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Author Topic:   More media confusion.
BornUnderDioscuri
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posted December 20, 2006 10:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BornUnderDioscuri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
One of my friends send me this link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTX3CZqDyOA

that shows some very rather unsettling film footage. Even though a topic similar to this has been discussed I feel as if people should pay attention more to such occurances. It is rather quite unfortunate that people did such a thing and got caught because now their credibility is completely shattered. Its like the boy who cried wolf...

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Sweet Stars
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posted December 21, 2006 12:25 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You might want to try an international news source. Not a JEWISH news source.



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BornUnderDioscuri
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posted December 21, 2006 09:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BornUnderDioscuri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That was 60 minute news...please dont tell me the good old "jews control US media" speech...its sad, cliche and overplayed. Plus its kinda in EVERY news source that certain film footages were faked. Its a huge scandal. One I find very sad because it undermines events in case they do (and they do) happen.

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Sweet Stars
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posted December 21, 2006 01:12 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Are you Jewish?

Is the guy who posted this Jewish also?

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pidaua
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posted December 21, 2006 02:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You are stepping on a slippery slope TP.... who cares if she is Jewish? Oh wait.. that's right, you have a problem with Jewish people don't you?

If you start your racist crap here again, you will end up getting your behind banned...AGAIN. Geez, how many times have you been kicked off this site? Can't you take a hint? LMAO...

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Sweet Stars
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posted December 21, 2006 02:08 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm asking because well. People take sides sometimes

I didn't tell her she was going to burn in hell or anything.

Quit exagerrating lady.

You're such a Sag!

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SecretGardenAgain
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posted December 21, 2006 02:18 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is the reply to both your videos.

The first video
(on the other thread):
shows the video as if there is a large proportion of Palestinian Snipers where the actual number of incidents is actually very low (if you put it in proportion with the last fifty years). It capitalizes on occasional occurrences to make ti seem like all Palestinians think that way. “The Palestinian terrorist?” particularly leads to that train of thought. Also, Hamas and other organizations are not targeting children on purpose, rather these children are left orphaned a lot of the time in war, and Hamas is the ONLY organization that puts them in school, provides them with financial aid. Of course if terrorist groups do that, and the Israeli govt doesn’t, then the kids will buy into the Hamas ideology (or any other group that thinks like that).

Checkpoints are more hassle to Palestinians than a help to Israelis. They have not helped in the number of suicide bombings going down. I have seen with my own eyes a Muslim Palestinian woman being strip searched in a checkpost and Israeli soldiers laughing at her and mocking her and basically sexually harassing her. The cars are all pulled over if you have the ‘palestinian colored ID card’. There is nothing as racist as that I have seen in my life except heard that pre civil war era black people were made to carry similar IDs. And the great thing is that it has even your grandfathers name on it, so in case you even convert to Judaism for instance, or try to get away with a ‘dubious name’ that could be either jewish or muslim, they don’t consider you legit because your grandfather’s name was Mohammad (or whatever).

Goal of life is not destroying Jews. Goal of life is survival, but unfortunately if Palestinians will be excluded from the education system and their only access to resources in the land is through terrorist organizations, then children will only reflect the education handed to them. It is not fair to blame them for it when there is no other choice. For Israelis on the other hand, their education system is institutionalized and recognized throughout the world: but it still spouts the same propaganda as the Palestinian ‘disorganized underground terrorist networks’ except on a national level. To me that is much more disturbing.

Rocks lol ! Are rocks a weapon? And so what if they sing about rocks did rocks ever kill anyone very funny! I think that’s hilarious. If someone is being oppressed please do not tell me they do not have the right to throw a rock. Boys will be boys and throw rocks. Big big deal huh.

Doesn’t it mean anything that if someone is willing to die than there is some reason that their life is not worth living? What about looking at WHY terrorists are made rather than how? That is the problem with Israel and America. They look for short term solutions to terrorism like violently suppressing terrorist organizations. But what they don’t understand what is KEY to understanding terrorism is that terrorism is not a person or a gun or an organization, it’s a mentality. A MENTALITY that is spread through people who are oppressed and hate. And that mentality will never finish even if all Palestinians are wiped off the map because there will be other angry people. Until there is justice, terrorism will unfortunately prevail as a violent alternative to peaceful negotiations.

The only way any difference is made is by Israelis stepping in-for instance when the Israeli govt was building this entirely unfair ‘wall’ around Jerusalem they were trying to exclude Palestinians from their own backyards where they make their living. Palestinians protested, they wrote letters, they made TV pleas. Then they started shooting and bombing when Israel took no notice. How did the problem end? By Rabbis for Peace stepping in and asking the Israeli government to fix the unfair gerrymandering of property. Lol do you see? Israelis only listen to Israelis. They don’t consider Palestinians worth their crap. Unfortunately this frustrates the Palis which then think, if they don’t give a flying shiat about us, then we will just bomb ourselves, because what is the purpose of living. Palestinians are powerless and helpless---they are helpless. Helpless in their revenge, helpless in their hatred, helpless in their love.

If terrorist organizations are guilty of perpetrating Inhumane propaganda then Inhumane treatment does take place by Israelis too which only exacerbates the situation. Hamas could say anything it wanted about isreal; palestinains wouldn’t listen until a part of them believed that indeed Israel was perpetrating acts of terror itself and thus Hamas was correct, even partially.

