posted July 15, 2006 03:39 PM              

------------------
"WHATEVER the soul longs for, WILL be attained by the spirit"

"Love knows not its own depth until the hour of separation"

posted July 15, 2006 04:40 PM              

Sure, they COULD get along. But, that would mean dismissing each other's wrong doings, and agreeing on a concrete peace plan. Israel has made several concessions over the years, but it's never enough.

I'm trying to be utterly unbiased here, but the more I read, from unbiased sources, the more it looks like it's the Arabs who don't want peace with Israel. They just want them gone.

posted July 15, 2006 04:51 PM              

------------------
"WHATEVER the soul longs for, WILL be attained by the spirit"

"Love knows not its own depth until the hour of separation"

posted July 15, 2006 05:10 PM              

DayDreamer provided a great link that contains alot of factual info about the background of the situation - it goes all the way back to the turn of the century.

here it is: http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

posted July 15, 2006 06:00 PM              

Whose fault? The Blame Game in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
07/07/2006

quote:

---

These observations, while very general, are applicable to the current standoff in Gaza and to every other aspect of the Palestinian - Israeli conflict, or any other conflict for that matter.

The basis of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the competition between two legitimate claims on the one hand, and the fact that as often happens, each side ignores the claims of the other.

At one time there were several options to solve those claims that might have worked, such as a binational state, partition with economic union etc.

However, while very little effort was invested in advancing and protecting workable solutions, a huge effort was invested in advancing non-solutions that took into account the needs of only one side. This effort succeed in perpetuating the conflict and narrowing the options for workable solutions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These dead end non-solutions were invariably based on the assumptions that:

a- one side is "to blame" and
b- if only we push hard enough, the other side will be pushed either into the sea or into the desert.

The lobby against peace is huge. It includes Greater Israel people, most Arab and Muslim states, doctrinaire anti-Zionists and extremist groups like Hamas. In the 1930s it was fueled by the Axis powers. In the 1950s -80s by the USSR. In the 70s and 80s it was fueled by US complicity in Israeli settlement activity, because US had to be for anything USSR was against.

Most of the people working against peace (often under the guise of working for peace) have no real interest whatever in the welfare of either side. The Arab states just want to get rid of Israel and don't care what happens to the Palestinian Arabs or the Jews. Despotic Muslim and Arab regimes use the Israel issue to divert discontent from their own shortcomings. Professional anti-Zionists, regardless of cant about "compassion" and human rights and "justice," are not interested in peaceful solutions or Palestinian rights, but rather in vindicating their anti-Zionism. As long as Israel is constantly delegitimized and eventually, they hope, destroyed, it doesn't really matter to them what happens to the Arabs of Palestine or how many generations of Palestinian Arabs will suffer in refugee camps.

Every group with "Justice" for Palestine in its name is out to destroy my country and evict me. In addition to any personal objections I might have to such "justice,' it will not serve the interests of justice or really bring lasting peace. They are only offering programs to advance their own ideology at the cost of great misery to Arab and Jew alike. The same is true of the vocal and fairly large groups of Zionist extremists in the USA, who want to defend "the territories" to the last Israeli soldiers, and to evict the Arab Palestinians or subjugate them, because GOD gave the land to them.

By now the ideologues have all built up a great literature of blame. Hundreds and thousands of pages "prove" conclusively that one side or the other is exclusively to blame for the conflict, and each new event is assimilated to this literature on each side. This does nothing to solve the conflict. On the contrary, it is fuel for the conflict.

Likewise, all the great powers have at bottom always been seeking to use the conflict to best further their own interests, rather than actually working for peace. The USA wants peace, but it has to be a peace that is attuned to US interests. This even came down to US interference with the schedule of Israeli-Jordanian negotiations in order to make sure that President Clinton got the right photo-opportunity and credit for making peace. From the point of view of the USA, the major features of "peace" are that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict should "go away" at least to the point where it doesn't interfere with US relations with Arab and Muslim countries, and that the US should get the credit for making the peace and should be vital to maintaining it, so that regional countries are dependent on the US. That is the essence of Henry Kissinger's policies, and has not really changed except for nuances.

