posted July 17, 2006 02:20 AM            

I only found that you had posted exactly for the same thing after I had sent a message to reply to a thread of fayte's in Uni-versal Code. The AOL edition is more complete than that I read in a local English language newspaper today- some passages have been edited or omitted. I intended to copy and paste my post here, then I found yours...this is simply astonishing, horrifying, inhumane, unbelievable, outragous...what kind of religion (excuse my comments as I have to admit that I am not THAT familiar with Islam) would grant such things as dutiful and righteous? What kind of families would FEEL that it is right to kill their daughter, sister, whatever...a woman who is a member of the family, a woman who is supposed to be a loved one...WHY?

WHY?

When will they ever realize that the whole ideology is completely AGAINST humanity- the fact that they are human beings? How...? I am really stunned, sadddened and shocked by this phenomenon. In the article, even Mohammed the prophet was said to be in favor of empowering women...

So...? What can we do to stop this hideous, horrendous barbarity?

posted July 17, 2006 07:43 AM              

Thank God woman have the upper hand then or at least equality with our men in the land I live in....

I just cant begin to imagine not feelin empowered and strong in my relationships...

posted July 17, 2006 12:14 PM              

Yes Mohammad was very kind to the women in his life (he was raised by women only until he was significantly old and given to Abu Talib his uncle). He had no father figure and named the most important person in his life as his first wife and true love (in whose life he did not marry again). He never hit his wives and never cursed at them either and said a man who does so is a 'donkey.'

The true embodiment of the Islamic spirit is that the two names we name Allah by the most (Rahman and Raheem) both come from the arabic word arham (womb). God is essentially good and forgiving because he / it has female qualities.

posted July 17, 2006 03:41 PM              

I mean its more about the life of a poet amidst these things (more context / background would have been nice) than it is about the political situation (which intrigued me more than whether the poet narrator was going to have sex with the beautiful heroine or not).

posted July 19, 2006 12:10 AM              

Where do people get ideas like that from?

"Honour killings" or promoting "honour suicides" are illegal. This is the first Ive heard of honour suicides...wouldnt be surprised if most of these "honour suicides" were actually murders.

I dont know how common it is in Turkey. This is the first Ive heard about it.

Countries have to implement strict laws to prevent this from happening and severely punish the culprits.

And yeah a man could marry up to 4 wives (but only under the condition he treats all his wives equally...which is impossible really). Polygamy was practiced then because there were a shortage of men and there were widows with children that needed to be taken care of. Before the time of the prophet men were marrying many more wives than this all over the world and neglecting, abusing and just throwing them away. That was part of the Jahaliya period and so was killing your daughters. And it looks like some of the customs of this Jahaliya times are still practiced today.

I know of a few families that have 10+ children. There are 6 kids in my family. How can one make such a generalization that people who have many children are extremists? They believe it is a blessing to have children and feel that this is true wealth.

posted July 19, 2006 01:07 AM              

I know that extremists make up only a small portion of the Moslum population (Jahaliya extremists, as you say), who advocate honor killings and honor suicides upon the females of their families. However, I have read that this is actually fairly common in many Arab countries, and actually regarded fairly lightly - not sure how the numbers break down, though - percentage wise. So, I don't know what's common custom and what is only found in the fringes of the culture ??

Is it acceptable for a Moslum man to kill his wife if she commits adultry, or even gives reason to be suspected of it? How common is that? I don't know.

See, these are the things that other cultures find shocking about the Moslum culture, so they tend to get more notice.

posted July 19, 2006 01:54 AM              

Most people in the world dont live in material excess like we do in North America. Maybe people that have large families may not realize or think they live in poverty (unless they begin comparing themselves to us). Also they may ask why should living in poverty deny them the right to have a large family? The parents may be used to living in those conditions, and may have been born and brought up that way themselves What also may be the case is that they dont have available or cant afford birth control/contraceptives, or just dont believe in using them.

Most people who advocate honour killing usually arent religious zealots...they're usually uneducated people who care about their reputations or just want to get rid of a girl taht is a burden on them...(like why some crazies practice female infanticide).

Im not sure how common this is in Arab countries...can you give me the source you get the fact that its fairly common and regarded highly lightly there.

No it's not acceptable for a man to kill his wife if she commits adultery. I dont know how common it is for a man to kill his adulterous wife...it happens here in North America too. The muderer here though usually gets caught and punished...because the system runs better here.

posted July 19, 2006 03:54 AM              

Thank you for the information, SG and DD. I guess that having more than one wife happens in a lot of religious factions. Until just recently when it was outlawed by the Mormon Church itself, polygamy was practiced amongst some Mormons in the U.S. in Utah even though it was outlawed by the State of Utah a long time ago.

