

What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Judaism, would be the self-emancipation of our time. An organization of society which would abolish the preconditions for huckstering, and therefore the possibility of huckstering, would make the Jew impossible. ... Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. (7) This is the real Marx, the moral philosopher, the great ‘emancipator of our time,' who first made the modern moral case for the genocide of entire classes and races and religions (particularly Judaism and Christianity) in search of that emancipation; and when initially impossible (in the more advanced capitalist nations), of their step by step removal from public life and public influence.

And again, this is the real Marx, the creator of a ‘new' religion, Communism, which outlaws the Judeo-Christian God only to make Marx and his successors the Gods that MUST be worshipped.

Yes, Communists moralize. Yes, Communists set up religions and Gods and mix their morality and their religion in the hands of the state. It's inescapable. That's what humans do – because humans are moral beings – and so their laws reflect morality of one sort or another.

Little surprise then, as we have seen, laws sponsored by liberals or libertarians, compassionate conservatives or communists, have at their foundation one moral view of the universe or another, some correct, some flawed, some applied in ways which enhance human liberty, others which crush it. However, one thing is for certain, never has there been an approach to the role of religion and morality in public life which missed the mark with more deadly, more dreadful, more crushing results than that inspired by the atheist Karl Marx, who haughtily denied the existence of the true God, banished His worship and attending system of morality and truth from the earth, only to put man in His place – the Marxist Man, that is.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/12/20/202519.shtml

IP: Logged

lotusheartone
unregistered
posted December 21, 2005 01:14 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
thanks, very enlightening information

if this continues there will BE no Harmony
Peace On Earth
We are children of God MOther and Father
and can not rule withOut them

One Nation, Under GOD
this means the whole Earth
Not just the United States of America... ...

Love and Light to ALL

IP: Logged

salome
unregistered
posted December 21, 2005 01:37 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jwhop ~ defender of freedom for all..

------------------
he will take us by the hand,
and lead us to the wonderland,
if we can't be good, we'll be careful...
and do the best we can.

linford manning

IP: Logged

TINK
unregistered
posted December 21, 2005 07:36 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jwhop ~ when judging the actions of the early Russian Communists, possibly you should do so in light of their circumstance .... not yours. This simple exercise might help you understand that historical period (any historical period in fact) in a deeper and more comprehensive way.

"The past is another country, they do things differently there"

As has been pointed out, and I'm sure you've noticed , I am a judgmental and close-minded religious fanatic. And yet, even in my ultra-orthodox stupor, I am able to acknowledge that those holding religious power have historically used that power against the poor and the powerless. This might explain, at least in part, Marx's aversion to religion in general. As for the anti-Semitism, of course it is indefensible. It also ran rampant across Europe at that time, with a fever not seen since the Middle Ages, crossing all boundries of political creed and nationality. Marx was certainly not alone.

Finally, I recently had a brief conversation about communists on another thread. So if I am one of these masked bandits to which you refer, please say so. Why dick around? Let's have at it, shall we?

IP: Logged

jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted December 21, 2005 10:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So TINK, you believe former movements, peoples, groups and governments should be viewed within the context of their times and not from a 20th or 21st century perspective?

Does that belief extend to the slave owners prior to, during and after the founding of the United States?

I doubt the Marx aversion to religion had anything to do with the Russian Orthodox Church. Nor did the Church oppress the Russian peasantry. In fact the Russians were quite religious. If anyone oppressed the Russian people...prior to the communists taking control, it was the Czar and the Czar's secret police.

Marx had an aversion to the concept of God and proclaimed he had dethroned God. Given his concept of evolution and his belief he was the most evolved man, it's a given he thought he had not only dethroned God but replaced God which he intended to enforce through the communist state. The communist state which in practice is one man rule with layers of functionaries.

Marx was an equal opportunity liquidator wannabe. He would have killed not only the Jews but the Christians and members of every other religious denomination and, of course, the capitalists.

I posted the article and made comments to refute a couple of comments which surfaced here.

First, that communists are idealistic...as we would understand the term.

Second, that communism had been hijacked and the world never saw communism in it's pure form...as originally envisioned

Both comments are thoroughly punctured by the remarks of Karl Marx whose viciousness and advocacy of wholesale murder jumps off the pages of his pamphlets and Manifesto. Communist nations were and are exactly as Karl Marx envisioned them.

