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Author
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Topic: More Cartoons, But of the Danish Variety
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DayDreamer
unregistered
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posted February 05, 2006 01:01 AM
 
For those who havent yet heard of the news I've cut and paste a few links to articles from different sources that may help to inform you.What are your thoughts on:
1)The intentions (underlying, if any) of the Cartoonists, Editors and Newspapers that printed these Cartoons.
2)Muslim reactions and the Boycotts.
3)Free Speech (rights and responsibilities, if any) Why ridicule won’t lead to dialogue Rights, religion clash in cartoon uproar Freedom of expression: What price must be paid for free speech?
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SecretGardenAgain
unregistered
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posted February 05, 2006 01:15 AM
Being muslim myself I think there was an overreaction happening. Disrespect of the prophet (and yes this is considered disrespect), has always happened during all times. So what? When the prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) was alived, he respectedd all people, even the woman who used to throw trash on him everyday. By being oversensitive they draw more attention to themselves. Such was also the case in Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses, which also insulted and deeply offended Christians and Jews by making fun of Moses and Mary. But no one reacted like the Muslims. Quick to anger means slow logic. Not wise. As far as free speech and intentions, eh. I don't have much to say on the topic. Love
SG IP: Logged |
DayDreamer
unregistered
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posted February 05, 2006 01:23 AM
Hi SGA,I'm Muslim too, but born and raised in Canada. And well, I'm offended by the cartoon's representation of the Prophet (pbuh), as I feel their intentions were hurtful and non-constructive. At the same time I'm hurt by some of the re-actions Muslims have taken that I see splattered on my t.v. or over the internet. Im still questioning about the rights of free speech, especially when caution and responsibility are thrown to the wind. Would like to hear more of your take, as well as other Muslims (if there are any on this board), and Non-Muslims alike  IP: Logged |
DayDreamer
unregistered
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posted February 05, 2006 02:02 AM
Hmmm I was thinking about your post SGA. About what you said regarding how Prophet Mohammed would react in the face of ridicule, hate and slander. This brought up another question to mind...why some Muslims who follow the Prophet as an example in many matters, even down to the way he dressed over 1400 years ago, are yet blind to his humbled and respectful composure and some of his aspiring interpersonal attributes. Why do you suppose some groups of Muslims have over-reacted?IP: Logged |
TINK
unregistered
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posted February 05, 2006 10:08 AM
I'm not Muslim, but I did find the cartoons to be in very bad taste. Disrespect of holy men revered by so many is bad form in my playbook. I've stated that on LL before and gotten myself into a bit of trouble, but I'm willing to say it again.Having said that, I woke this morning to news of the Danish Embassey in Beirut being attacked by "protestors" - quotations marks as I feel that is a far too lenient a term for those people, at least the ones who broke the barricade and started the fire. Mohammad's very different reaction to slander and disrespect was the first thing that came to my mind. How rarely we follow in the footsteps of the religious leaders we claim to revere. Two other thoughts floating around .... The Danes, in particular among European countries, have been struggling with what they feel is a too heavy influx of Muslims into their country for a while now, the result of which they seem to feel is damaging to their native culture. Ironically, sort of how the Arab nations feel about the damaging effects of Western culture infiltrating their own land. Things have been building up to something terrible since the murder of Theo Van Gogh. Also, I've been reading lately about the Christian martyrs of Cordoba, Spain during the Muslim occupation. These martyrs blatently slandered Muhammad, knowing the result could only be death, in order to call attention to what they felt was religious domination and extreme laws against insulting the Prophet. I guess it's an old story.
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DayDreamer
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posted February 05, 2006 11:42 AM
Tink, those are some good and interesting points. Unfortunately, I have to leave right now, so I don't have time to write a thorough reply. But will do when I return. Hope to hear some more about plausible Danish or European views on this too.Thanks IP: Logged |
Yang
unregistered
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posted February 05, 2006 02:03 PM
While, I am watching these events closely and I must admit that it's sensational, makes you think and it raises other questions too.
I am for freedom of expression but not if it is disrespective and callous. Then it's lost it purpose.
It's rather a question of Freedom of Expression vs. respect for other people's religion.
