posted September 22, 2006 01:12 AM              

Would you consider that fair?

I think the demand for oppression of free speech (opposition to America) is really extreme. Pakistan has always been a country to support minorities and free speech of any kind for the sixty years its been around. Quite frankly its insulting to our constitution, as if we're kids that can be 'shut up'. Also, it contradicts Americas own claims to free speech, or the Pope or Denmark cartoonists claims as well...

posted September 22, 2006 12:41 PM            

One would think that just as the vast majority of Americans stood against the racist KKK in the US, those who polluted our laws and beliefs in the inherent civil rights of all Americans when they attacked Jews and other minorities, claiming a connection with biblical teachings of Christianity...one would think Muslims would line up in like manner to oppose and dismantle the Taliban, al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, et. al.

Would one be wrong to think Muslims owe it not only to the teachings of Islam but to themselves to oppose the murderous radicals within their own religion...those who say they are acting with the sanction of Islamic teachings?

Whatever the case, Richard Armitage denies he ever threatened to bomb Pakistan back to the stone age or sent anyone else to do so. Not only that, but that he lacked the authority to do so.

posted September 22, 2006 01:57 PM            

American's stood together against the abuse of civil rights, we stood together to defeat Neo-Nazi militia groups (even dismantled the groups, jailed their leaders and sold their lands to pay fines to those they hurt).

Why is it we constantly see terrorist apologists here blame the US for attacks that began long before the Gulf war or the War on terror? Why is it we rarely, if at all, see those of Islamic affiliation decry those that use Islam to kill? As a Christian we are expected (and often do) to denounce those that use Christianity to kill.

posted September 22, 2006 02:22 PM            

SGA did link to an article that spoke of Musharraf claiming America made threats on them if they didn't comply.

posted September 23, 2006 02:09 AM              

Im certain he did not support the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks. Pakistan was one of the first countries to condemn the act and several Pakistanis (NY has quite a few) were killed in the towers themselves.

The QUESTION as AG pointed out is about the last part of the article.

And lioneye, Id have to disagree with anti-American being racist. If the sentiment was anti American people there would be a point. But its not, its anti American government (thus its a political ideology). Just like the American people had tons of propoganda thrown at them and the media for ten years had (and still does) portray Russians, Chinese, Middle Easterners as violent, unsympathetic, stone cold, nondemocratic weirdos, (in movies and the news etc) those are stereotypes that originated from governments and important figures (political) in those countries which were then generalized over populations. Is that not racist as well? Well a lot of ppl would say its anti-a certain political ideology. I would tend to agree with the second viewpoint. Altho portraying these ppl in these ways in movies and such is wrong, it stems from a political conflict and subsequent differences in ideology. And if people are anti American government, theres nothing wrong with that, its their opinion and theyre absolutely entitled to it. Thats the difference between political commentators/public protests and terrorists--terrorists would be anti-Americans (ALL americans) or anti-western in entirety and commit violent acts to reach their 'goals' of destruction of the west or all americans. But just as the Americans have intensely hated the Russian government, Chinese government, and such, so can others also intensely hate the American govt and have every right to do so, and to speak about it as well.

Also, if anyone is saying that those words 'bombing into the stone age' are at all any more respectful than Chavez's comments about Bush, then Id like to see a justification of why??

posted September 25, 2006 06:10 PM              

quote:

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Thats the difference between political commentators/public protests and terrorists--terrorists would be anti-Americans (ALL americans) or anti-western in entirety and commit violent acts to reach their 'goals' of destruction of the west or all americans.

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posted September 25, 2006 10:48 PM              

Funny I had already copied this quote before I saw Lioneye's response to it.

SG, you seem like a reasonable, balanced person. Can you really say the hatred doesn't extend to American citizens? I mean, really, be completely honest. It does seem that there is a hostility towards Americans in general (by Muslims). Again, I ask, what exactly is it that such a large population of Muslims hate about America and/or American citizens? Please don't respond that it is Iraq because I know these sentiments existed prior. I DO believe our support of Israel is really at the heart of it. Israel is a democracy, so of course we would support their government. It doesn't mean I agree with everything Israel does; not at all. Do I want to see Muslims suffer? Not at all. (I also don't want to see the Israelies exterminated, either, btw).
If I am wrong and the true cause is something other than Israel, please fill me in.

posted September 28, 2006 03:07 AM              

quote:

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But when hatred becomes so passionate, it becomes all encompassing. It grows to unreasonable proportions and bleeds over any distiguishable borders. It fuels terrorism, because the hatred is allowed to grow to such intensity. In the end, it becomes a form of racism against the west, or really - against white people. The mob mentality takes over, and people just become hate bombs.