You have now twice accused me of calling you a red commie babe, although I think you used a male term before.

Perhaps you can answer your own question...was I talking about you, if you can answer some of my questions.

Have you ever known me to hold back and not say pretty much exactly what I mean?

Have I ever referred to you as a radical leftist?

Do you honestly think I would actually give someone I considered a communist the slightest power over me or my actions?

Are you aware I put you on a list of 6 people I recommended for a moderator of this forum?

IP: Logged

TINK
unregistered
posted December 22, 2005 11:57 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
So TINK, you believe former movements, peoples, groups and governments should be viewed within the context of their times and not from a 20th or 21st century perspective?

I'd be happy to clarify.

I believe an acknowledgment of time and place might help us better understand the motives and thought processes behind the action. Time and place are awful tyrants, aren't they? Do they excuse an action? No, they certainly do not. I am no moral relativist. I've stated that many times.

quote:
Does that belief extend to the slave owners prior to, during and after the founding of the United States?

Slavery is often dragged out of the closet when discussing these matters. Rightfully so. Jefferson writing the Declaration with one hand and buying himself a slave with the other and all that myopic business. If I were magically transported to 1776 Virginia, I would buy as many slaves as my dime would get me. An acknowledgement of circumstance is all I ask.

quote:
I doubt the Marx aversion to religion had anything to do with the Russian Orthodox Church.

I doubt it too. We would do well to remember Marx was a German who wrote his infamous treatise while snuggled in the warm lap of Victorian Mother England, traditional home of human rights and democracy. (tongue in cheek or no? You decide lol)

quote:
Nor did the Church oppress the Russian peasantry. In fact the Russians were quite religious.

Odd. You seem to be using the second statement to prove the first. Sorry, does not compute.

But anywhoo ... I can't quite agree on the lack of Church oppression. Were the Church fathers burning and torturing with medieval zest? No, I suppose not. The oppression was of a more subtle nature. A dead weight around the neck, if you will. Russia, all of Europe to varying degrees, has flirted with a sort of caste system the Indians would be proud of. And we all know how the Brahmans love a good caste system and why, don't we? The Russian Orthodox Church was no different. Hopefully they have learned their lesson and now know their true function in society.

I do wholeheartedly agree with the second statement. The Russians were/are a remarkably religious race. Unfortunately, they have a prediliction to superstitious mumbo-jumbo, which might in part explain why the Good Lord allowed Communism to be shoved down their collective throats. But that's maybe another story ...

quote:
If anyone oppressed the Russian people...prior to the communists taking control, it was the Czar and the Czar's secret police.

Gosh, do you think? Does this mean you're ready to look into circumstance?

quote:
Marx had an aversion to the concept of God and proclaimed he had dethroned God. Given his concept of evolution and his belief he was the most evolved man, it's a given he thought he had not only dethroned God but replaced God which he intended to enforce through the communist state. The communist state which in practice is one man rule with layers of functionaries.

my italics

cont.

IP: Logged

TINK
unregistered
posted December 22, 2005 12:07 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You have now twice accused me of calling you a red commie babe, although I think you used a male term before.

Many times more than twice, jwhop. Always with respectful affection though.

Have you ever known me to hold back and not say pretty much exactly what I mean?

Dunno. Everyone holds back. I don't know what you started with, so how could I know what you set loose and what you kept? I notice you haven't unmasked those bandits.

Have I ever referred to you as a radical leftist?

Yes, I'm certain you have. I good record keeper I am not. Possibly Petron could find a few examples.

Do you honestly think I would actually give someone I considered a communist the slightest power over me or my actions?

No, I don't.

Are you aware I put you on a list of 6 people I recommended for a moderator of this forum?

Yes, I noticed that. Thank you. Slim pickins, eh?

Finally ... let's be realistic, shall we? Let's move past ideas and theories. Let's pay a nod to the ones that actually lived it instead of merely reading about it from the comfort of their warm American living rooms many miles and years away. Because sweetie, if you had stood in a cold river of blood at the door of the Great and Powerful Czar's palace on that fateful night of January 1905, you too would have signed up with the dreaded Communists. Hell, you would have signed a pact with Mephistopheles, if that were the only option offered you.

