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Author Topic:   GIs Petition Congress To End Iraq War
Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted March 20, 2008 10:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
GIs Petition Congress To End Iraq War


(CBS) Americans in the military have been asked to make extraordinary sacrifices in recent years, particularly in Iraq, where the casualties are mounting, the tours are being extended, and some of them have had enough.

Correspondent Lara Logan heard dissension in the ranks from a large group of service members who are fed up and have decided to go public. They’re not going AWOL, they're not disobeying orders or even refusing to fight in Iraq. But they are doing something unthinkable to many in uniform: bypassing the chain of command to denounce a war they’re in the middle of fighting.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"As a patriotic citizen who served two combat tours in Iraq, I just feel like this war, it's simply just not working out anymore, and soldiers are dying there everyday," says Specialist Kevin Torres.

Torres didn’t always feel that way—he enlisted in the Army right out of high school, after 9/11. He has twice served in Iraq, patrolling the mainly Kurdish north of the country, and carrying out combat patrols and goodwill missions.

"I joined because I just wanted to make a difference. I wanted to be a part of our generation's war," Torres says.

"You've been on two deployments and you didn't always feel this way. Was there a point at which, you know, something you experienced that made you think," Logan asks.

"Yeah. In January, we were doing routine presence patrol through the city of Hawija, and one of our trucks was hit by a roadside bomb, an IED, and it killed four of the soldiers out of the five that were in the truck. And during the recovery of the fallen soldiers all the debris outside of the truck. And we just had the truck was loaded with school supplies and soccer balls and crayons and notebooks and coloring books. We just wanna help. And it was just a really eye-opening and frustrating experience. Because we're still getting killed out there," he says.

It’s a sentiment echoed by all of the service members who are part of this protest.

60 Minutes gathered some of them in Washington, but they had to be off base, out of uniform and off duty to speak to Logan on camera.

They’ve all sent a petition, called “Appeal For Redress,” to their individual members of Congress, letting them know that “Staying in Iraq will not work” and it’s “time for U.S. troops to come home.”

"It's not about speaking out against the military or speaking out against the war. It's just, we're here four years down the line and there's not an end to it," Sgt. Evans, one of the dissenters, tells Logan.

"What are we trying to accomplish over there? I mean, what is what are we trying to do in Iraq?" another soldier, Sgt. Ronn Cantu asks.

What does he think?

"I don't even know anymore," he tells Logan.

"Well, what would you say to the people that say, 'Alright, it's clear that the war in Iraq is incredibly difficult and life is really tough both for Americans and for Iraqis, but pulling out's not the answer. It's only gonna get worse. There's gonna be all-out civil war,'" Logan asks.

"How does that become the default? Either someday, we have to leave. We can't stay in Iraq for the next thousand years," one soldier remarks.

Asked if there's a possibility that Iraq might be better off if American troops stay and finish the job, Cantu says, "But then our lives are hanging in the balance of a flip of a coin."

"That doesn't seem worth it to you? Those are not good odds?" Logan asks.

"Yes. I mean, we volunteered to make a difference, not just be part of an experiment," he replies.

(CBS) The idea for this protest by active duty and reserve service members came from two enlisted men who served in the war: Marine Sgt. Liam Madden, who got to Iraq during the battle of Falluja, and his military commitment is up this winter, and Naval Petty Officer Jonathan Hutto, who serves on the USS Theodore Roosevelt, which was deployed in the Gulf during Operation Iraqi Freedom.

"I'm not anti-war. I'm not a pacifist. I'm not opposed to protecting our country and defending our principles. But at the same time, as citizens it's our obligation to have a questioning attitude, you know, about policy," Hutto says,

"Just because we volunteered for the military, doesn't mean we volunteered to put our lives in unnecessary harm, and to carry out missions that are illogical and immoral," Madden adds.

They say they’re permitted to express their opinions under a number of military rules, which the group lists. Among them is the 1995 Military Whistleblower Act. Although it prohibits them from speaking against the Commander in Chief or any of their superior officers, it does allow “Members of the Armed Forces…” to speak on their own behalf and “to make a protected communication to… Congress.”

"A senior officer in the Marine Corps said to me when I asked him about the Appeal, what was his opinion – and he served in both Iraq wars – he said, 'I have a hard enough time getting young men to put themselves in harm’s way, without having to have men in uniform tell them it’s not worth it,'" Logan remarks.

"We’re not telling young men and women that it’s not worth it, to serve their country. We’ve served our country. The men and women who have signed the appeal have served their country. So those, we’re not saying it’s not worth it. We’re saying that, if you have reservations about it to communicate it. That’s simply what it is," Hutto says.