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I would DEF disagree with that. Thats a very slippery slope to be on, saying that hatred of national policy can overshadow a persons thought. A lot more people in the Muslim world can separate civilian casualties and government policies--Ive posted here before the article of a Palestinian woman who donated her sons organs to save Israeli children--the same child who had been KILLED by Israeli soldiers by mistake in a Gaza raid. There are several other poeple I know like that--who are part of coalitions and organizations reaching out to non muslims. My mother herself is part of a traveling group of muslims who set up medical clinics in non muslim countries to help non muslim (and mostly White children) to regain health. The one my mom works in is called Umma clinic in LA , CA USA.

Its just not true, and the civilians of these countries have raised their voice.

However, this same accusation could be leved against the american people as well. Theyve been told that terrorists can be in plain clothes as well, so do they hate all muslims and arabs, or suspect them to be plain clothes terrorists?

This assumption is as absurd as it is when leveled against muslims.

I CAN honestly say this hatred doesnt extend to American citizens. For people with pre existing psychotic tendencies, they use this an excuse to level their generic hatred and bitterness, and their reasons should not be paid attention to. on one hand america says it will not negotiate with or appease terrorists, on the other hand its listening to osama bin laden tapes and saying that his motivations are rational and since other muslims might be resentful of US govt, they will do the same?? Is listening to that mans dribble or psychotic babble really the key to understanding the mentality of the second largest religion in the world?

I think not...

Muslims in general do resent the US govt, but there is not one muslim ive met who has not been to the states that would not like to come and visit. All of them say 'Ive heard the American people are very friendly, and Id like to see the Grand Canyon etc.' Why do they stumble like fools for American visitor visas? America is still the 'golden country' to a lot of people, and because it is separated by oceans on either side there is a lot of mystery. Muslims still gobble up Hollywood films and their children watch Nemo, the Muslim world in most parts is so westernized that harboring these kind of sterotypes is very naive, the world is becoming a global village. For most part, the large majority of people live in large cities (Cairo, Amman, Islamabad, Lahore) which are extremely westernized, and they are not hostile to the American culture, but to the government. Secondly the population in rural areas is too unaware of world politics, and tends to be disconnected with its own country's politics and resources, let alone Americas. The truth is in many of these countries the poor rural class struggle for survival--politics is a luxury they cannot afford to discuss.

Would you say that the Americans that resent US policy, or the Canadians or Europeans that do so, would have a propensity to be violent terrorists? There are White Americans who are muslim and disagree with the current administrations policies, but they are not labeled as terrorists. Terrorism is not a phenomenon that develops with melanin in the skin; certain psycho people just are terrorist whether theyre Timothy Mc Veigh or Osama bin Laden.

Yes Muslims do hate Americas foreign policy at the moment, and some components in the past. They hate Americas seemingly one sided support of ISrael, and the media bias. They also hate Americas policing of the world and interference in Muslim nations' governments. A lot of people thought Saddams power was brought by America and resented America ten years ago for its support of Saddam, now they resent America for intervening to turn him out when they think that it is the US govt that placed him there.

It is also the West's supposed disrespect for Islam--which makes certain muslims think that they are being 'mocked' or 'degraded'. Im just conveying the message, not saying how I feel.... They don't understand the separation of church and state here and deeply revere all the prophets (Jesus as well whom they consider a prophet, but most Muslims do respect Jesus a lot and believe in the same biblical stories as Christians and Jews do). They just have not been able to separate religion from their mentality, and I doubt they ever well. Even the more secularized and westernized countries like Turkey; if you go in Ramadan (like now), you will not see people eating on the streets much, because that is just our religion---it is all encompassing in our lives. It doesnt teach intolerance, and we're not supposed to forcefeed it down others throats, it doesnt teach us to attack and fight incessantly or unnecessarily, but it DOES influence every aspect of our personal lives, and when you're attached to something so deeply, an 'attack' on it seems a personal affront.

Americans are generally quite considerate about studying other cultures when they go abroad. If they studied Arab culture they would know that the culture and religion are inseparable. This simple understanding might solve a lot of miscommunications...

Love
SG

posted September 28, 2006 03:09 AM              

I wanted to add that i do check LL every couple of days but since its ramadan, im working, fasting, doin yoga n dance, studyin for the GMAT , and doin my Tarawih prayers every night (SUPER BUSY) so I dont check LL that much. I might reply to peoples replies late, but that doesn't mean that I am not going to reply or that I dont want to. Give me time and have patience! Happy Holidays to all.

Thanks.