The USSR did not want peace, nor did they really desire the destruction of Israel. Rather, they wanted a perpetual conflict situation that could be used to embarrass the United States and further Soviet influence. This very competent if diabolical Soviet foreign policy left us a legacy of rhetoric about Zionist colonialism that does nothing to advance either peace or our understanding of the conflict.
The European Union wants peace, but they want to play the part of the Americans, making and getting the credit and influence for it, and so they try to trip up US efforts. Like the USSR in its time, they are also not too dissatisfied if Israel remains an embarrassment for the US. Therefore, each party chooses someone to blame, and someone to help.

Many billions of dollars have been invested in creating and maintaining and nourishing this conflict, based on the "who is to blame" model, and very little effort was invested in solving the problems. Therefore the refugees are still in camps, so that Israel can be blamed for that, and the Israelis are still in settlements, and the Hamas are nourished along by indirection and "benign" neglect, and the siege of Gaza is tolerated and ignored along with the rain of Qassam rockets on Sderot.

The result of nurturing the blame game is that over the years different options closed out. We cannot have a binational state or a one state solution, because today that is like putting 50 dogs and 50 cats in a room and locking the door. We can't have economic union because the terror groups will use it as a means to carry out what they call "operations" - murder of civilians.

There are only two options left - a two state solution or winner take all. All those who justify the Hamas are supporting the winner take all solution and closing out the two state solution, and likewise those who support Greater Israel are making peace impossible. Each does it because of their ideologies - luxuries that neither real Israelis nor actual Palestinians can really afford.

There are two sides. Those against violence and for protecting the rights of Palestinian Arabs and Israelis are on one side. Those who justify violence and look for which side is to blame are on the other side. The latter are always part of the problem. If anyone wants to know whose fault the conflict is, it is their fault.

Ami Isseroff

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* This essay grew out of a discussion in the MidEastWeb e-dialogue group, where a member pressed the issue of "who is to blame?" in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Copyright 2006 by the author.

posted July 15, 2006 10:15 PM              

Don't judge.

posted July 16, 2006 01:03 AM              

The blame game certainly leads to nowhere productive. The same could be said for the Iraqi situation. (not trying to derail this thread though)

But, that's not to say that the particulars shouldn't be looked at, especially when they are creating ongoing conflict.

posted July 16, 2006 11:34 AM              

The best solution is for both sides to shut the hell up and quit being so damn thick headed.

------------------
Gemini sun, Cancer ascendant, Taurus moon *29, Taurus venus, Libra mars
*----------*----------*
Things base and vile, holding no quantity,
Love can transpose to form and dignity.
Love looks not with the eye, but with the mind,
And therefore is winged Cupid painted blind.

posted July 17, 2006 12:08 PM              

I do see the Israeli govt as institutionalized oppression against the Palis but I also condemn Hezbollah strongly, and do not support Hamas (altho people must understand that Hamas is the ONLY organization in this part of the world that provides education, and food to orphans and shelter to Palestinian widows). IF the Israeli govt or Fatah party tried to do that Hamas would NOT have won the election.

There was no overriding resentment or hatred in the air, just tension. Many Palis and Israelis do live and walk in the street and in the same area (altho Palis do generally have poorer areas and are being gerrymandered out of their farming lands), and generally they get along fine. Old City Jerusalem is partitioned into four parts (Armenian, Greek Orthodox, Arab Muslim, and Israeli or Jewish quarters) without any clear boundaries. People wander all the time without violence, but there is discrimination.

It takes AGES to change mentalities.

Ive posted this article again but its a MUST READ:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051107/palestinianboy_organs_051107/20051107?hub=TopStories

Its an example of forgiveness and karam as we say in arabic--the spirit of giving in Islam. Its an example of peaceful coexistence.

posted July 17, 2006 09:12 PM              

I have a question. Why do the Pali's stay in refugee camps, instead of moving away to other Arab towns & cities, where their families may have better opportunities, and better living conditions?