"There are gonna be a lot of people who don't like what you’re doing," Logan says.

"By volunteering we've done more than about 99 percent of the population. And anybody who joined after 9/11 when the country was at a state of war, it's my opinion that nobody has the right to question that soldier's patriotism, nobody," Cantu replies.

"There are going to be a lot of people listening to this who say that, 'You're a traitor. You're betraying your uniform. You don't deserve to wear it,'" says Logan.

"I hope there aren't people that think that," says Lt. Commander Mark Dearden.

For him, going public has been one of the hardest decisions of his life. He’s a combat surgeon who served during Operation Iraqi Freedom, returned for a second tour and now treats soldiers at a Naval hospital in California.

"The decision to come here for me personally was not an easy one. And I don't expect it was for anyone. Last night I was with my family in the park in our town and it hit me that 'At this very moment, while I'm standing here, people are fighting and people are dying.' I've seen it with my own eyes. And I can feel it in my chest," Dearden says.

Dearden acknowledges this is very hard for him and he also admits that it isn't so much a protest as a plea.

According to a recent Military Times survey, many in uniform feel the same way. The poll found that for the first time ever more US soldiers oppose the president’s handling of the war in Iraq than support it.

Still, critics claim the group is partisan, just out to boost Democrats who oppose the war.

"I'm certainly not liberal, and I doubt many of the members on this panel are liberal. It's not funded by any partisan organization. It's soldiers. It's service members. It's grass roots. It's us," says Lt. Kent Gneiting.

White House spokesman Tony Snow has dismissed the protesters as an insignificant minority. "It’s not unusual for soldiers in a time of war to have some misgivings. You have several hundred thousand who served in Iraq. You have reenlistment rates that have exceeded goals in all the military," he said.

Logan read to the group: "And then he goes on to say that it's unfortunate that people like you – and the quote is – are 'going to be able to get more press than the hundreds of thousands who have come back and said they are proud of their service.'"

Sgt. Cantu responds, "You got two right here who are gonna do multiple tours in Iraq and, you know, I'm reenlisting. I never said I wasn't proud of my service. I fit some of those statistics right there myself."

(CBS) For many in uniform, there’s an unwritten code of honor that says no matter how tough your situation is or whatever your private doubts about the mission may be, you just never speak out publicly against it, and so for them what the service members of this campaign are doing is nothing short of a betrayal.

"That’s not something I would do personally," a specialist remarks.

Logan spoke with soldiers from the 1st Cavalry who are currently serving in Baghdad. They acknowledged that the servicemen and women who signed the petition have the right to do so – but that doesn’t mean they should.

"I think every American soldier throughout history has wanted combat to stop," a major remarked.

"As an American soldier I feel like we took an oath to obey the orders of our Commander in Chief and officers appointed over us," Army Spec. James Smauldon adds.

"The war has been very difficult, the violence has not decreased at all, if anything it has gotten worse. Is there a part of you that sort of says, 'Yeah I understand why someone feels like this?'" Logan asks.

"I know what I’m here fighting for, to give the Iraqi people some democracy and hope so I am 100 percent behind this mission. You don’t sign up to pick which war you go to," Army Capt. Lawrence Nunn replies.

What would Ronn Cantu say to that?

"We haven't said that we're not going to war. But the time this airs I'll be back in Iraq," he replies.

"We don't get to choose the mission. Our leadership gets to choose the mission. Congress gets to choose the mission. My Congressman is Lacy Clay. I would like to tell him as a constituent of his, "Is this really – is this it?" Staff Sgt. Matt Nuckolls says.

"What do you mean, is this it?" Logan asks.

Says Nuckolls, "Is the mission in Iraq really what you want us to be doing? And then he responds, yes. Okay, well we go back to Iraq and keep doing what we're doing."

"We volunteer to make a difference, not just throw our lives away," Cantu adds.

Sgt. Ronn Cantu served in the army before 9/11 and re-enlisted after the terrorist attacks. He was in Iraq in 2004 and was headed back when 60 Minutes interviewed him. Although he says he will follow whatever orders he’s given, he personally feels this war is no longer worth fighting.

He is a third generation military man in his family. "The third generation to have served, the first who made the decision to make the military a career," he explains.

Asked if he thinks the petition could be career suicide, Cantu says, "Only time will tell."

"You're going back. Are you worried about what the consequences are going to be for you back there, when people know how you feel?" Logan asks.

"All I can do is just convey to those soldiers that I do not want them to die in Iraq and that I will do everything I can do bring them home safe," Cantu says.