That is some sick mullah saying kill the jews, I have never heard that frankly in a Khotbah and ive prayed inside Al Aqsa, the Kaabah, inside Al Azhar in Egypt and the Badshah mosque in Pakistan as well as several mosques in the US. That must be some terrorist camp--its definitely not a normal masjid in so far as I can tell. i think that is disgusting frankly speaking, and the going to paradise by killing yourself is out of whack. Suicide is expressly forbidden in islam.

I do not agree with suicide bombings. AT ALL. That said, I can understand why other people do it. If your words don’t work, your pleas don’t work, your guns don’t work and you lose all your wars, well then chaos and guerilla warfare will be the only tactic left, and that doesn’t work either, in my opinion.
If the Israeli actions didn’t support Palestinian terrorist group words then truthfully they wouldn’t have half as much influence.

its just a onesided video of that. there is plenty of videos you could do the other way and they are also framing it like the whole society thingks like that, that there is no reason for them to be upset bla blah. I hate how this issue its so polarized. This video is just to villainize the palestininas and legitimize their dehumanization. War in this age (always actually but more so in the age of mass communication) is a war of information and misinformation. Israelis pounded the US with ideas of their security. Is Israeli security more important than palestinians security to an objective person? I think not!

Here are some pali videos to consider that are the exact same as you sent but from the Pali side not Israeli. LOL!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq6ccvwbvfY&mode=related&search= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0&NR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOu-NT0W2eg&mode=related&search=

And quite frankly, I think that the suggestion that people are faking their injuries is horrific. Its as offensive and disturbing as assuming that the Holocaust didn’t happen. When people I know personally have had loved ones die like this, and there is no HARD evidence that they are pretending, why don’t you go and look in Palestinian hospitals at the real number of injured people after these wars? Then maybe the videos wont seem like Hollywood. That is disgusting to even question it. If Israelis get hurt that is totally true but if it happens to Palestinians they are pretending.

First of all if anyone knows Arab culture they know that Arabs like to crowd around. They are groupist culture and they crowd around in weddings in funerals and everything between. They are melodramatic ok that is JUST the culture, study the culture. They beat their chest and moan and groan when people die. So crowds is NOTHING spectacular. If there weren’t crowds the video would say, oh where are the rest of the people? How unrealistic. Lol

As for the ambulances it is possible—it is a war zone and they are constantly encircling obviously. The fact that they come so quickly is nothing new. And of course most of these ppl are totally uneducated and not medics so they wont know how to put a person in—the focus is getting the person there as quick as possible not putting them in the right position.

I cant even believe im replying to that video. Its so ridiculous it doesn’t deserve a reply.

Its quite offensive.

And even if one DOES assume its true, would it not be possible that both sides do so for their own propagandistic purposes? Although I seriously doubt that Palestinians are ‘making up their injuries’. How disgusting.

Cameras will of course be there everywhere. This is one of the most televised conflicts in the world. And the arab league has like 22 countries , this is the hottest news 24/7, of course there will be at least 22 cameras in the war zone that are only arab. As for the man who was shooting and the people lining up behind himt hat could have well been a drill or practice for war. Couldn’t it??

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pidaua
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posted December 21, 2006 03:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
:P

and you... are such... a Gemini LOL....

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pidaua
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posted December 21, 2006 03:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
BTW... that was for SweetStars- not SGA.

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BornUnderDioscuri
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posted December 21, 2006 05:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BornUnderDioscuri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Seriously what does it matter my religious views. Im universalist/gnostic/ many other things...and who cares wats the guy who posted it. Doesnt change the fact...

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BornUnderDioscuri
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posted December 21, 2006 08:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BornUnderDioscuri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Gosh darn it SGA, I was trying to make a point about what that guy says terrorism does to a society not how many number of Palestinian snipers they are...and if the # is so low why do i hear it on the news every other day at least? This car was gunned down, that car was gunned down. iD say its RELATIVELY low to other methods but far from being low.

quote:
I have seen with my own eyes a Muslim Palestinian woman being strip searched in a checkpost and Israeli soldiers laughing at her and mocking her and basically sexually harassing her.

I was told of a story where a soldier didnt search a woman and she wound up blowing herself up killing and him comrade. After that they are strictly ordered to search EVERYONE...

quote:
And the great thing is that it has even your grandfathers name on it, so in case you even convert to Judaism for instance, or try to get away with a ‘dubious name’ that could be either jewish or muslim, they don’t consider you legit because your grandfather’s name was Mohammad (or whatever).

Its a saddening reaction...one i dont see how could be avoided, if perhaps u have an idea of a better solution to protect themselves and keep track of who eneters the country im willing to listen. Though the truth remains those who want to get in do anyways and this does inconvinence ordinary sitizens more.

quote:
Goal of life is not destroying Jews. Goal of life is survival, but unfortunately if Palestinians will be excluded from the education system and their only access to resources in the land is through terrorist organizations, then children will only reflect the education handed to them. I

For an average Palestinian yes, for Hamas and other such organizations clearly not...

quote:
It is not fair to blame them for it when there is no other choice.

