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Author Topic:   Would you publish those cartoons?
Yang
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posted February 05, 2006 02:07 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi guys

If you were an editor of a newspaper, would you published those cartoons of the prophet Mohammed? Yes or No, why?

I will give you my answer when there is sufficent answers from you guys!

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Johnny
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posted February 07, 2006 12:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Johnny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would. I'd not see free-speech impinged in *my* paper for the sake of religion, no matter whose religion it was.

I take it by the that you wouldn't?

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DayDreamer
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posted February 07, 2006 12:31 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yang, I think you probably figured out what I'd say. If it's disrespectful and has the potential to inspire hate and violence then I wouldnt put in my paper.

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SecretGardenAgain
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posted February 07, 2006 02:06 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, and the entire moral/ethical systems of universal human rights encompassing freedom of speech cannot be extended or expected to be abided by other societies or humans. Although there are some universal moral principles, 'freedom of speech' does not even really rank in the top five accepted, historically and sociologically, by most cultures. Besides, many cultures don't even buy the whole deontology view of ethics, they may look at it in a teleological way or otherwise.

Love
SG

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Johnny
Newflake

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posted February 07, 2006 02:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Johnny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Yes, and the entire moral/ethical systems of universal human rights encompassing freedom of speech cannot be extended or expected to be abided by other societies or humans.

If I cannot expect other cultures to value freedom of expression, then other cultures cannot expect me to care that said freedom in my culture offends them.

quote:
Although there are some universal moral principles, 'freedom of speech' does not even really rank in the top five accepted, historically and sociologically, by most cultures.

It shows. How I love the West!

quote:
Besides, many cultures don't even buy the whole deontology view of ethics, they may look at it in a teleological way or otherwise.

I'm not exactly sure how freedom of expression fits in with the theory of deontology. Care to elaborate?


Regardless, I still hold that individual freedom trumps any desire to *not* offend a group.

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lalalinda
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From: nevada
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posted February 07, 2006 09:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lalalinda     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm lost here. I've been hearing about those cartoons but so far haven't actually seen them.
I have looked to get an idea of what the hoopla is about. But so far nothing.

If the cartoons are disrespectful or sacreligeous I would not print them.

There is only one God and he goes by many names. To make light of their God is to do the same to our own

Lets be mindful of our brothers points of views and try to be decent and bestow some of that famous LL love. OK?

he ain't heavy, hes my brother

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Yang
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posted February 07, 2006 12:45 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mmm, very interesting answers here.

Now for my answer * drum rolls please* NO!

First of all,I wouldn't publish the cartoons due to respect for other people's religion and the fact that it would cause violence.
Second of all, I would want to ensure the safety of my staff, and me, if I had to publish the cartoons. I wouldn't want me, nor my staff, to be harassed, or even worse killed, by Muslim extremists!

Lalalinda- if you want to see the cartoons, I suggest you go on the Google site, click on the images link and type in Prophet Mohammed. You will see a whole bunch of the cartoons that have been in the news.

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AcousticGod
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From: Pleasanton, CA
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posted February 07, 2006 01:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yang,

I tried that search, and there weren't many cartoons using that search at all.

Why would publishing these cartoons inspire violence? Is Islam about being violent? Is Islam about seeking retribution?

-------------------

I'm with Johnny on this.

I'm not altogether familiar with the religion in question, but in my own value system I don't see the problem. I was raised a Christian, and still like Jesus' principles, but I don't mind at all seeing Jesus on South Park in the way he's portrayed there. It certainly wouldn't inspire me to violence.

Perhaps this is a Karma issue. Perhaps the commentary that's being made is necessary for this day and age in order to facilitate meaningful change.

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proxieme
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posted February 07, 2006 02:12 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Would I publish?
Probably not.
Unless I ran a zine which has a sole purpose of mocking religion/the sacred.
(Weirder things have happened...)

Do I mind that someone else has published them?
Not really.
I find them distasteful and crude...but there's a lot of distasteful and crude stuff out there.

It seems that a problem that many in the "West" are having with these cartoons and the reaction to them is that many don't see anything as sacred enough to get that unchuffed about mocking satire.

It's really quite a chasm when you look at it.