"Once you're in that combat zone and once those bullets start flying it's, all those politics are out the window. It's not about foreign policy or what anybody says. It's about the man to your left and to your right. And now you're just out there defending each other," Kevin Torres says. "Nothing will ever change that."

Despite the fact that polls show the majority of the American public has turned against the war in Iraq, support for the troops remains high, even for soldiers like Specialist Torres, whose 101st Airborne was recently welcomed home with a parade near their home base at Ft. Campbell.

What did that mean to him when he returned home and saw the warm welcome?

"When you're in Iraq you're worried that you're sort of forgotten. The only people that are really concerned with the war in Iraq are people who have family members or loved ones in Iraq. And when you come home and you see a town welcome you and, you know, set up a parade it's comforting," he says.

"What would you say to your children 30 years from now about the war you fought?" Logan asks.

"That I was just doing what my country asked me to do and I did it well," Torres replies.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/22/60minutes/main2505412.shtml

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Newflake

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posted March 20, 2008 10:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!?!?!


Who's really paying the price for this war?

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jwhop
Knowflake

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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 20, 2008 11:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another lying press report. Americans have not turned against the war in Iraq. In fact, Americans have just turned positive about the war in 2008 when they were negative last year.

Now HSC, how many US military personnel are we talking about here...those who wish to petition to end the war? It's usually one or two which causes the hard core leftist groups to achieve escape velocity. I distrust the press above all and anything coming out of CBS is automatically suspect...given their record of lying through their teeth. They all seem to have Dan Rather disease.

Just for the record HSC, what's the source of these pictures...and how strong is your belief system they have anything what so ever to do with US military forces? You see HSC, I've seen pictures before and when they're run down it's found they have nothing to do with the subject being discussed or...those pictured were killed or injured by terrorists and not the US military. Your caption is very disgusting HSC...just so you know. In fact, I don't believe a word I hear or read coming out of antiwar activist groups. Groups like Indymedia...the source of your pictures.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Newflake

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posted March 20, 2008 11:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
jwhop,

Just so you know,
I never read what you write.

"The eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to learn from the crow."
~ Native American Proverb

But there are plenty here still listening to your bull,
happy to waste their time and energy debating people like yourself,
instead of doing something worthwhile;
folks who just love to hate you.
So, please, dont go wasting your breath on my account.
Go! Find your audience!

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 20, 2008 11:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Exactly jwhop.. Another BS report.. they have 1000 out of how many AD and reserve / NG components? Infact, I know that there are those that are protesting as "veterans" that have never served in ANY war.

This is more of HSC's diatribe to get more attention. LOL.... Ironically, he would be the last person to give his life for something highter than just getting attention. Then again, he has threatened this site more than a few times with his own demise (again for attention) if only he could put his death wish for GOOD and not just selfish intentions... Hmmm.. guess that AIN'T gonna happen LOL...


HUGS Jhwop

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Newflake

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posted March 20, 2008 11:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
LOL, pidaua, you are a character.

You never disappoint.

God Bless!


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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 21, 2008 12:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
jwhop,
Just so you know,
I never read what you write....HSC

You're kidding right HSC? If you never read what I write how do you know I wasn't agreeing with you and heaping praise on your head?

Do you actually consider protesting to be doing something useful? How about wearing ribbons and buttons to express your support fot this or that. Is that doing something useful.

Let me tell what doing something useful really means. It means rolling up your sleeves and doing what's necessary to effect real change.

Doing something to free 50,000,000 people from the grip of ruthless and murderous tyrants...as US military forces have done, while bearing the hardships and ducking terrorist bullets while whiners back home second guess your every action. That's doing something useful and the world is a better and safer place because they did that and still are.

I regret you feel the need to off yourself to escape this den of warmongering vipers HSC. On the other hand HSC, if you're only threating to off yourself to gain attention, don't be too surprised if some cheer you on. I've read stories about onlookers encouraging people poised on the roof of high rise building to jump....jump... jump.

Bear the Leo is a lucky guy Pid. You could tell him I said so but I'm sure he already knows that. Call it Leo luck.

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venusdeindia
unregistered
posted March 21, 2008 02:37 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
HSC .. can we get some more spice in here ... any more facts i mean, see i am addicted to the antics of our Discussion Derailing Drill Seargents.. God Bless Them.
in these times of sin, u cant count on ur family to stand by you, but u sure as heck can count on the Drill Sergents to react to anything of substance... with th ususl Derailing tactics... that is.....