Not denying it.

quote:
Rocks lol ! Are rocks a weapon? And so what if they sing about rocks did rocks ever kill anyone very funny! I think that’s hilarious. If someone is being oppressed please do not tell me they do not have the right to throw a rock. Boys will be boys and throw rocks. Big big deal huh.

See thats what makes me mad...please point me in the direction where i said rocks were wrong...please im dying to be shown that....i send u the first video for the EXPLANATION of what TERRORISM is MEANT to DO to a SOCIETY! Wasnt a blame of Paletsinians or Pro-Israeli just like wat it does...like the man says the checkpoints make ppl feel more unsafe cuz they are a reminder, every day could be last...etc that was my ONLY point and i said it many many many times and ppl as usual choose to ignore it so WATEVER!

quote:
Doesn’t it mean anything that if someone is willing to die than there is some reason that their life is not worth living?

Actually in my opinion YES...if your willing to die and give up on your life that means your life isnt worth it...and I speak as someone who is very closely familiar with suicide...

quote:
What about looking at WHY terrorists are made rather than how? T

No im looking as to why terrorism is a desired means of coercion...

quote:
They look for short term solutions to terrorism like violently suppressing terrorist organizations. But what they don’t understand what is KEY to understanding terrorism is that terrorism is not a person or a gun or an organization, it’s a mentality. A MENTALITY that is spread through people who are oppressed and hate.

That I agree with...

And as for the wall...i support it strongly...u own a house u feel free to build any damn wall around it...hell China did it...high fences make good neighbours...

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Lol do you see? Israelis only listen to Israelis.

DUHHH!! Im not even gonna bother saying thats wrong...its not...name a freaking country that doesnt listen to its own "kind"...im dying to know what Palestinian listens to Israeli pleas unless there is a tank staring at them...seriouly thats human nature...u listen to who u listen....Brits wont listen to American government, French wont listen to Germans, and so on...why should Israel listen to the pleases of the supposed enemy...seriously...its logic...is it right? not really...but is it sensible, most certainly. Its a government not an entity. It even allowed 2 Palestinian representatives into ITS OWN Parliament (Knesset)...is it a big deal...yes it is despite under representation its still a step...idiot Arafat undermined all possible peace talks...

Betcha no one knows Rabin was gonna give him all the settlements and all that stuff...hence he got assasinated...wat about no one speaks about how some of the Israeli settlements wwere took apart just last year and the Israelis cried and they called in their OWN army to kick their OWN people out...no one f** remembers that....SMALL STEPS! Do u see Hamas stopping fighting? NO...they are on brinks of CIVIL WAR! FOR POWER! AMONG THEMSELVES!

quote:
Helpless in their revenge, helpless in their hatred, helpless in their love.

Omg u should read this book "Revenge" by Laura Blumenfeld...opens ones eyes and it really touched me...

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BornUnderDioscuri
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posted December 21, 2006 08:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BornUnderDioscuri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"An eye for an eye" or "turn the other cheek"? Which course of action would you take if your father were shot?

Laura Blumenfeld found herself dwelling on this question for 13 years, finally answering it with REVENGE.

In March 1986, four tourists in Jerusalem were shot in the course of a few weeks, two fatally. Laura's father, American rabbi David Blumenfeld, was shot while walking back to his hotel from the Western Wall. The bullet merely grazed David Blumenfeld's skull but it deeply wounded his daughter's psyche. A staff writer at The Washington Post, Laura Blumenfeld decided to face the effect this bullet had on her and her family by exploring the possibility of revenge against the shooter, a member of a rebel faction of the PLO.

REVENGE is uniquely personal, and Blumenfeld reveals much of herself in the writing of it. She dissects her parents' marriage, their divorce --- so new and raw at the time of the shooting --- and their evolving relationship as they went on to marry other people. Indeed, Blumenfeld's conflicted feelings about her parents' divorce and her childlike fantasies for their reunion play a distinct role in spurring on her dream of revenge.

Blumenfeld is equally frank about the trials and tribulations of her own recent marriage to Baruch Weiss, a federal prosecutor and the son of a Talmudic scholar. Baruch and Laura intend to spend the first year of their marriage in Jerusalem, where Laura's parents also honeymooned for a year and a location familiar to Laura through various journalistic assignments. This year has another component: Laura is on sabbatical in Israel ostensibly to research a book on revenge.

In reality, her intention is much less professional.

"I was not a large person, neither ideological, nor heroic, yet for years I was inhabited by a grandiose thought: my father's injury should not go unanswered. The shooting was my first glimpse of the presence of evil in the world --- someone had tried to murder my father. I was born to American parents who believed the world was good, who raised us in exquisite illusion. We were taught as children to respect the sanctity of the individual. The shooter blew a hole through that. He became a symbol of hatred and violence. He became an emblem of terror. Terrorism, I believed, was not so much about killing people as dehumanizing them. I had to find a way to challenge the terrorist way of thinking. Confronting him inevitably. Not with an act of violence --- the revenge that I wanted was of a different kind, one that responded to the heart of the crime. I set myself a goal that was outsized and naive, and most of all elusive: I wanted him to realize he was wrong."

Blumenfeld proceeds to do the seemingly impossible: she tracks down Omar Khatib, the Palestinian who shot her father, now serving a prison term for his crime.

