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Author Topic:   AFTER PAT'S BIRTHDAY
Rainbow~
unregistered
posted October 24, 2006 02:47 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
AFTER PAT'S BIRTHDAY

Posted on Oct 19, 2006

By Kevin Tillman

Courtesy of the Tillman Family
Pat Tillman (left) and his brother Kevin stand in front of a Chinook helicopter in Saudi Arabia before their tour of duty as Army Rangers in Iraq in 2003.


Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005, has written a powerful, must-read document.

It is Pat’s birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after.

It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military.

He spoke about the risks with signing the papers.

How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people.

How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition.

How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice…

...until we got out.


Much has happened since we handed over our voice:

Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is.

Something like that.

Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them.

Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military.


Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet.

It’s interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.


Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.

Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.


Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.


Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.


Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.

Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.

Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.

Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.


Somehow torture is tolerated.

Somehow lying is tolerated.

Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.


Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.


Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.


Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.


Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.


Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.

Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.


Somehow this is tolerated.

Somehow nobody is accountable for this.

In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people.

So don’t be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity.

Most likely, they will come to know that “somehow” was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.


Luckily this country is still a democracy.

People still have a voice.

People still can take action.

It can start after Pat’s birthday.


Brother and Friend of Pat Tillman,
Kevin Tillman

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Rainbow~
unregistered
posted October 24, 2006 02:54 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bless dear Kevin's heart....he still believes we have a voice and can use it....after Pat's birthday....

I could go thru the motions, and "pretend" to vote....but I choose not to get caught up in that farce anymore.....that farce we call "elections.".....*sigh*

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Rainbow~
unregistered
posted October 25, 2006 01:50 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well come on jwhop!

What's holding you back????

Why haven't I heard that Kevin Tillman is a brain dead leftist moron yet?

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Mirandee
unregistered
posted October 25, 2006 11:48 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh, eventually you will hear that, Rainbow. From all those who do live in a chosen state of ignorance and denial.

Very powerful words by Kevin Tillman. He summed it up regarding those who continue to support this regime:

quote:
Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.

And it's so very sadly true that our grand kids will write off this generation of people as being traitors for continuing to support this evil administration but I hope that at least OUR grandkids will remind them that not all of us were. At least half of the country does not live is a chosen state of denial and ignorance but have been fighting diligently to protect our democracy here in the U.S. and uphold the virtures that this nation has always represented.

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted October 25, 2006 03:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pat volunteered to be a Soldier and to fight in the Mid East. Using his heroic death in order to perpetuate your own bitter agenda against Bush and the war demonstrates the bitter anger harbored in ones heart.

Pat Tillman is a hero here in Arizona and elsewhere. I wonder how he would feel that others are using his death for the anti-war / anti-Bush cause which was counter to his own beliefs?

Just goes to show you- the rabid left will use ANYTHING and ANY DEATH to push forward their own demented agenda.

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Rainbow~
unregistered
posted October 25, 2006 09:18 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pid in all her psuedo-patriotic, neo-con
ignorance says

quote:
Pat Tillman is a hero here in Arizona and elsewhere. I wonder how he would feel that others are using his death for the anti-war / anti-Bush cause which was counter to his own beliefs?
Just goes to show you- the rabid left will use ANYTHING and ANY DEATH to push forward their own demented agenda.

My god!

Can't you read woman????

Like duh!

DUH!

and duh! again!!!!

It was Pat's own brother Kevin who wrote that article which is giving you a psuedo patriotic hissy fit!

It's Kevin himself explaining just exactly how he and his brother Pat really felt about bush and company.....by reminding us that we could still make changes in the government by voting - (after pat's birthday).....but you missed the point!
BOING!


BOING!

Another one goes over Pid's head!

so Pid,to foolishly make the outlandish claim that the article was "counter" to what Pat felt.......

is calling his brother(with whom he was very close) a liar!

Read it again Pid....Maybe you'll understand it t his time...*sigh*

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lotusheartone
unregistered
posted October 25, 2006 09:44 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would like to read about a soldier..in Iraq..

and see what that soldier would say...