IP: Logged

jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted December 22, 2005 04:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
An acknowledgement of circumstance is all I ask.

So, you want to explore circumstances...so be it.

You seem to be of the opinion it was the duty of the Russian Orthodox church to preach revolution to the Russian people to overthrow the Czar and also their duty to preach against the ills of a caste system.

Such is not the mission of the Christian Churches nor has it been, except in cases where one church or another has itself been corrupt and attempted to gain political power over government. The mission of the church is spiritual in nature. "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence"

The circumstances of Russian peasants storming the castle is no indication they were trying to overthrow the Czar..."to establish a communist government." It's doubtful 1 in 10,000 had the least notion what a communist was or the least idea what communism was/is.

You may well have accused me more than twice of calling you a commie babe but I can't be everywhere or see everything. I remember 2 and in each case, I set the record straight.

I think whoever searches for the quotes where I called you a radical leftist will search in vain. You may have made the association in your own mind but that's a quite different thing.

I have doubts I would have been found among the mob which overthrew the Czar. I'm not a joiner. As for being against the Czar and his repressive government, that's most certain but there would have had to be something of a more personal nature done to me or my family by that government or the Czar himself for me to decide to kill him. And, if I had reached that point, I wouldn't have involved a mob in my plans.

That's what I say now from the comfort of my warm office. From that same warm office, I also say...I don't make Faustian bargains.

No, I didn't find the pickings slim when I made a list of memebers I thought would do a good job as a moderator for this forum. If I had known juniperb was around, I would have put her on the list too...and I will.

IP: Logged

AcousticGod
Knowflake

Posts: 4415
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted December 23, 2005 01:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
“When I gave food to the poor, they called me a saint. When I asked why the poor were hungry, they called me a communist.” --Dom Helder Camara

IP: Logged

TINK
unregistered
posted December 23, 2005 09:34 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
So, you want to explore circumstances...so be it.

It's not so much that I want to, Jwhop. It's that I see the necessity of it. It's the only fair thing to do.

quote:
You seem to be of the opinion it was the duty of the Russian Orthodox church to preach revolution to the Russian people to overthrow the Czar and also their duty to preach against the ills of a caste system.

A mind and soul weighed down by cultural and political tryanny is not condusive to spiritual evolvement. Whether intended or not, Jesus scared the sh!t out of the Pharisees and Pontius both. What threatens a tryant more so than a free thinker? The cultural and spiritual evolution of mankind is the responsiblity and concern of all those claiming spiritual insight and power. If the Church will make the claim it must take the responsibility.

As for your quote ... Do you think the mission of Christ is identical to the mission of the Church?

quote:
The circumstances of Russian peasants storming the castle is no indication they were trying to overthrow the Czar..."to establish a communist government." It's doubtful 1 in 10,000 had the least notion what a communist was or the least idea what communism was/is.

Storming the castle??!! You might want to research that date again, my friend. There was no storming. They came peacefully, petition in hand, to speak to the Father, as the Czar was then ironically called. But the Father didn't grace his children with his Almighty presence. Instead, he sent his henchmen out to slaughter men, woman and children. Later he complained of the "ruckus". The Czar unwittingly created a lot of new Communist recruits that night. Desperate circumstances/desperate measures ... you know the drill.

And it very much wasn't just peasants btw

quote:
I have doubts I would have been found among the mob which overthrew the Czar. I'm not a joiner. As for being against the Czar and his repressive government, that's most certain but there would have had to be something of a more personal nature done to me or my family by that government or the Czar himself for me to decide to kill him. And, if I had reached that point, I wouldn't have involved a mob in my plans.

To kill for personal reasons is shameful. I don't believe in murder for any reason but if it is done, at least in these circumstances, it should be free of personal vendetta.

Killing the Czar was done for two reasons, both practical and emotional: many many centuries of suppresed anger combined with the fear the Czar would rally his followers. You remember the guillotine, right?

It was a bold move to be sure and an understandable one, I think, but it should not have been done. It became their doom.

That which is begun dishonorably ....

IP: Logged

All times are Eastern Standard Time

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Linda-Goodman.com

Copyright © 2011

Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a