To get close to Khatib while she considers her revenge, Blumenfeld presents herself to his family as an objective journalist interested in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, careful not to give the surname that would identify her as the victim's daughter. Over the course of many months, Blumenfeld insinuates herself with the shooter's family, obsessed with how best to avenge her father. This contact with Khatib's family has an unexpected effect, blurring the edges of the stereotypical terrorist Blumenfeld has formed in her mind."


Awesome book...and the ending is very sweet and unexpected...highly recommend.

quote:
That is some sick mullah saying kill the jews, I have never heard that frankly in a Khotbah and ive prayed inside Al Aqsa, the Kaabah, inside Al Azhar in Egypt and the Badshah mosque in Pakistan as well as several mosques in the US. That must be some terrorist camp--its definitely not a normal masjid in so far as I can tell. i think that is disgusting frankly speaking, and the going to paradise by killing yourself is out of whack. Suicide is expressly forbidden in islam.

Ill definately agree...no true mosque (which are by far some of the most beautiful structures ive seen, they make me feel at peace) would be teaching this hatred. BUT I will tell u my friend lived in Egypt near a mosque and that Imam called for jihad against Christians...she heard it herself with her own ears...so it does happen...not in Al-Azhar of course...that would be shameful...

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I do not agree with suicide bombings. AT ALL. That said, I can understand why other people do it. If your words don’t work, your pleas don’t work, your guns don’t work and you lose all your wars, well then chaos and guerilla warfare will be the only tactic left, and that doesn’t work either, in my opinion.
If the Israeli actions didn’t support Palestinian terrorist group words then truthfully they wouldn’t have half as much influence.

Not disagreeing with you...honestly u have some good arguments here and there and i can see where your coming from, i just wish ud see where i am...

quote:
And quite frankly, I think that the suggestion that people are faking their injuries is horrific. I

Thats where i disagree...some of the videos are faked and it was well proven, Hezbollah faked some photos and other things...this is far from saying MOST are faked...NOT AT ALL...most injuries are real and severe and sad...but my argument is the people who do fake it are sick morons because this could EASILY be used against them...whats stopping any nation from claiming they fake it all and then doing w/e they want...

quote:
When people I know personally have had loved ones die like this, and there is no HARD evidence that they are pretending, why don’t you go and look in Palestinian hospitals at the real number of injured people after these wars? Then maybe the videos wont seem like Hollywood. That is disgusting to even question it. If Israelis get hurt that is totally true but if it happens to Palestinians they are pretending.

Get a grip damn it...i didnt say all injuries are fake or the numbers are fake...it was a well known fact that Hezbollah got caught faking a funeral not that long ago. Its the same footage recycled...in fact its the only one they have so one must go by claiming that ONLY ONE was faked...but im saying this does bad things for their credibility...and wats with the finger pointing...


quote:
First of all if anyone knows Arab culture they know that Arabs like to crowd around. They are groupist culture and they crowd around in weddings in funerals and everything between. They are melodramatic ok that is JUST the culture, study the culture. They beat their chest and moan and groan when people die. So crowds is NOTHING spectacular. If there weren’t crowds the video would say, oh where are the rest of the people? How unrealistic.

Ermm yea...didnt deny that either...

LOOK IM NOT SAYING THE INJURIES ARENT REAL...THE DEAD MAN WALKING IS...ALL THAT WAS KNOWN IS THERE WAS A FAKE FUNERAL...THAT WAS CAUGHT BY PALESTINIAN CAMERA MEN...THATS ALL IM STICKING TOO...THE THINGS THAT ARE UNKNOWN LIKE THE INJURIES COULD GO EITHER WAY...


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Sweet Stars
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posted December 22, 2006 01:55 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good point SGA.

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SecretGardenAgain
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posted December 22, 2006 04:35 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Gosh darn it SGA, I was trying to make a point about what that guy says terrorism does to a society not how many number of Palestinian snipers they are...and if the # is so low why do i hear it on the news every other day at least? This car was gunned down, that car was gunned down. iD say its RELATIVELY low to other methods but far from being low.

Well the answer to that question at least in my eyes is this. Yes Hezbollah does some propaganda that is untrue to further their cause. Im not a fan of Hezbollah in the first place (how could they have stood by and seen so many Muslims die because of something they started, how can they live with their conscience, and call themselves Muslim??? Muslims save other Muslims, they don’t leave them open to other country’s military attacks). Anyways just like Hezbollah spouts its own propaganda (the dead man reincarnating lol) similarly Israeli govt also spouts its own propaganda and certain events from years ago are played again as if they happened all over again. Certain events are exaggerated and shown again and again whereas they do not happen again and again. Interesting huh?

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I was told of a story where a soldier didnt search a woman and she wound up blowing herself up killing and him comrade. After that they are strictly ordered to search EVERYONE...

Even when they do search people get by and do blast bombs. My point is that searching has NOT helped. Its only caused harm. Check the years on when Israel instituted the checkpoints. Have the bombings gone up or down? Answer: they’ve gone up. So were the checkpoints effective? Answer: No. So what did the checkpoints do exactly? Answer: they increased Palestinian frustration which led to more and cleverer suicide bombings.
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Its a saddening reaction...one i dont see how could be avoided, if perhaps u have an idea of a better solution to protect themselves and keep track of who eneters the country im willing to listen. Though the truth remains those who want to get in do anyways and this does inconvinence ordinary sitizens more.