Eight Traits of the Disinformationalist

by H. Michael Sweeney ..God Bless Mirandee


--------------------------------------------
1) Avoidance. They never actually discuss issues head-on or provide constructive input, generally avoiding citation of references or credentials. Rather, they merely imply this, that, and the other. Virtually everything about their presentation implies their authority and expert knowledge in the matter without any further justification for credibility.

2) Selectivity. They tend to pick and choose opponents carefully, either applying the hit-and-run approach against mere commentators supportive of opponents, or focusing heavier attacks on key opponents who are known to directly address issues. Should a commentatorbecome argumentative with any success, the focus will shift to include the commentator as well.

3) Coincidental. They tend to surface suddenly and somewhat coincidentally with a new controversial topic with no clear prior record of participation in general discussions in the particular public arena involved. They likewise tend to vanish once the topic is no longer of general concern. They were likely directed or elected to be there for a reason, and vanish with the reason.

4) Teamwork. They tend to operate in self-congratulatory and complementary packs or teams. Of course, this can happen naturally in any public forum, but there will likely be an ongoing pattern of frequent exchanges of this sort where professionals are involved. Sometimes one of the players will infiltrate the opponent camp to become a source for straw man or other tactics designed to dilute opponent presentation strength.

5) Anti-conspiratorial. They almost always have disdain for 'conspiracy theorists' and, usually, for those who in any way believe JFK was not killed by LHO. Ask yourself why, if they hold such disdain for conspiracy theorists, do they focus on defending a single topic discussed in a NG focusing on conspiracies? One might think they would either be trying to make fools of everyone on every topic, or simply ignore the group they hold in such disdain.Or, one might more rightly conclude they have an ulterior motive for their actions in going out of their way to focus as they do.

6) Artificial Emotions. An odd kind of 'artificial' emotionalism and an unusually thick skin -- an ability to persevere and persist even in the face of overwhelming criticism and unacceptance. This likely stems from intelligence community training that, no matter how condemning the evidence, deny everything, and never become emotionally involved or reactive. The net result for a disinfo artist is that emotions can seem artificial. Most people, if responding in anger, for instance, will express their animosity throughout their rebuttal. But disinfo types usually have trouble maintaining the 'image' and are hot and cold with respect to pretended emotions and their usually more calm or unemotional communications style. It's just a job, and they often seem unable to 'act their role in character' as well in a communications medium as they might be able in a real face-to-face conversation/confrontation. You might have outright rage and indignation one moment, ho-hum the next, and more anger later -- an emotional yo-yo. With respect to being thick-skinned, no amount of criticism will deter them from doing their job, and they will generally continue their old disinfo patterns without any adjustments to criticisms of how obvious it is that they play that game -- where a more rational individual who truly cares what others think might seek to improve their communications style, substance, and so forth, or simply give up.

7) Inconsistent. There is also a tendency to make mistakes which betray their true self/motives. This may stem from not really knowing their topic, or it may be somewhat 'freudian', so to speak, in that perhaps they really root for the side of truth deep within.

I have noted that often, they will simply cite contradictory information which neutralizes itself and the author. For instance, one such player claimed to be a Navy pilot, but blamed his poor communicating skills (spelling, grammar, incoherent style) on having only a grade-school education. I'm not aware of too many Navy pilots who don't have a college degree. Another claimed no knowledge of a particular topic/situation but later claimed first-hand knowledge of it.

8) BONUS TRAIT: Time Constant. Recently discovered, with respect to News Groups, is the response time factor. There are three ways this can be seen to work, especially when the government or other empowered player is involved in a cover up operation:


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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 21, 2008 01:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
March 13, 2008
Summer Soldiers by Any Other Name
By Kyle-Anne Shiver

"These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of his country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman."
Thomas Paine, writing in 1776

The so-called Winter Soldier testimonies of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans start today in Washington, D.C. No one knows how many former soldiers will show up, what they will actually say, or even more than a few names of those slated to appear. These men and women are attempting to re-create the Winter Soldier allegations made in 1971 by a group of dissident Vietnam Vets, of whom John Kerry was a prominent member.

While we don't yet know a whole lot about the current crop of dissidents or their possible connections with our enemies, we now know a great deal about the original Winter Soldiers, who were the first Americans to try this aid-and-abet-the-enemy scheme on such a large scale, with a collective organization in a public forum.

We know from resulting investigations of the Winter Soldiers' allegations, FBI reports and independent research that a large number of those who publicly spoke in 1971, were phonies and liars, while some were merely repeating rumors, hearsay or stories spun for them by behind-the-scenes prompters. Many of the original Winter Soldiers never even served in Vietnam. Some of those claiming to have been wounded in the war were found later to have had sports injuries from civilian life, not war wounds.