Also, why don't they work on improving their own infrastructure and living conditions, rather than sitting around resenting the Israeli's for having all the 'good things in life', and not giving the same to them? I don't mean for this to sound critical. Perhaps there are real barriers in the way, preventing them from modernizing and improving their own living conditions ??

posted July 19, 2006 12:52 PM              

Firstly, Palis have moved away in large numbers to Egypt, Syria and Jordan. There is a huge amount of Palis who are refugees here or even have permanently moved here for better life. Particularly the Pali Christians (Greek Orthodox and some Armenians) have reduced DRASTICALLY in numbers. They were about 12 or 14 percent of the population before, but now theyre less than 2 percent of the Israeli population. The question is, is this right? Why should people leave their homes for the oppression of the Israeli government? Do you think this isnt forced exile or a form of ethnic cleansing with pressure on making people leave their homes? This is exactly what the Israeli government wants, and why it is building the walls around Jerusalem to intercept Palestinians from their farm land. Many have been intercepted and have lost any access to their earnings. In other occasions people have intervened, one of the more prominent groups being Rabbis for Humanity, they are a great group who have taken a stand to the Israeli govt for rebuilding the wall in some places for greater justice to the Palis. But do you see that the Palis wouldnt be heard in court, the Rabbis for Humanity had to step in for them? I think that is unfair in the extreme.

While many Palis do leave, many others stay because they don't want to leave the land that they and their forefathers have been living in for a while. If this seems silly, so should Israelis' reasons to live in Israel be--they have an emotional and historical affiliation as well.

I am not endorsing this point by the way only presenting their point of view. I personally believe that the Palis should all vacate Israel. And Ill later explain why.

Palis dont 'sit around resenting the Israelis' , you make it sound like theyre very lazy. Let me give you a few examples. There were quite a few Pali tour guides because tourism is a major part of Israels economy (with all the amazing Christian, Jewish AND Muslim history there, its no wonder!). But recently the government of Israel has passed a law that tour guides must have tourism licenses to be guides. And if they don't they are not recommended and not allowed legally to be tour guides. In order to get the license you must go to the Israeli tourism institute that trains the guides, and they only allow Israeli nationals to be tour guides. In essence, they are eliminating Palis from being tour guides.

Another example would be that of teachers. To be a teacher you need a Masters or PhD. The Israels have barred many Palestinian men and are in the process of passing a law where Palestinians cannot have seats in higher education in Israeli schools. This would make them unable to get good quality higher education and thus be anything beyond a Bachelors. The Palestinian schools, for lack of funding, take in the textbooks thrown in the dumpsters by the Israelis, which are used and old. So obviously the quality of education is going down. About forty years ago Palestinians had one of the highest literacy and post graduate degree rates in the world, and Im not joking. Even today 80 percent of Palestinians have an education beyond a Bachelors because theyre culture strongly endorses it. But now it is dwindling. In essence the Israelis are trying to 'dumb' them down.

Also, Palestinians are being separated in terms of health care. Whats strange is that a major hospital on Mount Zion, whose name I dont remember, was a Palestinian hospital established prior to Jewish settlement in the area even. After the creation of Israel it was turned into a Jewish hospital barring Palestinian entrance, and the Pali dr.s were replaced with Jewish ones.

The point is only that the Palestinians werent these barbaric people and the Israels came and built resources with the Palis now covet. In fact a lot of development was going on in Palestine prior to the creation of Israel. the occupation of the land, and the resources accompanying it, have excluded the Palis from the resources and taken economic power from them so that they cant afford to establish their own resources. I do admit Israel has established many many resources and infrastructure , much more than the Palis had to begin with. But its not jealousy of these resources, but the fact that even the old ones are not available to Pali, and that if the resources are being taken from the wealth of the land, it should be available to everyone living on that land.

There is another factor to consider. Egypt and Jordanian governments in particular are of no help to Palestine although they really should be. So of course this is their fault that needs to be recognized. Jordan lost East Jerusalem in the war, and totally withdrew. It helps Pali refugees but wont help the Palis in Palestine. Most Muslims are so afraid of going to Palestine (for fear of discrimination against themselves), that the Palestinians are becoming a population isolated from world muslims, left to suffer in silence.