Yes exactly my point. Its an inconvenience to both sides. It doesn’t help. Other methods have to be sought out. Why is it necessary to card all Palestinians? I don’t see how it curbs terrorism. AT ALL. The only solution I see is for the Israeli government to stop creating terrorists by its oppressive policies. If it stops, the majority of Palestinians who are now frustrated, weak and have sympathy for the terrorists will stop having sympathy, because they will see that Israel is actually trying to help them. When the Palestinians stop tolerating the terrorists amongst them, then is when terrorism will truly be done away with! Right now they see terrorists as the only response to Israel’s state-sponsored terrorism.
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See thats what makes me mad...please point me in the direction where i said rocks were wrong...please im dying to be shown that....i send u the first video for the EXPLANATION of what TERRORISM is MEANT to DO to a SOCIETY! Wasnt a blame of Paletsinians or Pro-Israeli just like wat it does...like the man says the checkpoints make ppl feel more unsafe cuz they are a reminder, every day could be last...etc that was my ONLY point and i said it many many many times and ppl as usual choose to ignore it so WATEVER!


Im not ignoring it. I picked on a phrase RIGHT out of the video where he says that kids are encouraged to throw rocks, and that is supposed to show how evil they are. LOL what a joke. Rocks? Is that the best crime they could charge the Palis with? That is just sad.

And yes terrorism rips apart a society. Just as Hamas terrorizes the Israelis—makes them feel unsafe, similarly the Israeli govt terrorizes the Palestinian citizens and makes them feel unsafe, by rolling into Gaza and Ramallah whenever it darn well pleases and bulldozing a few homes, killing a few women and children, taking in hundreds of Palestinian men as prisoners without any reason. There is no scale to measure fear like a Richter scale measures earthquakes, but I can assure you that fear on the Pali side is at least as much if not GREATER about terrorism on behalf of the Israeli govt, than the Israelis feel for Hamas. Israelis know that Hamas is a terrorist organization ; it has a limited number of people and weapons. Palis on the other hand see that Israel is a whole nation with TONS of weaponry that is like neverending, and it has much more people than it seems to have, because the US armed forces are basically on Israels side too!

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And as for the wall...i support it strongly...u own a house u feel free to build any damn wall around it...hell China did it...high fences make good neighbours...

Jerusalem already HAS a wall. The purpose of the new wall isn’t to fence in Israeli citizen property its to exclude Palestinians from their property. Rabbis Krause and Einstein here in Southern California, who are some of the most famous Rabbis in the US, (Ive studied Jewish studies with both) are strongly opposed to the wall. Funny that you ‘support’ it. They both pointed out so many evils the walls were committing and how they helped stop them through Rabbis for Peace.
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DUHHH!! Im not even gonna bother saying thats wrong...its not...name a freaking country that doesnt listen to its own "kind"...im dying to know what Palestinian listens to Israeli pleas unless there is a tank staring at them...seriouly thats human nature...u listen to who u listen....Brits wont listen to American government, French wont listen to Germans, and so on...why should Israel listen to the pleases of the supposed enemy...seriously...its logic...is it right? not really...but is it sensible, most certainly. Its a government not an entity. It even allowed 2 Palestinian representatives into ITS OWN Parliament (Knesset)...is it a big deal...yes it is despite under representation its still a step...idiot Arafat undermined all possible peace talks...

Arafat is an idiot, that is true. But to say that Israels ignoring Palestinians is correct is just way too wrong. How can you expect peaceful coexistence when theyre not going to heed Palestinian claims and protests? Any government who cares an iota about the people it lives around and with will listen to their demands at least even if they don’t heed them. Israel did not for one second consider the Palestinian comments but as soon as a Jewish Rabbi said the EXACT same thing they turn around and do it. How plain wrong, and quite racist as well!
Not every country is like that –I beg to differ. Several successful multiethnic countries have listened to their minorities or at least placated them with some sort of financial and political compensation. Case in point is India.
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Betcha no one knows Rabin was gonna give him all the settlements and all that stuff...hence he got assasinated...wat about no one speaks about how some of the Israeli settlements wwere took apart just last year and the Israelis cried and they called in their OWN army to kick their OWN people out...no one f** remembers that....SMALL STEPS! Do u see Hamas stopping fighting? NO...they are on brinks of CIVIL WAR! FOR POWER! AMONG THEMSELVES!

Actually that move of Jewish settlements from Gaza (is that what your referring to?) was a political move on part of the Israeli govt. they put the Israeli citizens in other places where they displaced more Palestinians. Its true—check it out, most of them got property in Jerusalem and such, and it helped in the building of the wall, gerrymandering basically.
Yeah Hamas and Fatah are stupid. I don’t even want to go there theyre such a disappointment. Such a disappointment! They deserve what comes to them, but the Palestinian people, I feel sorry for them.
quote:

An eye for an eye" or "turn the other cheek"? Which course of action would you take if your father were shot?
Laura Blumenfeld found herself dwelling on this question for 13 years, finally answering it with REVENGE.
Terrorism, I believed, was not so much about killing people as dehumanizing them. I had to find a way to challenge the terrorist way of thinking. Confronting him inevitably. Not with an act of violence --- the revenge that I wanted was of a different kind, one that responded to the heart of the crime. I set myself a goal that was outsized and naive, and most of all elusive: I wanted him to realize he was wrong."
Blumenfeld proceeds to do the seemingly impossible: she tracks down Omar Khatib, the Palestinian who shot her father, now serving a prison term for his crime.