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AcousticGod
Knowflake

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posted February 07, 2006 02:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I see it that way as well. Just like some people can take a joke involving their mother, and some can't.

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Johnny
Newflake

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From: Egypt
Registered: Apr 2010

posted February 07, 2006 08:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Johnny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
First of all,I wouldn't publish the cartoons due to respect for other people's religion and the fact that it would cause violence.
(emphasis mine )

Heh, Yang, publishing the cartoons didn't cause any violence - religious fanatics caused the violence. If these nutcases are so zealous about their religion that they'd kill over a *cartoon*, I don't think their opinions are even worth considering.

No offense intended, of course.

I've not seen the cartoons either, but I've heard that all 12 of the cartoonists who drew them are in hiding, fearing for their lives. Is it just me, or are we not focusing on the real issue here?

This reminds me of a quote I heard once, by someone named Vique. "A man without religion is like a fish without a bicycle."

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Petron
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posted February 07, 2006 09:02 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's best-selling newspaper has launched a competition to find the best cartoon about the Holocaust in retaliation for the publication in many European countries of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad.

The Iranian daily Hamshahri said the contest was designed to test the boundaries of free speech -- the reason given by many European newspapers for publishing the cartoons of the Prophet.

"Does Western free speech allow working on issues like America and Israel's crimes or an incident like the Holocaust or is this freedom of speech only good for insulting the holy values of divine religions?" the paper asked.

Davoud Kazemi, who is in charge of the contest, told Reuters that each of the 12 winners would have their cartoons published and receive two gold coins (worth about $140 each) as a prize.


Iranian protesters hurled petrol bombs and stones at the Danish Embassy in Tehran for a second successive day on Tuesday and Tehran announced it had cut all trade ties with Denmark.


http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2006-02-07T152958Z_01_L07723729_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-CARTOONS-IRAN-HOLOCAUST.xml&rpc=22

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DayDreamer
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posted February 07, 2006 09:28 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Johnny, I feel and I'm sure most Muslims feel embarassed that these "Muslims" you see and hear about on the media are resorting to violence and chanting murder threats over a cartoon even of someone so highly regarded as the Prophet. Muslims true to their faith believe that killing one person is like killing all of humanity. Printing those cartoons was the perfect chance for zealots, gangs, opportunists to stir a ruckus.

Petron, I heard about that one...as a contest to test the boundaries of freedom of speech. Don't want to imagine what will happen if they actually go ahead with it.

I thought this was a good analysis...

Outrage born from a broader sense of alienation

....Why did these particular drawings provoke such a storm?

"I would argue that the genesis of this whole controversy has a lot more to do with the position in which Muslims find themselves in Europe than with Islamic theology," Dr Safi said.

"I think that some of the same kinds of questions that Europeans asked about Jews a hundred years ago are now being asked of Muslims. Namely, can these people ever be proper citizens of Europe if their loyalties and allegiances lie elsewhere?"

To Westerners who wonder why Muslim sensitivities should trump free speech, Muslims respond with accusations of hypocrisy.

"The West likes to frame this as a free speech issue, but there are many categories of restricted speech: for instance, eight countries in Europe ban speech denying the Holocaust. You can call our prophet a terrorist, but you cannot question the Holocaust?" said Muqtedar Khan, of the University of Delaware.

http://smh.com.au/news/world/outrage-born-from-a-broader-sense-of-al ienation/2006/02/07/1139074228935.html

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Johnny
Newflake

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From: Egypt
Registered: Apr 2010

posted February 07, 2006 09:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Johnny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Johnny, I feel and I'm sure most Muslims feel embarassed that these "Muslims" you see and hear about on the media are resorting to violence and chanting murder threats over a cartoon even of someone so highly regarded as the Prophet. Muslims true to their faith believe that killing one person is like killing all of humanity. Printing those cartoons was the perfect chance for zealots, gangs, opportunists to stir a ruckus.

I was waiting for someone to say that! Thanks, DayDreamer - I am aware that what you say is true.

In regard to the holocaust comics - I'm 100% behind the daily Hamshahri on that. It *is* absolutely hypocritical (not to mention thoroughly disgusting) for European countries (and Canada) to put laws in place banning holocaust denial - calling it "hate speech." I can definetly see where the people who thought up this contest are coming from...