Telling tall tales of atrocity after atrocity, war crime after war crime, these dissident vets framed the entire American army and their commanders as the outright enemies of every standard of decency. They freely slandered 2 ½ million United States soldiers as rampaging barbarians without a shred of conscience, even admitting to some war crimes themselves, on the grounds that they were mentally impaired by the horrors of war.

These little turn-on-your-friends-for-personal-gain gambits are just about as old as human nature itself, and seem to crop up in every place and era, especially in wartime.

And the lengths to which people will go to justify, rationalize and otherwise alter the perception of their less than noble deeds is equally infinite.

Hence, the name Winter Soldiers.

A guileful attempt, in my opinion, to alter public perception with a clever name.

What's in a name?

Actually, not much, as Shakespeare so eloquently noted.

The original Winter Soldiers adopted their name, they said, to demonstrate that they were the opposites of Thomas Paine's "summer soldiers" and "sunshine patriots," the kind of Americans that refused to fight for their liberties. More than likely, however, they called themselves the Winter Soldiers as a shrewdly calculated move designed to preempt their denunciation by the populace as shameful traitors to America's war efforts.

So, were the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, aka Winter Soldiers, genuinely trying to help America as true heroes willing to "speak truth to power"?

Or, were they merely the useful idiots doing some of the dirty work for America's enemies, the North Vietnamese communists and the Viet Cong?

Meetings in Paris with the Enemy

Recently unearthed, official documents reveal that the anti-Vietnam-war movement, of which the Winter Soldiers were a part, was not really the loosely connected, independently motivated concoction of various like-minded Americans in the way that the groups themselves painted it.

Instead, these documents, which were taken from the communists themselves, indicate that there was a cohesion of purpose dictated by our own enemies in Vietnam, and that the Winter Soldier allegations were just part and parcel of that larger scheme.

Several Winter Soldiers made trips to Paris from 1970 to 1972, specifically to meet with Madame Bingh, a formal representative of the South Vietnamese communists (Viet Cong). These Vietnam Veterans Against the War, of whom John Kerry was one, were given copies of the communists' 7-point plan for peace, and soon after began mimicking the same terminology in their "peace" demonstrations.

Among other points, the plan specifically demanded:

A firm date for withdrawal of all United States forces and weaponry.

Monetary reparations for the damage caused by America's war on Vietnam.

If all conditions were met posthaste, then the communists honorably promised that perfect peace and harmony among all would promptly ensue.

Left unstated was the last line of this fairytale, "And they all lived happily ever after."

Of course, these loving, peaceful, harmonious communists were not quite true to their words. As soon as our Democrat-controlled Congress cut off the funding that was to ensure and protect the hard-won peace, the North Vietnamese invaded South Vietnam, and with the assistance of the Viet Cong, conducted a brutal genocide that resulted in more than a million atrocious murders. Millions more were sent to re-education camps to be brainwashed in communist groupthink.

Isn't it a wonder that so many bright, young, well-educated Americans of the anti-war left, bought the whole communist line without even having to be forcefully re-educated?

Are the VVAW and the IVAW two peas in the same plot?

Here we are 37 years after the first Winter Soldier shenanigans, witnessing a reincarnation of seemingly the same old tactics.

Malcontented veterans. Backed up by anti-recruitment activities. Stories of atrocities that turn out not to be.

And eerily similar demands:

A specific date for withdrawal of troops.

Close Guantanamo and stop "cruel" and "inhumane" treatment of detainees.

Garner world opinion on the enemy's side.

Cut off the funding for the war.

Impeach the President.

For several years now, the anti-war left has put up a concerted effort to convince the American public that Iraq was just another Vietnam. They've called it a quagmire. Unwinnable. A political war. A civil war that we caused.

The anti-Iraq war factions have called our President a war criminal. They have called our honorable soldiers cold-blooded murderers. And they have called the insurgent enemies "freedom fighters."

And all this time, I have felt the queasy déjà vu that has at times hurled me back in time to the days in America when communist propaganda won over common sense and sound reason.

In the Vietnam era, we took the propagandists at their word.

So, will I put a lot of stock in whatever these new Iraq Winter Soldiers say in Washington this week?

No.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...not likely.

2008 is not 1971

In 1971, both the citizenry and our government were taken off guard by these men, posturing themselves as the victims of an indefensible war. We took them mostly at their words.

Even though investigations did shortly reveal that most refused to give depositions under oath, could provide no verifiable details of the allegations they had made or any corroboration whatsoever, they fooled enough people in the Congress and the public to succeed in their efforts to stop the war and deliver victory to our enemies.