There's no easy answers for this.IP: Logged |
TINK
unregistered
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posted February 05, 2006 10:35 PM
I'm looking forward to it, Daydreamer. Yang ~ if it comes to that I'll go with the former. For me, freedom of expression can only mean tolerating the good, the bad, and the ugly. Socially unacceptable and illegal are two different things. I'd like to see participants in callous and disrespectful behavior towards another religion socially ostracized and put to task by their peers, rather then shot or imprisoned. I understand that an Egyptian politicain has recently called for the Danish government to make clear that freedom of expression can not include disrespecting Prophets. ??!!! Where's the logic? And where do the conditions end? It appears that the Arab nations by and large have given up on the idea of reasonable debate and religious tolerance - which is a damn shame btw as once upon a time they were the only ones carrying that banner, once upon a time the Arab was the only rational mind on the block. What the hell happened?  IP: Logged |
DayDreamer
unregistered
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posted February 05, 2006 11:08 PM
Tink: Guess I may get myself into a bit more trouble than you but Im going to venture further and say that not only disrespect for holy men and women, but also for other's beliefs, religion and values are in bad form. So when someone out right disrespects a belief or someone you hold as dear as your mother, of course you're going to have a reaction, and that reaction differs depending on the tolerance level of the person you're going to insult. And there are always more than enough crazies out there, especially in war torn areas these days!
And for Denmark having to deal with the large Muslim immigrant population is now a doubly hard feat. They allowed a large wave of Refugee Muslim immigrants to enter their boundraries during the 1980s-90s. Refugees came from countries like Iraq, Palestine, Bosnia and Somalia, with little to nothing, in a majority Christian country that isn't exactly welcoming of Islam, and other cultures. Those Cartoons didn't help one iota for the integration process. In fact it's helped the pendulum swing the other way.I've actually been looking for something to read on Cordoba or Al-Andalus. What book have you got there? I only just found out about Muslims' 700 year rule of Spain a few years ago, so it's not an old story to me. I'm not at all familiar with the Christian martyrs. I've heard of people dying in the name of God or religion, but not in the name of blaspheming other's religion. Interesting nonetheless! Yang that's also a good distinction pointed out of Freedom of Expression vs. Respect for Other's Religion. I feel that it really does go deeper than that. Defaming and disrespecting other's religion and beliefs is not a new phenomenon. But it's becoming all to common for my comfort. That's all I see propagating on TV, and when I do internet searches I am suprised by how many websites are dedicated to defaming and defiling Muslims. What is the point of these cartoons if they are in no way constructive, then to instigate an uproar and further hate? That is not the way to go about telling Muslims to relax or think about how Prophet Muhammad or any of the Prophets including Jesus (pbut) would go about that matter. People cannot be coerced to change their views and their beliefs. And never through such amateur and foolish antics. Well they didnt just decide to print the cartoons over night. It was planned over a period of time. Perhaps they knew there would be protests and a lot of media hype about it. So I could ask...What's the reason for the diversion of attention from other, or more important, matters in life?
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DayDreamer
unregistered
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posted February 05, 2006 11:19 PM
I think the bow was being pulled to tight long before the Cartoon came out. The Cartoons may have been just enough to release the arrow. And unfortunately the arrow can't be retracted. However, there's still hope that the wounds can be tended to and healed.
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TINK
unregistered
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posted February 06, 2006 12:02 AM
this link is ok http://libro.uca.edu/martyrs/martyrs.htm I found the muslim leaders reactions very interesting. How hard they tried to dissaude the martrys! How hard they tried to reason with them, going so far as to offer them what we would call the insanity defense! You can just sense their frustration with these "extremists". But, sadly, their hands were tied.
quote:
What is the point of these cartoons if they are in no way constructive, then to instigate an uproar and further hate? That is not the way to go about telling Muslims to relax or think about how Prophet Muhammad or any of the Prophets including Jesus (pbut) would go about that matter. People cannot be coerced to change their views and their beliefs. And never through such amateur and foolish antics.
A good question. I read an article in the Washington Post this afternoon that asked if the pictures were a stick in the eye with a purpose ... or just a stick in the eye? I've come across quite a few of those internet sites lately myself. Very sad. I found ironic the fact that there is a Christian site called "Answering Islam" and a Muslim site called "Answering Christianity", both refuting the other religion. It's sort of pathetic watching them butt heads. I don't know which one came first, but if I didn't know better I'd think they were both run by the same entity. They are two sides to a very dirty coin. quote:
I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his
fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle.
- Mahatma Gandhi "Unto you, your religion. Unto me, mine"
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DayDreamer
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posted February 06, 2006 09:50 PM
Thanks for the link. I'm going to read through it in my spare time. That's one aspect of Cordoba I wasnt aware of. What I find interesting about that era, is that the Muslim rulers made Spain the centre of civilization during the Middle Ages. Spanish Christians and Jews who were allowed to practice their religions, were educated in the Mathematics, Science, and the Greek Classical works. And this period arguably helped lead Europe into the Renaissance and the Scientific Revolution. Now compared to today it appears the tables have turned. Would like to see what the future holds in store for all of us. quote:
I read an article in the Washington Post this afternoon that asked if the pictures were a stick in the eye with a purpose ... or just a stick in the eye?