Land of the Free..no discrimination..all equal

Justice for ALL. ...

Could you say that Iraq is the,
Land of oppurtunity?

I put my children in two scholls in Canada

and they were hated and ridiculed..for being American
we moved back to the U.S. and the students..Loved Canada and them..no hate...
American's are good!
we live for the ALL..all must protect one Another..

the UnderDog... .


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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted October 26, 2006 12:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That's right, it was Pat Tillman's brother who wrote that piece of trash, not Pat Tillman.

I remember when Pat Tillman decided to leave his NFL football career and join the military. He passed up a lot of money to serve the United States and the people of the United States. He is a true hero. They all are.

On the other hand, I remember when he was killed in Afghanistan. I remember the bloviating hate filled leftist statements that he got what he deserved.

Now, these same bloviating leftists are attempting to use his death against the war on terrorism and terrorists, wars he fully supported and was willing to give his life to fight.

Contemptible comes easily to mind.

"Last april, the student paper at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst, The Daily Collegian, ran a column by graduate student Rene Gonzalez attacking Pat Tillman, the Arizona Cardinals safety who had volunteered for the US Army and was killed in Afghanistan. Gonzalez called Tillman an "idiot" who was "acting out his macho, patriotic crap" and got what he deserved"
http://www.reason.com/cy/cy102604.shtml

Pat Tillman isn't here to tell you what he would undoubtedly say to the rabid unpatriotic, disloyal left but I have no doubt it wouldn't be complimentary.

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Eleanore
Moderator

Posts: 112
From: Okinawa, Japan
Registered: Apr 2009

posted October 26, 2006 12:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is just my opinion, ok?

I believe it is very likely that if his brother really wrote this letter* he must have written it after his brother died (obviously) and who would be in any state of mind other than mourning at that point? Other than anger? Other than denial? There are well known phases that people experience when dealing with the death of a loved one, especially one so close.

I think that Kevin Tillman, and Cindy Sheehan(sp) and the rest of those left behind by the troops who chose to fight for this country and who died in this war, are, simply put, trapped in the worst stages of bereavement. That's it. They are angry at their loss. They want someone to blame. And they are in denial that those who have passed chose their life path, lived their life to the fullest, and are in a better place now. And I think the "anti-war" campaign is an easy way for them to avoid dealing with the real issues within themselves. No amount of lobbying or crying or complaining will bring their loved ones back, nor will it turn back time and change that person's mind about joining the military and/or going to war. You can think what you will of me but I find it a bit sad that the troops that have died are not being honored as heroes so much as they are being portrayed as ignorant, blinded, brainwashed fools who had no idea what they were doing joining the military and going to war.

I have friends that have been deployed. I have friends that are currently deployed. And I know that although none of them are jumping for joy at the idea of dying in this war, they are fully aware of the consequences of their decisions and have chosen to join or stay in the military and/or go to war anyway.

I feel very sorry for Kevin Tillman. I really do. I wish him much peace of mind and soul and much healing after such a harsh blow.

*For the paranoid, no I am not saying that he didn't write it, I am merely going on the assumption that he did since this is the first I hear of this.

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Rainbow~
unregistered
posted October 26, 2006 02:05 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why am I not surprised????


I knew it wouldn't take long (in fact I predicted it).....

it didn't take long at all to somehow "discredit" even a true American and soldier such as Kevin Tillman who served in the military along with his brother Pat in Iraq and Afghanistan.


jwhop our authority on everything (especially brain-dead morons) has come to the conclusion that

Since Pat himself "didn't write the article" it is a piece of trash -

which infers that Pat's dearly beloved brother Kevin would sink so low as to lie about his dead brother's true feelings regarding bush and the war....


My God that is disgustingly low!

jwhop just can't face up to the fact that the brothers Tillman were on to exactly what was going on.....and Kevin the surviving brother, had the guts to tell it like it is....in hisheartfelt article....*sigh*

Some people can't face the truth.....

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Now let's take Eleanore......even she is having a problem with the fact that Kevin wrote that piece,attributing its content to the "probable" fact that he was "in mourning" (and not in his right mind?), when he wrote it....