This time, however, the Winter Soldiers will be met with a good number of American citizens who are older and wiser and will make them accountable for their words and their actions.

Many pro-troop citizens groups will be in Washington to meet the Iraq veterans that are part of the Winter Soldier conclave.

A few of those who will be in Washington this week to confront the Iraq Veterans Against the War are Eagles Up, Gathering of Eagles and Move America Forward. I'm certain there will be many others. This time we have Americans who will stand up for America.

When I spoke with retired Army Colonel, Harry Wiley, of Eagles Up, he told me that he had previously heard Iraq veterans speak out against the war, and that for the most part, these were young people saying in effect that they "had not liked seeing the impact of war."

"Well, none of us do," he told me. "But that's part of war, always has been."

Colonel Riley should know about war. He served in the army from 1956 - 1992, fought in Vietnam and has seen more than his share of the ugliness of war.

When I asked Colonel Riley how a good soldier maintains his civility in the face of enemy barbarism, he gave the answer that I have heard again and again from veterans, especially of the Vietnam and Iraq wars.

"A man falls back on his own moral code, knowing that all human life is important and worthy of protecting. When a soldier kills, he doesn't do it because he wants to; he does it because he has to. It's kill or be killed."

Americans will have a choice in Washington this week.

Our Congress has already shown a willingness to be taken in by the kind of allegations these Winter Soldiers may be making. In 1971, the VVAW members were taken at their words, only to be found out much later after grievous harm had been done to our Nation and to the reputations of 2 ½ million American soldiers.

In my opinion, uncorroborated statements, not even rendered under oath, ought not be given much weight. According to the U.S. Constitution, every accused has the right to face his accuser and the right to view the evidence against him.

I have a real hunch that these vets calling themselves "Winter Soldiers" are just ole' fashioned summer soldiers up to the same tomfoolery as their namesakes.

One can only hope that we are too wise to be fooled twice.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/03/summer_soldiers_by_any_other_n.html

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Newflake

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posted March 21, 2008 08:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Forgive them, for they know not what they do."
~ Jesus of Nazareth

For the record, I do not intend any of my small scale protests as personal attacks on the unsuspecting soldiers, or even on the corrupt fools who lead them by the nose. Everyone is operating at their own level of evolution, and nobody can be blamed for that. Nevertheless, there are realities which we all (especially the people directly involved in this debacle) need to wake up to, and come to terms with. I will not parse words about that, and if I think shock value has the potential to wake people up, I'll employ it. After all, I'm Uranian, and its no coincidence that the planet which rules brotherhood, progress, and awakening, is also known to act suddenly, and in a manner that frequently disrupts the status quo and upsets people. I happen to think it is worth it.

All lives are valuable, including the lives of the soldiers, and the civilian children, and others, who have alll payed an incredible cost for this worthless war. Of course, my hope for people like Pidaua and Bear, is not that they should merely be offended or disturbed by antics like my own, but, that they might eventually awaken to the reality of their own complicity and cooperation with the unspeakable crimes still going on in Iraq and elsewhere. My efforts are just a drop in the Gulf, so to speak, but it is my belief that provocations like this may have, at least, some subliminal effect, and, eventually, it is hoped, something more conscious.


"At last, the moment arrived when the effort to remain in the bud was greater than the effort it took to blossom."
~ Anais Nin

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ListensToTrees
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posted March 21, 2008 08:15 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Not killing is so basic, it shouldn't even need to be mentioned. If you have formerly killed "in the line of duty", with the mistaken notion of "patriotism", forgive yourself and cleanse yourself. There's never a real reason for killing anything or anybody. There is always a way to solve a "dangerous", existential situation where your murder or another person's murder is threatened, without killing the aggressor. There is always a way to prevent the death of one person without killing another. Wounding an arm, hand, foot or leg is not desirable, but is better than killing".

~Linda Goodman



------------------
"To err is human, to forgive divine"
~Alexander Pope

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ListensToTrees
unregistered
posted March 21, 2008 08:28 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For love's sake, wake up people!

We are all the same in soul, we all bleed the same, feel pain the same, desire to be loved the same no matter who we are, where we've come from or what we have done.

Every life is sacred and should be cherished and protected at every endeavor!

Two wrongs do not make a right- it just leads to a never ending cycle of suffering.

Both governments have been in the wrong and made some mistakes.
Every soldier- whether Iraqi or American- are just trying to do their job. None of them are "evil". Every soldier is a mother's child, someone's sibling, someone's spouse, someone's parent......so for goodness sake can't we learn to just live and let live?

We don't need to be the pawns and puppets of authority figures any longer.