Hmm I think every action of thinking people is intiated and driven by an intention. Perhaps they weren't thinking? I completely agree with you on the AnsweringIslam and AnsweringChristianity websites.  Thanks for the Mahatma Ghandi quote. Very wise words. Extremists somehow have to realize that the sword is not and was not the weapon of choice in Islam. Some people are too innoculated by hate and too easily blinded by fury to take the right course. "There is No Compulsion in Religion" (Quran 2:256) IP: Logged |
TINK
unregistered
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posted February 19, 2006 11:23 AM
Hello Daydreamer I found something about the Canadian man I mentioned who was convicted of hate speach. The gag order in particular worries me. What did you think of Cordoba?
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29483 IP: Logged |
LittleLadyLeo
unregistered
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posted February 19, 2006 12:45 PM
Why must people use Freedom of Speech as an excuse for bad manners? That is all this, and so many things, really are. Why is one person's opinion more important than another person's feelings? Instead of saying to someone, "You're an idiot!" why can't we say, "Have you looked at it this way?" Maybe if we spent more time teaching manners to our children we wouldn't have to spend so much time teaching 'political correctness.'Just a thought. LLL IP: Logged |
DayDreamer
unregistered
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posted February 19, 2006 09:30 PM
Hello Tink, quote:
The pamphlet said: "The Muslims who commit these crimes are no different than the Muslim believers living here in Toronto. Their beliefs are based on the Quran. They sound peaceful, but underneath their false sheep's clothing are raging wolves seeking whom they may devour. And Toronto is definitely on their hit list."
This is a perfect example of how hate is inspired not only against the man who created the pamplets, but against Muslims as well. LittleLadyLeo, you worded my feelings exactly.  And about the Cordoba article...I'm still in the process of reading it indepth. I've skimmed a few chapters. So far it appears that those ruling during the period between 850 and 859 were not following Islamic Law and so some Christian martyrs paid dearly with their lives.  There is so much history to Cordoba Spain. Does the Library of Iberian Resources Online go into other aspects of Spain's vast and rich history? At the end of it all though the Muslims also paid dearly for all that they brought to Cordoba, Europe and this World today. The Spanish Inquisition forced their conversion to Christianty, and if they didn't they were either slaughtered or driven across Strait of Gibraltor. No Muslims was left on the Iberian Penninsula. And all this was happening while Columbus was discovering America. IP: Logged |
TINK
unregistered
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posted February 19, 2006 11:42 PM
I imagine this Harding man is a bit of a wacko. (Although, I do agree with his stance on prayer in public schools.) He certainly seems to be a hateful, paranoid sort and if he tried to shove one of his pamphlets in my face I'd tell him to go to hell. Nevertheless, I stand by his right to pass out that nasty pamphlet.No one likes rude behavior ... but do we really want rude behavior to be illegal? That's the only article I've read from that source, so I couldn't say. The Muslim entrance into Europe and the resulting merge/clash of the two cultures really is a remarkably interesting story. I think the thing about the Cordoba story that first caught my attention, besides the fact that it's not well known, was the role reversal. Listening to the Muslim politician calmly trying to talk the Christian minority out of what he saw as irrational and fanatical protests ... well it was just a fun change.  Human nature really doesn't change much. IP: Logged |
DayDreamer
unregistered
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posted February 20, 2006 12:44 AM
quote:
No one likes rude behavior ... but do we really want rude behavior to be illegal?
Good question Tink. But I dont think there will ever be an easy answer. What defines rude behaviour? And could making some degrees of it illegal be a good preventative measure against a snowball effect that escalates into violence and destruction? IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted February 20, 2006 07:37 AM
You cannot legislate rude behavior. That's just silly. Nor can you enforce manners on people. Manners are relative.That's just like Bush wanting to criminalize "disruptive behavior"... AKA disagreeing with what he believes. A fanatic is a fanatic, and a fanatic wants you to believe and behave the way he or she sees fit according to their personal beliefs. Whether you are fanatical about manners, rude behavior, politics, or religion... a fanatic is still a fanatic, and fanatics are seriously un-evolved. I do not have to agree with your ideals, nor do you have to agree with mine. Personally, I don't want to see any of you jailed for having different values than I have... regardless of how strongly I disagree with them. (Although, seeing Bush in handcuffs would give me a twinge of satisfaction. ) IP: Logged |
TINK
unregistered
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posted February 20, 2006 09:42 AM
Could we all decide on the degree? If it is done to prevente violence and destruction, aren't we then catering to the lowest common denominator of society? What will the violent and destructive want from us next? Can we allow ourselves and our laws to be held hostage by these elements? Are the offended Muslims willing to see their imans jailed for saying Jesus was only a prophet and did not die on the cross? I imagine this infuriates many Christians. Should Catholic bishops be jailed for speaking out against homosexuality, or should we ban homosexuality so as not to offend the Catholics? Do we have enough prison cells for all the atheists? Were does it end? quote:
Personally, I don't want to see any of you jailed for having different values than I have... regardless of how strongly I disagree with them.