I think that the human rights people should get on this one and put pressure on the government to stop this practice. Maybe now that it has made the worldwide news something will be done about it.

posted July 19, 2006 09:09 PM              

From what Ive read, this sort of thing usually occurs in the vilages where I highly doubt people will see my or anyone out here's outrage. Whatever name this honour killing/suicide has been given by people, for whatever justification, it is murder plain and simple.

Who is the "we" that don't understand when you say:

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It's not just that it is a "cultural" situation that we don't understand, it's that the murder of your own child is so evil, so vile, and so heartless that only the worst form of human life could be capable of it.

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Am I suppose to explain how this occurs in "my culture" or in these countries? How would I know? How would I know why people murder other people? I could ask you why do some American men kill their or attempt to kill their adulterous wives.

posted July 20, 2006 01:37 AM              

I understand there is an inherant danger in articles like these of spreading belief to the uninformed that all of the middle east is this way. Extremist conclusions are so unfortionately common with people, so I do understand sensitivity from DayDreamer and others of Middle-Eastern decent.

It seems, as said here and in the article, that this is a more isolated occurence, due to different equative factors. Terrorism, causing uprooting of rural families to modern cities. Old ways of conservative Islam belief and mindset, rigid to new laws and customs. (with European influence at that, probably causing more tension).

Even if the reason for the new stricter laws against the murder of girls and women seem somewhat temporal in persuasion, it is a positive hope for lasting change at least.
It does take time for mindset to adapt to change.
Women were granted the right to vote in the U.S. in 1920, and here it's 2006 and we are still earning less than men for the same jobs. ?????? (why aren't we storming Washington over this, I shake my head in wonder).
Although, it has to be noted to be fair, that in the last decades many positive advancements and freedoms have seen a stride, it seems we still have catching up to do with the intitial intention of Equality.

It's helpless and frustrating to wonder, what can we do to help. Just wait out time?It's terrible to imagine that at this moment so many females are living in fear, with no hope of following their own passions and happiness.

posted July 20, 2006 01:45 AM              

quote:

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So...? What can we do to stop this hideous, horrendous barbarity?

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and wondering the same things.

posted July 21, 2006 03:04 AM              

thanks for sharing your understanding. Yes it does take time for people's mindset to change. Whether you actively fight it or not, it takes time. Unfortunately, I think there will always be people that kill other people. And these people need to be dealt with.

Lioneye, Ive never met women like that from my culture. All the women in my family were treated like queens. The women are highly valued and looked after. I think it all depends on your education and the family/community you come from. All the elder women in my family (including my mother and aunts) have university degrees, and almost all of them work (of course depending on whether they want to work or not, and not because their husbands forced them to). I know a number of families where the woman is the head of the household in Pakistan.

And for those women who are treated like sub-humans, whatever culture or background they come from, they must raise their voice and must let their problems be known, so that these types of things can be prevented, and dealt with. When people live in poverty or in isolation from law enforcers then those voices cant be heard, and wicked people (there are wicked people where ever you go in this world) can take advantage of that. So educating women to speak up, and telling them who to go to for help is a start. Also setting up women's shelters, and having reliable police that are easy to get ahold of would help.

posted July 22, 2006 01:46 AM              

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As for the mentality of these murderers, the countries in which these "honour killings" happen must toughen up their laws and give SEVERE and JUST punishments for murder, and also spell it out, loud and clear, that "honour killings", whatever name they've been given, or whatever the intention behind it...is murder, and there is no justification for it, and that those involved in this act will be punished accordingly. Maybe showing examples of this more often (like through the local newspapers) will send a message?

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posted July 22, 2006 09:31 AM            

As paralyzed as i'm feeling right now, all I can say is we must continue to care about things. we have to care. Somebody has to

I'll try reading the posts when I feel better. Hope so.

posted July 22, 2006 01:19 PM              

Though we as women in the West do have the freedom to explore our sexually I do not think that it is a sign of freedom to explore one's sexually or a sign of respect for women to allow themeselves to be treated as nothing more than sex objects. In fact, the women who allow themselves to be treated as such have no self-respect in my opinion. Of course having said that I will now be labeled " a prude." As we must have our labels at LL. lol

Though some would like to think and present the West as Utopia or Paradise compared to the rest of the world it in fact and reality is not. But for the time being at least we do have the freedom to change things in North America and work towards equality. Women who allow themselves to be sexaully exploited are doing much to slow down that process though.

In Guatamala many women, some still very young girls, have been found raped and murdered and the government does not even bother to seek for those responsible for their deaths much less prosecute them. Shows how highly women are esteemed in Guatamala. The human rights people along with petitions from all over the world are attempting to put pressure on the Guatamalian government to seek for and prosecute those responisble for these crimes and human rights violations against women.

I know from stories on shows such as "60 Minutes" and things that I have read that Muslim women are working very hard towards being treated more humanely and equally in their societies. Some have even been maimed and murdered for their efforts but the Muslim women still persist to fight for freedom from oppression.

quote:

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Islam does not grant such things as "dutiful and righteous."
Where do people get ideas like that from?

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