Psychologists have proven that people who are more able to think for themselves are less likely to be led by corrupt dictators.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Newflake

Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Nov 2010

posted March 22, 2008 11:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Great quote from Linda Goodman there, LTT.

She was right about some things, eh?

I hope Randall sees it.

Maybe I'll put it on my signature, lol.


quote:
Psychologists have proven that people who are more able to think for themselves are less likely to be led by corrupt dictators.

Right on!

True dat!


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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 29, 2008 12:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh.. and LOOK.. the attentions seeking "suicide watch" scorp is still trying to plea some kind of washed up case against the war.. a case that HE has NO stake in.. a CASE where HE would never give up his life (for any side) to prove a point.. BUT.. the man.. when on enough "happy drugs" threatens us that HE will say goodbye (completely) unless everyone BOWS down to his need.

OMG....

How can YOU HSC.. talk about the demise of ANYONE when you only give your pathetic life when you think YOU are not getting the attention you crave?

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Mannu
Knowflake

Posts: 45
From: always here and no where
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 29, 2008 01:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mannu     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh Pidaua,

Your major fear is if there is no more war, what will army do? What will your man do? Will he get another job?

If Jesus comes in flesh, the pastors will be out of job


If nations do not fight with each other then who will need an army to defend themselves?


Why can't you see these leaders do not want peace? Especially America. The army had a sagging morale because nothing was going on much for a long time before 9/11. And America is making money selling F16s and guns worldwide. It creates Osama and destroys him. It encouraged Saddam and turned against him. Why are you so blind?

You are a human being too. Aren't you?

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venusdeindia
unregistered
posted March 29, 2008 10:53 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
and.... there it is .... the spice my humdrum life is lacking

great one that....when out of anything sensible to say , trash the person u cant win over with your arguments.
wait a minute, that IS on the Disinformation tactics list i just posted


CAN ANYONE BE SO DUMB......

Some Army Wife Diatribe THAT... talk about DAMAGED ........LMAO

HSC........ if u still remember the er.. crap i dished in that Angelina thread , i apologise profusely. GU has really made me grow up.and for the record, i love ur perspectives.

Keep up the good work

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MysticMelody
Moderator

Posts: 1066
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 29, 2008 05:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MysticMelody     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hmmmm... so if we are all our own "country" and we don't like what the country of Pid and her ally countries are doing... hmmmm...
We think they are attacking and aggressing against our own, and other of our ally countries, right? We don't like their policies, philosophies, and beliefs. What should we do?

ATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTAAAAAAAAAAAAAACKKKKKKKKKKK!!!

right?

put her in the ground!

Forcefully turn her and her allies around to our way of thinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Make her suffer so she can see her EVIL WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

Yeah, this is all so helpful and we are all so above this behavior that obviously we should expect countries to be above it as well. And if not, why we'll war about it with each other every chance we get.

Quit attacking Pid. She's under constant stress and worry. And I would guess in a great deal of pain. And for some reason, I'm thinking she thinks about these issues a lot (ya think?!) because she seems a lot more knowledgeable about this topic than say, day time soap operas, for example. Gently sharing some information might help all of us refine our opinions but abusing each other is a little contrary to the whole "people shouldn't war with each" other idea.

Pid, please don't attack Steve, he is a man I love and pray is safe from harm. I know you understand.

Everybody else, yeah, it gets heated. Oh well, tomorrow is another day to do things differently.

Oooh--
I can see that you've got fire in your eyes
And pain inside your heart
So many things have come and torn your world apart
Oh baby, baby, baby, don't give up, don't give up
don't give up
If you want love
If you want love, you've got to give a little
If you want love
If you want faith, you just believe a little
If you want love
If you want peace, turn your cheek a little
Ohhh, you've got to give
You've got to give
You've got to give.....to live
An empty hand reaching out for someone
An empty heart takes so little to fill
It's so much easier to push instead of pull
Oh baby, baby, baby
Don't give up, don't give up, don't give up
If you want love
If you want love, you've got to give a little
If you want love
If you want faith, you just believe a little
If you want love
If you want peace, turn your cheek a little
Ohhh, you've got to give
You've got to give
You've got to give....to live

Each man's a country in his own right
Oh, every body needs a friend
One friend, one God, one country
No man need defend
I believe in fate and destination
But so much of that lies in our own hands

If you know what you want, just go on out and get it
Oh baby, baby
Don't give up, don't give up
Yeah, yeah
If you want love

If you want love, you've got to give a little
If you want love
If you want faith, you just believe a little
If you want love
If you want peace, turn your cheek a little
You want love
You've got to give
If you want love
Give to live
You've got to give to live
Give to live
Give to live
If you want love
If you want love
If you want love
You've got to give
You've got to give
You've got to give
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_Ah1WUBmgA

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MysticMelody
Moderator

Posts: 1066
From:
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 29, 2008 05:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MysticMelody     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"What happens when we are delving deep into the nature of our consciousness, while our collective subconscious erupts with rage and violence in the Middle East?