I can only urge any Muslims or any person who has any sympathy for them, that is reading this, to go and see Palestine yourslef sometime when it is not in a state of war. There is no open hostility or danger, despite the media image of it. I went during Gaza raids also but stayed in Jerusalem, generally the safest city because it is holy for all religions and thus no one wants to attack it full on. I had NO security issues there, only was interrogated a bit at the airport. and it was so beautiful and totally worth the trip.

The Palestinians are trying to improve their conditions but as my explanation, i hope, demonstrates, its becoming increasingly difficult everyday.

Bethlehem, for example, a majority Arab city, (Muslim and Christian) is like a large prison, where no males can leave the city. So all the males who worked outside Bethlehem (the majority did work outside) are almost literally starving to death. Palestinians are given identity cards a different color and their movement even for job purposes is restricted. On the identity card it says the name of the person, their father, their grandfather, and their great grandfather, in order to catch any Palestinian who may try to convert to be an Israeli or Jewish; even if you convert its not good enough--you need to be an original, ethnic Jew with four generations of Jewish family behind you to have access to the resources of this shared land.

I would also disagree with the statement that 'Everything Israel has going for it was achieved by the hard work of the Jewish people'. Quite frankly if Britain didnt mandate Palestine the way it did, and slice and dice (like it did in Africa as well, which is torn apart by civil war , of which at least ONE major reason is the European occupation), the Jewish people would not have the land of Israel today.

Since the Jewish exile (second), the person who let the Jews back into the land of Israel (about 1300 years ago) was Caliph Omar (after the death of Mohammad). Essentially the freedom for the land to be open to all religions was allowed by the Muslim caliph Omar, who believed that because Jerusalem was sacred to all three religions it was only just that they all have access to the land, its history, and its wealth. But from that time to 1948, there were minor squirmishes and control over the land but no bloody civil war and ethnic cleansing like now.

The Arab Christians and Arab Muslims got along perfectly well before, and still do. Why? Why are the Arab Christians united with the Arab Muslims against Israel? Most Americans ignore the Arab Christians because they consider them 'not real Christians' if theyre Arab or are anti israel (rolls eyes). They also think they might be pressured into being anti Israel by the Muslims. None of this is true--some of the most prominent contributors to Muslim society since the beginning of the Caliphate and the consequent downfall prior to WW I have been Arab Christians. Although Arab Christians and Muslims do have stereotypes and blah between them as well, they have never had real violence erupt. And Arab Christians are oppressed in certain lands (Coptics in Egypt for instnace), but Palestine just does not happen to be one of these lands and NEVER has.

The Arab Christians have chosen to leave in large numbers, frustrated with the Israelis, but the Arab Muslims in general tend to stay.

My reason for endorsing leaving the land was that the Palestinians will continue to lose generations of education and wealth if they stay there, as unfair as it may be. They should leave, get an education, gain economic strength, join a real army like the Egyptian or Jordanian, and when strong enough, have a fair and square war with Israel. When they are strong enough to defeat them, only then should they return and reconquer--in the way that Mohammad left Makkah when early Muslims were being persecuted, and returned to conquer Makkah again after living in Madina when the Muslims gained numbers and strength (and btw the Conquest of Makkah is prominent in history texts as the most peaceful conquest of a territory perhaps in history).

posted July 19, 2006 12:56 PM              

Firstly, Palis have moved away in large numbers to Egypt, Syria and Jordan. There is a huge amount of Palis who are refugees here or even have permanently moved here for better life. Particularly the Pali Christians (Greek Orthodox and some Armenians) have reduced DRASTICALLY in numbers. They were about 12 or 14 percent of the population before, but now theyre less than 2 percent of the Israeli population. The question is, is this right? Why should people leave their homes for the oppression of the Israeli government? Do you think this isnt forced exile or a form of ethnic cleansing with pressure on making people leave their homes? This is exactly what the Israeli government wants, and why it is building the walls around Jerusalem to intercept Palestinians from their farm land. Many have been intercepted and have lost any access to their earnings. In other occasions people have intervened, one of the more prominent groups being Rabbis for Humanity, they are a great group who have taken a stand to the Israeli govt for rebuilding the wall in some places for greater justice to the Palis. But do you see that the Palis wouldnt be heard in court, the Rabbis for Humanity had to step in for them? I think that is unfair in the extreme.