But of course!

Why else would he say such things????

Surely, not because it was what he was REALLY feeling.....


It is so much easier to find fault with the author who comes out with truth than to accept the fact that the author really knew what he was talking about.


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Eleanore
Moderator

Posts: 112
From: Okinawa, Japan
Registered: Apr 2009

posted October 26, 2006 09:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I find no fault with him for writing it, Rainbow. I don't generallly get upset over people expressing their opinions, whether they are in their right mind or not.

Of course what he wrote is what he was really feeling. Maybe you have "not real" feelings, but I know nothing of those. However, your feelings and your thoughts are not always in synch. And neither are the two always in synch with the way things are ... sometimes they are stuck in the past, in the future, or in your own "reality".

It's amazing that you won't even allow yourself, for one moment, to be open to the possibility that grief can overwhelm somebody. That people have trouble dealing with the death of their loved ones. That *sometimes* people are so distraught that they make use of anything they have available to them to cope, including denial, anger, blame, guilt etc. There is plenty of information out there about they many ways people cope with death if you'd like to inform yourself.


Kevin Tillman's feelings are a direct result of his experience losing his brother in a war, it's as simple and obvious as that. However, his feelings don't speak for his brother. In fact, the only thing we know about his brother was that he chose to join the military and he died serving his country. No matter how his death makes anyone feel, that truth cannot be ignored.

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Mirandee
unregistered
posted October 26, 2006 10:15 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very good, Pidaua. Spoken from the Queen of bitterness and hatred.

Would rather be on the "rabid left" than the ignorant right.


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Rainbow~
unregistered
posted October 26, 2006 11:55 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Eleanore the apparent expert on grief says to me....

quote:
It's amazing that you won't even allow yourself, for one moment, to be open to the possibility that grief can overwhelm somebody. That people have trouble dealing with the death of their loved ones.

Whoa!

Whoa!

Back up there lady!

Who do you think you're talking to?

you say you are "amazed" by what you are "assuming" about me and my supposed "ignorance" regarding grief-stricken people.....

Oh that's a good one!

Well, I'm amazed that you would dare to assume that I know nothing about grief!

Talk about jumping to "delusions!"

I watched first my father, and then my mother suffer and die horribly and slowly from cancer, so you're barking up the wrong tree here!


Then Eleanore goes on to say....

quote:
Kevin Tillman's feelings are a direct result of his experience losing his brother in a war, it's as simple and obvious as that. However, his feelings don't speak for his brother......

OMG! You are claiming to REALLY know that Kevin Tillman's feelings are a direct rsult of his experience losing his brother in a war?


You really KNOW that, huh?

I'm not certain that you REALLY KNOW that due to being a professional in mental health, or if you know that due to some very good psychic abilities....but however it is that you know it...I've got to say....

You're pretty good!

Now let me tell you this...... I've no doubt that Kevin was grief stricken losing his brother.. Who wouldn't?

However, I'll never be convinced that losing his brother had anything at all to do with what Kevin wrote in that article..... or. what both he and Pat realized about bush, the crooked government and the senseless blood letting war!!!

What's more, you have the audicity to say that "Kevin's feelings don't speak for his brother!"

You are suggesting then, that Kevin lied when he said....

quote:
It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military.
He spoke about the risks with signing the papers.
How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people.
How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition.
How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice…
...until we got out.

Much has happened since we handed over our voice:


Well believe what you want, Eleanore....I believe Kevin....


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and
unregistered
posted October 26, 2006 12:38 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rainbow

------------------
"WHATEVER the soul longs for, WILL be attained by the spirit"-Khalil Gibran

"The only people I would care to be with now are artists and people who have suffered: those who know what beauty is, and those who know what sorrow is: nobody else interests me."-- Oscar Wilde-- "De Profundis"

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted October 26, 2006 01:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
More of the rabid, foaming at the mouth speech from the one and only queen of Drama - Rainbow.

It was people LIKE YOU that I pointed my so called "patriotic hissy fit" at. I think that Kevin Tillman is a man that is bereaved especially since he also joined the Army - Rangers with his brother at the same time.