Awesome book...and the ending is very sweet and unexpected...highly recommend.



It sounds interesting. Actually, terrorists are hellbent on that very same principle—revenge. It’s a pretty nasty emotion to get caught up in.
quote:
Not disagreeing with you...honestly u have some good arguments here and there and i can see where your coming from, i just wish ud see where i am...

I do! I just don’t agree lol. When I went to Israel I felt myself arguing in favor of the Palestinians when I was with Israelis, and arguing in favor of the Israelis when I was with Palestinians. Double standard? Nope, I can actually make a pretty good argument about justifications for isreal’s acts , but I would rather play devil’s advocate and get people to see the other side. Personally, I am pro Palestinian and quite anti Israeli govt (at least current policies) although I am not anti Israeli citizens and I do think they should have every right to live there as long as they don’t usurp all the resources, land and water particularly (major bone of contention), as wlel as all the military resources (leading to more bloodshed) or political power. It should be representative.

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BornUnderDioscuri
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posted December 22, 2006 06:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BornUnderDioscuri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Muslims save other Muslims

And in general help other people.

quote:
Anyways just like Hezbollah spouts its own propaganda (the dead man reincarnating lol) similarly Israeli govt also spouts its own propaganda and certain events from years ago are played again as if they happened all over again.

Possibly...

quote:
Even when they do search people get by and do blast bombs. My point is that searching has NOT helped. Its only caused harm.

Which is exactly what i said...and so did the video...the checkpoints only serve as a reminder to ppl that they are unsafe.

quote:
he only solution I see is for the Israeli government to stop creating terrorists by its oppressive policies.

Thats obviously too vague...i want to know ur exact plans for Israel to still do something in its BEST interest and not "opress"Paletsinians...im curious cuz i am out of ideas.

quote:
I picked on a phrase RIGHT out of the video where he says that kids are encouraged to throw rocks, and that is supposed to show how evil they are.

And i will repeat for the 180th time...i showed u the video in order for you to see that quote where the man says "terrorism is meant to make people unsafe in their daily lives" not the evil rock throwing kids (i disagree with that obviously) or anything else...stick to the point please

quote:
ust as Hamas terrorizes the Israelis—makes them feel unsafe, similarly the Israeli govt terrorizes the Palestinian citizens and makes them feel unsafe, by rolling into Gaza and Ramallah whenever it darn well pleases and bulldozing a few homes, killing a few women and children, taking in hundreds of Palestinian men as prisoners without any reason.

EXACTLY! Now we ar5e getting somwehre...they are doing the same thing to each other just to prove they can...

quote:
Funny that you ‘support’ it.

Dude who cares if some Rabbis are against it...im not even religious...i support it not because i think Palestinian property should be seized but because I think it will cut down on the number of people being able to sneak in with bombs and stuff. Its easier to patrol one door than an open area...perhaps u should have asked me why i support it before confluding that its funny...

quote:
Arafat is an idiot, that is true. But to say that Israels ignoring Palestinians is correct is just way too wrong.

I didnt say its correct i said thats the way things work...if your out to reform the world (which i hope everyone will in due time) then ok lets pay attention to that but such trifles we will be here forever...people forget its also POLITICS...

quote:
Any government who cares an iota about the people it lives around and with will listen to their demands at least even if they don’t heed them.

Here is a sad fact...NO government cares and IOTA about the ppl it lives around...it may ON A RARE occasion care about its OWN population but others...no way....rarity...very big rarity...is it right? of course not...is it how the world is? precisly

quote:
Several successful multiethnic countries have listened to their minorities or at least placated them with some sort of financial and political compensation.

Ha but thats where u run into a VERY VERY VERY huge problem...should the Palestinians be treated as an Israeli minority or as a separate nation (as they wish)...if Israeli minority then they should be given ALLLLLL the same rights as ANY of the israeli citizens BUT they have to be loyal to the government they live under (one of the philosophies of Tariq Ramadan that i like), on the other hand if they are a separate NATION, then Israel does not owe them anything. If they want autonomy then they should have it and govern themselves, have their oown army, taxation system, welfare system etc...Israel doesnt owe them a dime if they wish to be a separate state... (this isnt counting reparations which they may or may not owe them) i mean on top of that...and while yes some sucessful multiethci states pay attention to the minorities, they are a minorit5ies within their own state...they arent ppl from a neighboring country...I personally would like to treat Palestine the way it wishes as a separate state...and i think they should have one...more power to them...

quote:
Actually that move of Jewish settlements from Gaza (is that what your referring to?) was a political move on part of the Israeli govt. they put the Israeli citizens in other places where they displaced more Palestinians. Its true—check it out, most of them got property in Jerusalem and such, and it helped in the building of the wall, gerrymandering basically.