More power to 'em, I say.


quote:
"I would argue that the genesis of this whole controversy has a lot more to do with the position in which Muslims find themselves in Europe than with Islamic theology," Dr Safi said.

"I think that some of the same kinds of questions that Europeans asked about Jews a hundred years ago are now being asked of Muslims. Namely, can these people ever be proper citizens of Europe if their loyalties and allegiances lie elsewhere?"


This doesn't explain why Muslims in Iran are angry.

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DayDreamer
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posted February 07, 2006 10:24 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
This doesn't explain why Muslims in Iran are angry.

No that particular quote I gave you doesn't, and it barely touches on why Muslims in Europe feel that way either. I can't really speak for the Muslims in Iran. Every individual has their own views and opinions on such matters. My feeling though is that most Iranians aren't as angry as the media makes them out to be. And I would also suspect that they are worried about the way their president is presenting himself and the nation.

Of course, most Muslims were probably angry and upset over the cartoons, but that doesnt mean they acted upon it by violent means. Now why would Iranians, and other Muslims around the world be angry over the cartoons?...Maybe because of the state of Muslims in the world today. Muslims feel they are constantly being attacked. Most of the refugees in the world are Muslims, and many are products of war and feel as the title of that article said, alientated.

Actually, a part of the article I didn't paste, again briefly touches on the issue...

"Do you know the atrocities that are happening to Muslims every day?" one demanded. "In Iraq? In Pakistan? In Palestine? Muslims feel as if we are under siege."

The deep offence many Muslims have taken to the cartoons is about present-day politics as much as theology.

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Johnny
Newflake

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From: Egypt
Registered: Apr 2010

posted February 07, 2006 10:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Johnny     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ah.

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LibraSparkle
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posted February 07, 2006 11:22 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm going to have to be Libra-ish here. I can't help it...

I really don't know which I would choose. Perhaps I should be careful not to become an editor.

Johnny makes some really good points about freedom.

BUT (are you ready for it?)...

On the other hand ...

The feelings of others do matter (although, they are not protected by any law), and not all Muslims are fanatical whack jobs... just like all Christians aren't fanatical whack jobs.

Maybe what they should have done is printed a cartoon making fun of Christianity along side it... cover all of their offensive bases.

This debate makes me think of this image I came across while surfing the other day. I'm going to go see about finding it and posting it.

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TINK
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posted February 07, 2006 11:46 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hurt feelings and fanatics aside, my understanding of Islamic Law is that blasphemy really is punishable by death, although this applies only to Muslims themselves. The act of blasphemy immediately makes one an apostate, which is also punishable by death for men. (imprisonment for woman, I think) The problem is, the Sharia also states that a Muslim should abide the laws of a non-Muslim country, provided that country allows him religious freedom. So there's a little catch 22 there. I've read quite a few statements from European Muslims saying the only way around this is to get involved politically and change European law. I imagine that scares quite a few Europeans. Visions of guillotines and burning stakes dancing in their heads again, no doubt.

In fairness( I'm feeling Libra-ish too), several European countries (and US states!) still have blasphemy laws on the books. Most of them only consider blasphemy against Christianity an offense though and fines or a short imprisonment are the recommended forms of punishment.

"I think that some of the same kinds of questions that Europeans asked about Jews a hundred years ago are now being asked of Muslims. Namely, can these people ever be proper citizens of Europe if their loyalties and allegiances lie elsewhere?"

that's very insightful.

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DayDreamer
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posted February 08, 2006 12:40 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Quick answer to:
quote:
my understanding of Islamic Law is that blasphemy really is punishable by death, although this applies only to Muslims themselves. The act of blasphemy immediately makes one an apostate, which is also punishable by death for men. (imprisonment for woman, I think)

It doesn't take an Islamic scholar to say that Sharia/Islamic Law cannot override God's word if it's in contradiction. I'm not denying that it may be in the Sharia of some Muslim Nations...which is unfortunate and needs to be changed, and Im sure will be. Actually, of all the nations in the world, I would say Canada is the most Islamic

Anyhoo, guidance God sent down via the Quran states, “let there be no compulsion in religion” (2:256) and “let him who will, believe, and let him who will, reject [God’s truth]” (18:29). No where in the Quran does it say to kill someone who rejects or blasphemes against God and one's faith. Only God will judge at the end.