HE is allowed to voice his opinion, tear his hair out and scream unfair as his loss is great. YOU and the other mindless, brainless leftest morons use the deaths of our Soldiers and their grieving families to perpetuate your evil anger towards Conservatives, the good of the War and Bush.

Each death you proudly wear on your damn "I hate Bush" placard in order to use the emotional aspect of death as blackmail for this war. You act as though you care so much for each and every Soldier that dies, but what I have noticed is that you only proudly post letters from the bereaved that are AGAINST the war. How about paying respect to those that served and their beloved families that are still faithful in this war.. Oh wait, it wouldn't further your hateful, ugly agenda.

Then again, you believe in lizard people....

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted October 26, 2006 01:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hmmm... Mirandee, your post was so intelligent and right on in your observation - if you were actually reading a post from either yourself or Rainbow. I would like to see where I am bitter and hateful by calling Pat Tillman a hero? How am I bitter for giving him props for giving his life for what he believed?

Isn't it odd that Kevin AND Pat joined at the same time - After 2002 - AFTER the conflict began but NOW Kevin hates the war? If anything he should hate the commanding officer that gave the wrong command that actually let to the death by friendly fire.

Then again, you would actually have to do research on both of the Tillman's, the incident and then come to an intelligent conclusion.

Nah, you would rather just use Kevin's mourning and your hate to perpetuate your argument and false cause.


**** One more thing - why do you think this article was posted now? Kevin wrote this most likely in 2004 - November, since he says it is November 6th and the next day is election day. I am assuming that is 2004 about 7 months after Pat died and like Eleanore said, the grief was tremendous. Where are subsequent letters?


***edited to add - it is very possible he wrote this article this year and is just referring to the future 11/6 birthday and following election day.

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted October 26, 2006 02:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's an article that provides more insight into why Kevin wrote the article, how the family distances themselves from the anti-war protestors as why the article was published now.


October 24, 2006
Brother of N.F.L. Star Posts Antiwar Essay
By RANDAL C. ARCHIBOLD
LOS ANGELES, Oct. 23 — A brother of Pat Tillman, the National Football League player who was killed in combat in Afghanistan after leaving his sports career to serve in the Army, has lashed out at the Iraq war in an essay published online.

The brother, Kevin Tillman, who was in the same Army Ranger unit as Pat Tillman, a corporal who was killed on April 22, 2004, by fire from his fellow soldiers under circumstances that the Pentagon continues to investigate, sharply criticized American political leadership and called the war “an illegal invasion.”

“Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes,” Mr. Tillman wrote in the 660-word essay that was posted on Thursday on Truthdig .com, a Web magazine offering news and opinion from a “progressive point of view.”

“Somehow,” Mr. Tillman added, “American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.”

In what are apparently his most expansive public remarks since the death of his brother at age 27, he also does not spare the American public, which he suggests too often relies on superficial gestures to support the troops instead of holding politicians accountable.

“Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a 5-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas or slapping stickers on cars or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet,” he wrote.

Mr. Tillman ended with a suggestion that the elections on Nov. 7 are an opportunity for people opposed to the war to send a message.

“Luckily this country is still a democracy,” he wrote. “People still have a voice. People can still take action. It can start after Pat’s birthday,” Nov. 6.

Despite Pat Tillman’s fame and the outpouring of emotion after his death, the Tillman family has generally kept a distance from antiwar protesters, though they have often spoken of their efforts to find the truth about what happened. Family members did not answer messages for comment on Kevin Tillman’s posting.

A spokeswoman for the Pat Tillman Foundation in San Jose, Calif., where the Tillmans grew up, said, “It is our understanding that Kevin Tillman is not accepting interview requests.”

Pat Tillman, a safety for the Arizona Cardinals, left the team in spring 2002 to join the Army along with Kevin Tillman, motivated in part by the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and eventually training as a Ranger. After a stint in Iraq, the brothers were sent to Afghanistan.