While many Palis do leave, many others stay because they don't want to leave the land that they and their forefathers have been living in for a while. If this seems silly, so should Israelis' reasons to live in Israel be--they have an emotional and historical affiliation as well.

I am not endorsing this point by the way only presenting their point of view. I personally believe that the Palis should all vacate Israel. And Ill later explain why.

Palis dont 'sit around resenting the Israelis' , you make it sound like theyre very lazy. Let me give you a few examples. There were quite a few Pali tour guides because tourism is a major part of Israels economy (with all the amazing Christian, Jewish AND Muslim history there, its no wonder!). But recently the government of Israel has passed a law that tour guides must have tourism licenses to be guides. And if they don't they are not recommended and not allowed legally to be tour guides. In order to get the license you must go to the Israeli tourism institute that trains the guides, and they only allow Israeli nationals to be tour guides. In essence, they are eliminating Palis from being tour guides.

Another example would be that of teachers. To be a teacher you need a Masters or PhD. The Israels have barred many Palestinian men and are in the process of passing a law where Palestinians cannot have seats in higher education in Israeli schools. This would make them unable to get good quality higher education and thus be anything beyond a Bachelors. The Palestinian schools, for lack of funding, take in the textbooks thrown in the dumpsters by the Israelis, which are used and old. So obviously the quality of education is going down. About forty years ago Palestinians had one of the highest literacy and post graduate degree rates in the world, and Im not joking. Even today 80 percent of Palestinians have an education beyond a Bachelors because theyre culture strongly endorses it. But now it is dwindling. In essence the Israelis are trying to 'dumb' them down.

Also, Palestinians are being separated in terms of health care. Whats strange is that a major hospital on Mount Zion, whose name I dont remember, was a Palestinian hospital established prior to Jewish settlement in the area even. After the creation of Israel it was turned into a Jewish hospital barring Palestinian entrance, and the Pali dr.s were replaced with Jewish ones.

The point is only that the Palestinians werent these barbaric people and the Israels came and built resources with the Palis now covet. In fact a lot of development was going on in Palestine prior to the creation of Israel. the occupation of the land, and the resources accompanying it, have excluded the Palis from the resources and taken economic power from them so that they cant afford to establish their own resources. I do admit Israel has established many many resources and infrastructure , much more than the Palis had to begin with. But its not jealousy of these resources, but the fact that even the old ones are not available to Pali, and that if the resources are being taken from the wealth of the land, it should be available to everyone living on that land.

There is another factor to consider. Egypt and Jordanian governments in particular are of no help to Palestine although they really should be. So of course this is their fault that needs to be recognized. Jordan lost East Jerusalem in the war, and totally withdrew. It helps Pali refugees but wont help the Palis in Palestine. Most Muslims are so afraid of going to Palestine (for fear of discrimination against themselves), that the Palestinians are becoming a population isolated from world muslims, left to suffer in silence.

I can only urge any Muslims or any person who has any sympathy for them, that is reading this, to go and see Palestine yourslef sometime when it is not in a state of war. There is no open hostility or danger, despite the media image of it. I went during Gaza raids also but stayed in Jerusalem, generally the safest city because it is holy for all religions and thus no one wants to attack it full on. I had NO security issues there, only was interrogated a bit at the airport. and it was so beautiful and totally worth the trip.

The Palestinians are trying to improve their conditions but as my explanation, i hope, demonstrates, its becoming increasingly difficult everyday.

Bethlehem, for example, a majority Arab city, (Muslim and Christian) is like a large prison, where no males can leave the city. So all the males who worked outside Bethlehem (the majority did work outside) are almost literally starving to death. Palestinians are given identity cards a different color and their movement even for job purposes is restricted. On the identity card it says the name of the person, their father, their grandfather, and their great grandfather, in order to catch any Palestinian who may try to convert to be an Israeli or Jewish; even if you convert its not good enough--you need to be an original, ethnic Jew with four generations of Jewish family behind you to have access to the resources of this shared land.