Okay fine but those people who were crying for leaving the home that hs been there for generations...im assuming since they lived there and didnt move to Jerusalem on their own they probably liked lving there and did not wish moving to Jerusalem so it wasnt much of a bonus to them..who cares about wta it gave the Israeli govt when the average citizen suffered...

quote:
Yeah Hamas and Fatah are stupid. I don’t even want to go there theyre such a disappointment. Such a disappointment! They deserve what comes to them, but the Palestinian people, I feel sorry for them.

See once again we are on the same page...i second that will all my heart...

Seriously yhat book was awesome, made me cry, she actually totally chages her mind. Goes through the world studying revenge, asks every Muslim cleric whats the proper way to attain revenge learns from other people who got it in the end and ultimately decides for forgivness. Its very awesome. She helps the said terrorist be released and stuff.

quote:
When I went to Israel I felt myself arguing in favor of the Palestinians when I was with Israelis, and arguing in favor of the Israelis when I was with Palestinians.

My darling you live my kind of life...i do the EXACT same thing... trust me...really do
God dare I say it your such a Gemini Scorpio rising Libra...id know...im one too...seriously devil's advocate is my favorite job. Even though im pretty anti Palestinian actions for the most part.

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Dulce Luna
Newflake

Posts: 7
From: The Asylum, NC
Registered: Apr 2009

posted December 23, 2006 10:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dulce Luna     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The whole video sounds biast, even the reporter does. Lets not blast Sweet Stars just yet, I mean the U.S. does support Israel so naturally...

And Anyways, there are so many things I could say abut this video.....

1. Ambulances
Well gee, if you're country is basically a warzone do you really think that you, the paramedic, would be sitting at home playing cards? And about them not loading the guy properly: the people who brought the guy were the fighters themselves....not trained paramedics. And it is war btw, it does get hectic in a warzone in case that guy doesn't know.

2. Why don't they run away from the gunfire? BECAUSE THAT'S THE FIGHTING MENTALITY.


3 Was that just Propoganda?
I don't know, is that 60 minutes report propoganda? The U.S. does support Israel after all. And even if the Palestinians used propoganda, I'm sure the Israelis do it, and in fact the U.S. does it too. Why would you use that example to discredit the Palestianians?? I ask because this video is suggesting that everything is perfectly fine in Palestine, there are no civilian casualities there, no warzone, no homes are being demolished,etc. The Palestinians are just faking it. Its very offensive if you think about it; almost as offensive as..... the Denial of the Holocaust.

The irony is that if you look at the backdrop of that video it totally blows away 60 minute's theory.

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BornUnderDioscuri
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posted December 23, 2006 02:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BornUnderDioscuri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thats not true its not fighting mentality to run towards gun fire...its fighting mentality to dig a trench or take cover and shoot from there.

quote:
And even if the Palestinians used propoganda, I'm sure the Israelis do it, and in fact the U.S. does it too. Why would you use that example to discredit the Palestianians??

No one is denying Israel/US use propoganda...2 wrongs dont make a right...Second of all i didnt use that to discredit Palestinians. That was in response to a scandal that happened about a month ago where they really did get caught faking something. It was Hezbollah not the Palestinians btw. My point is people (Palestinians) have to be very careful with such things because this could be used to discredit them. I didnt use it myself but it could very well be an example. The other video (Hezbollah one) definately faked...seriously dead man rising during a funeral no questions there. I think its a negative idea towards every conflict not just Palestinian one because anyone now can say "if they faked it everyone does"...doesnt mean its rigth...just possible

quote:
The Palestinians are just faking it. Its very offensive if you think about it; almost as offensive as..... the Denial of the Holocaust.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL thats right if Hezbollah faked a video the Holocaust must not have happened because they had cameras back then and taped everything....right right...good logic Im not the Palestinians are faking it...i said Hezbollah got caught faking a funeral...the dead man got up and all and my angle is that was very very bad rep for them because now ppl can claim they are ALL faking it...haha id die laughing if the U.S. held a multinational convention Ahmadinejad style (with Baruch Goldstein if he was still alive) between people who think Palestinians are faking it...but they wont...why? Cuz they have common sense and humanity, something Ahmadinejad clearly lacks.

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Dulce Luna
Newflake

Posts: 7
From: The Asylum, NC
Registered: Apr 2009

posted December 23, 2006 06:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dulce Luna     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL thats right if Hezbollah faked a video the Holocaust must not have happened because they had cameras back then and taped everything....right right...good logic

No, no, no. You clearly just missed my point. I said that this video is suggesting that the Palestinians are making everything up (The Civilian Casualities, the Warzone,etc.) which to me is just as bad as Ahmadinejad denying The Holocaust.( BTW, I could've sworn that Hizbollah was never mentioned in this video,just the Foreign-endorsed Palestinian journalists) Who cares if there was no news conference, its exactly the same thing. And I never said anything about the U.S. denying it, just this 60 Minute Clip...which is alot like Propoganda. And yes the fact that Israel and the U.S. uses propoganda as well does matter because now neither have anything on the Palestinians about the use of it and they both just can it.

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Sweet Stars
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posted December 23, 2006 06:47 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All world leaders are corrupt. Trust no one but yourself.

They don't care about us.