Pat Tillman died, the Army eventually concluded, after members of his own unit shot him as they searched for enemy fighters in a canyon in southeastern Afghanistan. An Afghan soldier fighting next to him also died.

Kevin Tillman’s essay was posted as Pentagon investigators close in on the latest of several investigations into the case. Initially, the Army had suggested that enemy fire had killed Pat Tillman. Later, the Army conceded that his comrades had shot him.

Under pressure from the family and members of Congress, the inspector general of the Defense Department and the Army Criminal Investigation Command are examining the actions of members of Mr. Tillman’s unit and the initial investigation.

Daniel Kohns, a spokesman for Representative Michael M. Honda of California, a Democrat from San Jose, who pushed for the investigations, said Pentagon representatives said a month ago that they expected to complete their work by the end of November or early December.

A spokesman for the Pentagon said Monday that the investigations were continuing. He declined to comment on Kevin Tillman’s essay.

Robert Scheer, a liberal syndicated columnist and the editor of Truthdig, based in Santa Monica, Calif., said he had written about the case and had spoken to family members in the past.

Kevin Tillman’s article was not solicited, Mr. Scheer said, and the site agreed to Mr. Tillman’s conditions for posting it. The conditions were that it be posted unchanged aside from grammatical editing, including the headline he had written, “After Pat’s Birthday.”

Mr. Scheer said Mr. Tillman had made it known that, after leaving the military last year, he felt now was time to speak out, with his brother’s birthday approaching. Pat Tillman also had expressed anger about the war to friends, several published reports have said.

“He is not proselytizing, he is not a political person,” Mr. Scheer said of Kevin Tillman. “He just decided because his birthday was coming up he felt strongly that he had to say something.”

Since the article went up on the Web site, it has received more than 4,000 responses, though Web server limits have prohibited publishing that many, Mr. Scheer said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/24/washington/24tillman.html?_r=1&ref=worldspecial&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

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Eleanore
Moderator

Posts: 112
From: Okinawa, Japan
Registered: Apr 2009

posted October 26, 2006 03:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rainbow
Even though I know you're going to misunderstand, misinterpret, overanalyze, take out of context, and twist what I write here anyway ... I just want you to know that it's been sad watching your posts change the way they have over the years.

I never called myself a "grief expert" ... in fact, I clearly stated in my first post that these were my opinions.

I think I'm talking to Rainbow ... and you can read into and misunderstand everything I say because you presume you have any idea what I was talking about as much as you want. No, I'm not "giving you permission" ... I'm just saying it doesn't bother me in the least. I haven't assumed anything about you, Rainbow. All I know is what you post on here. That's it. You suggested that Kevin Tillman's letter was how he "really felt" and that I had found "fault" with him for suggesting that he wrote it in a state of mourning, when your mind is easily clouded (not your mind, Rainbow, but the mind of someone grieving). Further ... I wrote that there are many ways people deal with grief. You are just one person, Rainbow. Not everyone is you. Not everyone is going to deal with loss the way you do. And that's ok. I doubt that either one of us are "grief experts" regardless of our life experiences.

You not being convinced of anything one way or another is really no one's business but your own. I have nothing more than sympathy for Kevin Tillman and I know he suffered a terrible loss. But even my rose colored glasses don't stop me from putting 2 and 2 together.


Geez, Rainbow. You talk alot about other people's "tactics" and the drama that goes on here in GU but it almost seems (see, that? almost seems) that you have no idea you engage in the same sort of behavior yourself. Or if you do, then everyone else "made you do it". Lately, posting with you has devolved into an Ego-fest and I frankly refuse to take part in it any longer. One can't just say to you, "It's my opinion that the sky is blue." without you jumping all over them with things like ...
"how dare you assume the sky is blue?"
"What is blue really? I think it's more turquoise today and that's not technically blue!"
"Don't you know the sky changes color all the time?"
"How dare you presume to know the color of the sky? Are you some kind of sky color expert?"
"Don't you know that color doesn't even exist!"
etc.
And I have to wonder sometimes whether some people need to actually start adding modifiers to every sentence they write to you here by trying to perceive beforehand how you're going to misinterpret what they write so that these kinds of misunderstandings don't happen again. Too much trouble, and I know that from experience. And even when the effort is made things sometimes still get blown up or torn down or ripped apart ....