I would also disagree with the statement that 'Everything Israel has going for it was achieved by the hard work of the Jewish people'. Quite frankly if Britain didnt mandate Palestine the way it did, and slice and dice (like it did in Africa as well, which is torn apart by civil war , of which at least ONE major reason is the European occupation), the Jewish people would not have the land of Israel today.

Since the Jewish exile (second), the person who let the Jews back into the land of Israel (about 1300 years ago) was Caliph Omar (after the death of Mohammad). Essentially the freedom for the land to be open to all religions was allowed by the Muslim caliph Omar, who believed that because Jerusalem was sacred to all three religions it was only just that they all have access to the land, its history, and its wealth. But from that time to 1948, there were minor squirmishes and control over the land but no bloody civil war and ethnic cleansing like now.

The Arab Christians and Arab Muslims got along perfectly well before, and still do. Why? Why are the Arab Christians united with the Arab Muslims against Israel? Most Americans ignore the Arab Christians because they consider them 'not real Christians' if theyre Arab or are anti israel (rolls eyes). They also think they might be pressured into being anti Israel by the Muslims. None of this is true--some of the most prominent contributors to Muslim society since the beginning of the Caliphate and the consequent downfall prior to WW I have been Arab Christians. Although Arab Christians and Muslims do have stereotypes and blah between them as well, they have never had real violence erupt. And Arab Christians are oppressed in certain lands (Coptics in Egypt for instnace), but Palestine just does not happen to be one of these lands and NEVER has.

The Arab Christians have chosen to leave in large numbers, frustrated with the Israelis, but the Arab Muslims in general tend to stay.

My reason for endorsing leaving the land was that the Palestinians will continue to lose generations of education and wealth if they stay there, as unfair as it may be. They should leave, get an education, gain economic strength, join a real army like the Egyptian or Jordanian, and when strong enough, have a fair and square war with Israel. When they are strong enough to defeat them, only then should they return and reconquer--in the way that Mohammad left Makkah when early Muslims were being persecuted, and returned to conquer Makkah again after living in Madina when the Muslims gained numbers and strength (and btw the Conquest of Makkah is prominent in history texts as the most peaceful conquest of a territory perhaps in history).

posted July 19, 2006 05:51 PM              

Now, if we had someone familier with life in the area, from an Israeli POV, we might be able to get a better understanding of why Israel doesn't want to integrate the Arab population into it's own boundries. I'm sure they have their reasons for that as well.

Also, I can't help but to factor in the holocost, and how that might have effected the Jewish spirit, and resulting ideologies. Perhaps they felt exhausted from persecution, on the verge of extiction, and mad as hell in general - so, wanted a society in which Jewish people could regenerate their numbers, undiluted by other ethnic influences?

I recall reading something about Arabs being paid reasonable compensation for their lands, and Israel use to be more than accomidating to them in all facets of life - It was the Arabs who were never satisfied, and nothing was ever enough for long. Then, of course, the endless stream of terrorist attacks on Israel, by the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.. That would certainly douse any camaraderie and goodwill between them over time.

There are always two sides to every issue, otherwise it wouldn't be an issue worth fretting over, now would it.

As for this latest conflict, they signed a retreat agreement, essentially a cease and desist agreement with Hezbollah, then days later, Hezbollah entered Israeli territory (crossed the "blue line") to attack Israeli soldiers, kidnapping those 3 - They also fired over 40 rockets on them, after SIGNING AN AGREEMENT WITH THEM.

Most don't know that part of the story, they only know that Israel is bombing Lebanon, and they have no idea of the events that led up to that, or the circumstances surrounding it.

I'm way off topic here now...lol...sorry.

posted July 19, 2006 08:48 PM              

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

You'll find some statistics on the following:

posted July 19, 2006 09:36 PM            

Like I should be surprised, I mean it is posted by someone who supports terrorists.