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ozonefiller
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posted February 08, 2006 04:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Gee, it must be nice to live in a country that it's OK to mock God, but God forbid if you ever mock your president in this country and call it "Freedom of Expression"!

Did someone say "Dixie Chicks" or was that "Linda Ronstadt"?!

Either or, I've remembered not too long ago of the reaction that people got for criticising or mocking such a prominate figure(including myself) of the western world and he's not even God to most of us! Nonetheless, you would think that we would have seen some heads about to roll for such "inflammatory allegations"!

Holy Shi'ite! I wonder what good 'ol Pat Robertson would say to all this crazy, violent, religous nonsense?!

--------------------------------------------

Two Dead in Afghan Protests Over Drawings By DANIEL COONEY, Associated Press Writer
22 minutes ago


KABUL, Afghanistan - Afghanistan's top Islamic organization on Wednesday called for an end to violent protests against drawings of the Prophet Muhammad, as police shot dead two protesters to stop an angry crowd from marching on a U.S. military base in the southern part of the country.


Fourteen people were wounded in the clash in Qalat city, including ten protesters and four Afghan security forces who were struck by flying rocks, said Ahmad Khan, a doctor at the city's main hospital.

The clash came a day after international peacekeepers exchanged fire with protesters in a remote northern Afghan city, leaving three demonstrators dead and prompting NATO to send reinforcements.

As a third day of bloody unrest began across the country, members of Afghanistan's Ulama Council, the country's top Islamic clerics' organization, went on radio and television to appeal for calm.

"Islam says it's all right to demonstrate but not to resort to violence. This must stop," senior cleric Mohammed Usman told The Associated Press. "We condemn the cartoons but this does not justify violence. These rioters are defaming the name of Islam."

Senior Afghan officials said al-Qaida and the Taliban could be exploiting anger over the cartoons to incite violence.

Demonstrations rumbled on around the Muslim world on Tuesday, and the political repercussions deepened, with Iran suspending all trade and economic ties with Denmark, where the drawings were first published. The Danish prime minister called the protests a global crisis and appealed for calm.

In a new turn, a prominent Iranian newspaper, Hamshahri, invited artists to enter a Holocaust cartoon competition, saying it wanted to see if freedom of expression — the banner under which many Western publications reprinted the prophet drawings — also applied to Holocaust images.

An aid group that provides food to tens of thousands of people in the war-ravaged Chechnya region of Russia suspended its operations after Chechen officials banned all Danish organizations because of the cartoons. The Danish Refugee Council distributes food to some 250,000 people in mostly Muslim Chechnya and the surrounding area.

The drawings — including one depicting the prophet wearing a turban shaped as a bomb — have touched a raw nerve among Muslims. Islam is interpreted to forbid any illustrations of Muhammad for fear they could lead to idolatry.

Violence has escalated sharply in Afghanistan this week, and nine people have died in demonstrations during the past three days. Protests, sometimes involving armed men, have been directed at foreign and Afghan government targets — fueling suspicions there's more behind the unrest than religious sensitivities.

"It's an incredibly emotive issue. This is something that really upset Afghans," said Joanna Nathan, senior Afghanistan analyst at the International Crisis Group, a Brussels-based research institute. "But it is also being used to agitate and motivate the crowds by those against the government and foreign forces" in Afghanistan.

The heads of the U.N., European Union and the world's largest Islamic group urged the violent protests to stop.

"Aggression against life and property can only damage the image of a peaceful Islam," said a statement released jointly Tuesday by Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu of the Organization of the Islamic Conference, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan and the EU chief Javier Solana.

Wednesday's clash began when about 500 demonstrators threw stones at police outside the U.S. military base in Qalat. The city's police chief, Abdul Bari, said police initially fired in the air, but they then were forced to fire on the crowd.

A U.S. military spokesman, Lt. Mike Cody, said he had no details on the matter.

On Tuesday, protesters armed with assault rifles and grenades attacked the NATO base in the northern city of Maymana, which is manned by peacekeepers from Norway, Finland, Latvia and Sweden, local officials said.