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BornUnderDioscuri
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posted December 23, 2006 07:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BornUnderDioscuri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh sorry Dulce, ive been getting that a lot lately and I misunderstood you, i appologize. I know Hezbollah isnt mentioned but there was another thread in GU with Hezbollah in it, and my point was that because of that every situation can now be claimed to be fake. One of the scenes from the video is the funeral that Hezbollah faked. The rest could very well be real but that one fake butchers the credibility of everything else. Sadly...

And Sweet Stars I certainly agree with you, i have been saying that over and over again. Sadly its definately true.

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cancerrg
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posted December 26, 2006 07:35 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ok why do you two(Sg and Bud) say , arafat was an idiot ? just curious .
my feeling is , he had very less options .

again , same about hamas and hezbollah ?
care to elobrate !

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BornUnderDioscuri
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posted December 26, 2006 09:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BornUnderDioscuri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Because fact of the matter he had plenty choices, a few of Israeli leaders offered to remove much of settlements and allow him to start a country of his own (which is what they want now) and he said no because the only way he wants it done is to have Israel not exist, a statement he later changed to "giving up most of the land and Jerusalem" which they just wont. Plus he called for the intifada twice, mid talks which obviously ended any form of diplomacy. Thats why I think he was a fool

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SecretGardenAgain
unregistered
posted December 28, 2006 02:16 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Oh sorry Dulce, ive been getting that a lot lately and I misunderstood you, i appologize. I know Hezbollah isnt mentioned but there was another thread in GU with Hezbollah in it, and my point was that because of that every situation can now be claimed to be fake. One of the scenes from the video is the funeral that Hezbollah faked. The rest could very well be real but that one fake butchers the credibility of everything else. Sadly...

No it doesnt thats one of the biggest generalizations Ive heard. I was reading a book by a Holocaust survivor the other day, who was active in catching Nazi criminals in Germany after he was elected official in the post Nazi govt there. He wrote about things like Nazis making bath soap and lampshades out of Jewish victims of the Holocaust, which is something that MOST Jewish scholars have refuted and called an exaggeration if not an outright lie. One of the most respected Rabbis , politicians and professors in Israel I think his name is Yehuda Barus or something, last name starts with a B i will come back later to post his name (in a bit of a hurry right now) said that the guy was outright lying and commercializing his victimhood.

Now that doesnt mean that his statements that there were concentration camps for isntance are trash because of this one exaggeration or lie. And in fact another Holocaust survivor who became a psychologist examining the effect of severe trauma on people (he particularly studied the Holocaust) stated that most victim accounts have at least some exaggerations in them. And Israeli govt media propoganda def capitalizes on that too, so that doesnt mean that the history of the Holocaust should be undermined or that does not justify Holocaust denial (ala Ahmadinejad).

Similarly if ONE funeral was faked that has been proven does not mean that Hezbollah can be called a big lying orgainzation and nothing they say can be trusted. Because by your standards every government and every media vehicle and every person on earth is not trustworthy from Hitler to Holocaust victims to Palestinians to terrorists alike so everyone is ont he same credibility footing?

Totally does NOT make sense from a logical standpoint. Knew you were on a slippery slope there, I think you took it too far if you look at the evidence and your consequent argument....

Will come back later I have so much stuff to write about your and DDs convo on shia sunni, for one.

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jwhop
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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted December 28, 2006 04:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We've covered some of this ground about Hezbollah and Hamas propaganda before.
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/002438.html
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/002439.html
http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/

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jwhop
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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
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posted December 28, 2006 04:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's another staged event by Hezbollah...rocket attack on an ambulance.

Same ambulance bigger picture. Notice the rocket supposedly struck dead center in the cross on top.

Same ambulance, notice the unpainted flange with the screw holes around the edge...where the flashing light/revolving light was removed. No rocket attack at all. Rather a staged photo op for brain dead journalists led around by their little noses by Hezbollah propaganda artists.

Notice the windshield caved IN not blown OUT as it would be if a rocket had exploded inside...as was claimed by Hezbollah. Oh, and where's the blood from the supposedly injured man who was supposedly inside when the alleged rocket allegedly struck the ambulance? Oh, and how come the ambulance wasn't totally destroyed and burned...as it would have been if struck by a rocket?

I haven't even gotten to "green helmet guy" the supposed Lebanese emergency rescue worker who shows up all over Lebanon at the scene of every alleged Israeli attack....and always in the forefront of leading photo journalists around to the staged attacks. I would call him "head of the Hezbollah Propaganda Bureau".

The street scenes in Palestinian territory were most definitely staged. The actors and directors staged the events for photo journalists who had to have known it was all fake but dutifully filmed it and presented it to viewers as a real event.

Nor have I mentioned the woman who showed up in other Hezbollah propaganda claiming to be a resident/owner of a building in Lebanon which was allegedly rocketed/bombed by Israeli jets. Only problem, Hezbollah used the very same woman in numerous pieces of propaganda in attacks on numerous buildings. Rich Lebanese woman no doubt and extremely unlucky to be the owner of soooo many attacked buildings.

The dead man coming back to life to jump back on the pallet so he could be properly buried...twice has been brought up by BUD and it's funny as hell...if it were not for the fact that his death at the hands of Israel is a total lie.

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