Now, you may think I'm trying to be mean or overexaggerate or whatever, but I'm not. I don't even know if you realize what's going on. (Really, not trying to say you are an unaware person ... oh you know what? Nevermind at this point. ) I feel very sorry for ... everything that's going on here. It's not pity, it's compassion. And even if you don't want it, I can't help feeling it.


As far as my personal beliefs go ... what I do know is that you are creating your own reality. The more you focus on the negative things you don't want in life, the more energy you are feeding them and the more of them you help create.

Instead of an "anti-war" Rainbow, I hope to see a Peace Rainbow someday.

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Eleanore
Moderator

Posts: 112
From: Okinawa, Japan
Registered: Apr 2009

posted October 26, 2006 03:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And just in case ... I didn't bring other people up in my response to you, Rainbow, because I didn't feel it was necessary. If I have something to say to someone, I generally do. *sigh* And I hope you know that I'm not "attacking" you, even if you do end up feeling attacked. I apologize in advance if that's the case.

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Rainbow~
unregistered
posted October 27, 2006 01:02 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Eleanore tells me.....

quote:
I never called myself a "grief expert"

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~


Hi Eleanore.....

If you'll do me the curtesy of reading my post one more time.....you'll see that.....

I did not say you called yourself a "grief expert."

.....and the reason I did not say that is

Because -

you didn't!

I came to that conclusion all by myself.....

....and the reason I came to that conclusion is because you were offering me "lessons" (apparently thinking me ignorant on the subject) in grief and what grief is all about and what it can do to people etc., etc...

In fact, you even went so far as to tell me that it was amazing (amazing?) that I didn't allow myself one moment to be open to the possibility that grief can overwhelm somebody. (OMG as if I didn't already know!)

oh yes, you were even presumptuous enough to suggest that I go in search of "information" on the ways that people cope with death so that I might "inform myself" (Gotta admit to having some nerves touched by that suggestion!)


...because the fact is Eleanore I have personally experienced enough grief in my life to know what this grief stuff is all about (as in BEEN THERE! DONE THAT!) so when someone (who knows nothing about any grief I might have experienced in my life) assumes that I need lessons in grief..... It's understandable that I might be just a tad galled, by such impertinence and assume that the person offering their expertise in grief considers themself an "expert!"

So even tho you didn't actually come right out and call yourself such...the inference was there.

.....and yes I realize that grief can be overwhelming and cause people to do and say things that they might not do or say if they were not in a grieving state.... I still truly believe that grief had nothing whatsoever to do with Kevin Tillman's article..and yet YOU were so sure of it, you said that you KNEW it to be true!

Notice that you didn't hear me say that I KNEW grief didn't cause him to write the article.....and that's because I DON'T know.....


but I have a strong belief that grief had nothing to do with it....

For me to say I really KNEW would show me to be just a bit smug don'tcha think?

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Now, I must admit that the following statement by you, had me a bit confused....

quote:
just want you to know that it's been sad watching your posts change the way they have over the years

Eleanore, I had no idea you had been watching my posts over the years, because franklyI don't even know who YOU are! I don't think you and I have ever had any discussions on these forums, and if we have they have been so few or so inconsequental to me, that I've not really had time to sort you out from some of the others here that I also don't know very well....so I can't honestly say that I've been watching your posts over the years. because, I haven't!

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

What's more Eleanore.....in spite of our misunderstandings, I believe that you are a well intentioned person, but I still couldn't help but be a bit startled when reading what you said in the following quote...

quote:
Instead of an "anti-war" Rainbow, I hope to see a Peace Rainbow someday

Ah....wouldn't THAT be an oxymoron?

Isn't it a foregone conclusion that

anybody who is "anti-war" must HATE war?

And wouldn't it follow then, that they HATE war because war is the OPPOSITE of peace? which they prefer over war?