Sayed Aslam Ziaratia, the provincial deputy police chief, said three protesters were shot and killed by Afghan and Norwegian forces and that 22 others were wounded. However, NATO said it only fired live ammunition into the air and rubber bullets. Five Norwegian peacekeepers suffered minor injuries.

Provincial governor Mohammed Latif said he suspected al-Qaida may have had a hand in the unrest. He said two men from eastern Afghanistan were arrested during the protest and were being interrogated.

"The violence today looked like a massive uprising. It was very unusual," Latif said.

On Monday, about 2,000 protesters tried to storm the main U.S. military base at Bagram, the hub of the operations for some 20,000 American forces in the country. Police shot dead two protesters. A top local official said al-Qaida and Taliban militants incited the crowd.

Defense Minister Abdul Rahim Wardak told The Associated Press by telephone Tuesday that it was possible militants egged on the demonstrators, but he stressed the government has no evidence.

"Once these crowds get together, they often get out of control, here and in other countries," he said. "But if this goes on, we're going to have to take a closer look to see if there is more behind it."

The unrest in Maymana prompted NATO to send 150 British troops to help secure the base, and two American A-10 attack aircraft were flown to the city. The U.N. evacuated nonessential staff.

In Washington, President Bush called Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen to express "our solidarity and support." A Danish newspaper first printed the cartoons of Muhammad in September, and they were reprinted this month by other European papers, setting off a new round of protests.

Bush and Fogh Rasmussen agreed that all sides must move forward "through dialogue and tolerance, not violence," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.

In Copenhagen, Fogh Rasmussen showed no sign of diverting from his government's stance that it cannot apologize for the actions of an independent newspaper, as demanded by governments in several Muslim nations.

Fogh Rasmussen called the protests "a growing global crisis."

Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said Tuesday that publication of the caricatures was an Israeli conspiracy motivated by anger over the victory of the militant Hamas group in last month's Palestinian elections.

"The West condemns any denial of the Jewish Holocaust, but it permits the insult of Islamic sanctities," Khamenei said.

Tuesday saw the biggest protest yet in Pakistan, where 5,000 people chanted, "Hang the man who insulted the prophet," and burned effigies of one cartoonist and Denmark's prime minister. The rally ended peacefully.

Thousands of Egyptians and Jordanians also demonstrated peacefully, calling for a boycott of Danish products and the cutting of ties with Copenhagen.

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WaterNymph
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posted February 08, 2006 05:18 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No.

There’s a difference between making fun of my religion and making fun of others.
It’s kind of like, I can make fun of my mum, but you can’t.

Free speech has it’s limits - lets not go crazy if a cartoon were made…where they were mocking a murder or rape victim, would that be ok?

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ozonefiller
Newflake

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posted February 08, 2006 05:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would rather see Bush nailed to a cross, would that be OK?!

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WaterNymph
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posted February 08, 2006 05:55 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
lol

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Yang
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posted February 08, 2006 07:11 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Listen to this: I read this in a paper.

A 16 year old pupil was arrested for killing a Roman Catholic priest. He has confessed to killing the priest!
And get this: he was influenced by the cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed.
The priest was gunned down on Sunday while he was praying!

Johnny- wouldn't you think the cartoons are a catalyst for the violence that has occured?

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proxieme
unregistered
posted February 08, 2006 09:11 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Three things.
quote:
"The West likes to frame this as a free speech issue, but there are many categories of restricted speech: for instance, eight countries in Europe ban speech denying the Holocaust. You can call our prophet a terrorist, but you cannot question the Holocaust?" said Muqtedar Khan, of the University of Delaware.

But Danes do not riot when Iranians deny they Holocaust...

and

quote:
Free speech has it’s limits - lets not go crazy if a cartoon were made…where they were mocking a murder or rape victim, would that be ok?

...What about cartoons mocking that chick raped by Kobe Bryant?
Again...deplorable?
Yes.
Illegal (at least in the U S of A)?
No.
quote:
Muslims feel they are constantly being attacked. Most of the refugees in the world are Muslims,

But, honestly, how many of those people are refugees because of Muslim on Muslim violence?
(See: Sudan)
How many more are refugees because some sect has started a seperatist movement in their native country because they don't feel that non-Muslims have any right to govern them?

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