this freedom stuff is an always messy and sometimes painful new venture, but I'm not going back.  IP: Logged |
DayDreamer
unregistered
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posted February 20, 2006 07:41 PM
quote:
You cannot legislate rude behavior. That's just silly. Nor can you enforce manners on people. Manners are relative.
Of course. But what defines rude behaviour? Rude behaviour, just vile words or even petty cartoons can have the power to create much upheaval...especially during a period and in many places of political unrest and war. And it also goes back to intentions. For example, just what were the intentions of the cartoonists, or that Cdn man charged for the hate crime? IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
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posted February 21, 2006 11:26 AM
I would imagine, though I have not spoken with them, the artist of the cartoons was trying to get a rise out of the sociopaths that think it's okay to force their religious beliefs on the rest of the world.Unfortunately, innocent people found themselves offended too... BUT, I'll bet their mission was accomplished. I'm pretty sure the fanatical, Islamic sociopaths were/are offended. *edited to add* We can't go around telling people what to think is funny when we don't agree. If there's something on TV you don't like, CHANGE THE CHANNEL... it's none of your business if someone else wants to watch it. If there is a show on the radio (Howard Stern, for instance) that you find offensive, CHANGE THE STATION... don't force your beliefs of what is funny or offensive onto others. No one is forced to pay attention to any specific media. Turn the page, change the channel, change the station, but DON'T force your beliefs on others. I am completely against censorship. Censorship is simply another way for The Man to keep us in check. IP: Logged |
DayDreamer
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posted February 21, 2006 11:47 PM
Why would the cartoonists want a rise out of the sociopaths? And why do it this way? So it's ok to totally disregard the rest of the billion+ Muslims in the process, in favour of getting a rise out of a small percentage of sociopaths?Anyhoo, despite the negativity I do see some good things that has come as a result of this brouhaha: Muslims are questioning what parts of their ideologies and beliefs are actually part of Islam, and I've also noticed Muslims are becoming more united. Well I think a lot of what's on tv seriously needs to be altered when it has nothing valuable to offer but to debase God's creations. Sorry Im a Muslim living in North America so I can't but help see and hear some of the propaganda on this side of the world. It's in everyone's face. I have nothing against the idea or those who are against censorship. They can live their life and do as they please. But if it involves attacking or belittling outside parties then you can bet things will be rattled. IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
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posted February 22, 2006 12:18 AM
I think most people take themselves entirely too seriously... especially the religious. quote:
Well I think a lot of what's on tv seriously needs to be altered when it has nothing valuable to offer but to debase God's creations.
This is exactly what I mean about taking yourself too seriously. Typically, when watching TV, one isn't worrying themselves with the thought of "God's Creation". I know when I want to sit down and unwind (or, stop taking myself and everything else so seriously), I like to watch something funny on TV... often something with a lot of foul language. That is what I find funny. I enjoy George Carlin and his long list of obscene words you're not supposed to use in society. I would imagine living here in this time as a Muslim cannot be easy. There are a lot of backward @ssed white people out there that just want to hate based on the color of skin. It's disgusting, really... but I think that is all going to be changing in this country. All those old, rich, white, southern men are going to die off soon. That will be a good start. Their spawn have to be less bigoted than they are... with each generation bigotry will be washed away like the gutter scum when the street sweeper comes. IP: Logged |
DayDreamer
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posted February 22, 2006 12:40 AM
I think people need to be more serious, responsible and sensitive in these times...these times of enormous change. Also want to say that the cartoons weren't intended to be funny. Who's the target audience they're trying to make laugh? IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
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posted February 22, 2006 10:02 AM
Well then... agree to disagree I'll have my fun and make sure not to take myself (or anyone else) too seriously, you be all serious all the time... we'll see who had a more enjoyable life at the end, k? IP: Logged | |
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