I haven't addressed verything that I feel has been misunderstood or unfair because I've learned that redundancy here can get pretty boring... *sigh*
....so this is all the time I'm going to give to address the remarks in your post, Eleanore.....

(except for this added PS.....want to let you know that I did not think you were attacking me, so there was no need to apologize for that)

No, I didn't think you were attacking me, but you did jump to some conclusions about me that were inaccurate and needed to be a ddressed....


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naiad
unregistered
posted October 27, 2006 01:58 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i don't have any personal grief issues related to this fake war....

and i identify very much with everything the above letter expresses.

i can't imagine though how any human being can not feel grief at the suffering, immorality, and loss of life and freedoms inherent in this fake war.

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Rainbow~
unregistered
posted October 27, 2006 02:23 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Pid.....

I noticed that you were talking about lizard people again.....

Must be you've had some recent encounters with some of them huh?

Tell me, what is that like?

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Eleanore
Moderator

Posts: 112
From: Okinawa, Japan
Registered: Apr 2009

posted October 27, 2006 03:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
naiad
Hello, how are you doing?

Well, neither can I imagine how any human being can not feel grief at the suffering and loss of life in this war. I'm sure I've never read anyone here express otherwise, though perhaps I missed it?

I'm not quite sure I understand whom or what you are referencing when you talk about immorality and loss of freedoms. There is a lot of immorality in this world, imo, and plenty of people whose freedoms are denied them, and I am saddended by that. Though I guess if someone wanted to get technical, we could end up discussing how what is immoral to one is not immoral to another, yada yada.

As for a fake war ... I'm not sure what you mean, either. I see that the fighting going on is quite real. I see that real people are dying. I see that there has been real progress and likewise real setbacks. Care to clarify things a bit for me?

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naiad
unregistered
posted October 27, 2006 05:13 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hi Eleanore ~

i don't believe it's a 'war'. it's genocide; it's for profit. these things are immoral. i don't believe i stated that anyone here had, or had not expressed grief about this war. should you disagree or agree, you might or might not still have the right to voice that opinion. one of the purposes of this war is to dismantle that right.

i fully expect those who profit from this war to disagree. great being an american, where you have the opportunity to choose what you wish to believe and express, is it not?

but for how much longer?

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Eleanore
Moderator

Posts: 112
From: Okinawa, Japan
Registered: Apr 2009

posted October 27, 2006 05:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, I'm sorry but I just don't believe it's genocide, naiad. I've read many of the posts here that are against this war ... I've read articles and blogs off here, too. I've spoken with people in RL who are also against this war. I've tried to see the logic and the sense in their claims but mostly I see paranoia, hysteria, denial, and a desire to blame somebody for the state of the world whether they are deserving of the blame or not ... and some of these people seem like they would be entirely lost without someone or something to fight against or lobby against or protest against. These are merely my opinions and I would never expect anyone else to share them.

However, I don't really feel I am one who is "profiting" from this war even though I disagree (not saying you said I was in particular, just for the sake of clarity).

But please don't misunderstand and think I am happy that we are engaged in a war. I don't know a single person who is happy about that.

I do think it's great to be an American, as a matter of fact. It's almost as great as being an Earthling or a human but not quite as great as being Spirit. Seriously, though, I do value our protected rights to believe and think and feel and express what we wish. I don't know for how much longer, exactly. I don't think anyone does. But I do know that overthrowing the American governmental system will not keep our freedoms protected.

I'm sorry but I just can't buy into the idea that the entire world is suffering under one insanely large conspiracy theory. I am not that negatively minded a person. Believe me, I've tried to understand where these ideas are coming from but they always come up short. I'm not saying everything the US has done is perfect or blemish free, either, btw.


I just think we are reaching a "critical mass" as far as human evolution is concerned and it has less to do with what is happening "out there" than it does with what is happening in you.

But again, these are just my opinions/ideas/beliefs, nothing more. I'm not presenting these as some great "truth" that I expect anyone else to adhere to.

-------


"You are not here to try to get the world to be just as you want it to be. You are here to create the world around you that you choose while you allow the world as others choose it to be to exist also." - Esther Hicks

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