I felt myself asking, "Is it realistic to hope for a new humanity?" As I look at the faces of people yearning for true peace (not just the absence of war) and feel their presence, any sense of helplessness diminishes, because I am looking at the seeds of the new humanity.

These are caring, compassionate, loving, people engaged in personal transformation. There are many all over the world, if only they could be connected. If only we could reach critical mass as soon as humanly possible.

But the immediate question for everyone of us is "What can I do now?"

I would like to share my reflections with all of you in this time of war. These are not original insights. They have been part of wisdom traditions for a long, long time. I deeply honor the sentiments of those of you who favor social activism, but that approach has been tried over and over again without great success. I believe at the core of my being that only a consciousness-based approach will work.

Societies get into the grip of their own self-created story.

It's helpful to realize that we can choose not to participate in that story. Realize that national and tribal stories are limited, self-serving, based on the past, reinforced by orthodoxy, and therefore opposed to real change. Stories are incredibly persuasive. Wars are fueled by victimization that runs deep, for example. So let us not try to change anyone's story. Let us only notice and observe ourselves when we buy into it and then let us back away from participating in it.

Let us not demand of ourselves that we alone must be the agent of change. In a fire brigade everyone passes along a bucket, but only the last person puts out the fire. None of us know where we stand in line. We may be here simply to pass a bucket; we may be called on to play a major role. In either case, all we can do is think, act, and say. Let us direct our thoughts, words, and actions to peace. That is all we can do. Let the results be what they will be.

Let us realize that engagement and detachment aren't opposite -- the more engaged we become, the more detached we will have to be. Otherwise, we will lose ourselves in conflict, obsessiveness, anxiety over the future, and feelings of guilt and inadequacy. Keep in mind that we are pioneers into the unknown, and uncertainty is our ally. When our minds want closure, certainty, and finality, let us remind ourselves that these are fictions. Our joyous moments will come from riding the wave, not asking to get off at the next station.

Most misery is born of failed expectations so let us learn to minimize expectations so that we will feel far less guilt and disappointment. We aren't here to be good or perfect. We are here as the antennas for signals from the future. We are here to be midwives to something that wants to be born. Good people have preceded us. They solved some problems and created others. As one wise teacher said, "You aren't here to be as good as possible. You are here to be as real as possible."

I know this sounds difficult, but let us try to be tolerant of intolerance. This is a hard one at times, but if you try the opposite -- showing a hard heart against those with hard hearts of their own -- all we've done is expand the problem. It's helpful (but often difficult) to remember that everyone is doing the best they can from their own level of consciousness. Trying to talk a terrorist out of his beliefs is like trying to persuade a lion to be a vegetarian. All we can realistically do is seek openings for higher awareness.

Let us resist the lure of dualities.

These include us versus them, civilized versus barbarians, good versus evil. The good, civilized people of Europe managed to kill millions of themselves, along with millions of "them." In reality we are all in the same boat of human conflict and confusion. Sometimes it helps to admit that the doctor is not far from being a patient.

Let's create an atmosphere of peace around ourselves. Imagine that we are like a mother whose children come home crying about fights at school. Would it be her job to soothe their wounds or to arm them for fighting back tomorrow? Simplistic as it may sound, the male principle of aggression can only be healed by the feminine principle of nurturing and love.

Mahatma Gandhi spoke the truth when he said "You must be the change you want to see in the world." We are units of consciousness, and the world is our projection. If there are enough units of peace consciousness and they connected with each other to reach critical mass, we could heal the world by healing ourselves.

A conscious change of heart is one of the most concrete things the world can ever see, a change of heart can change the world, whereas dutiful combative stances can only increase our agonies.

While caught up in a conflictive situation keep out there in the midst of it all doing what you do best:

Do not be discouraged, but know that there are people all over the world who support you, one day there will be so many that everyone will see peace.

Love is the only point of departure for intelligent action.


Reactionary activism based on blame and self-righteousness leads us to perpetual strife, as we accumulate vengeful and judgmental postures.

There is war and suffering in life, it has always been there, now in the present news from the Middle East, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Guatemala, Congo, Somalia, etc. But it is really everywhere, as we have forgotten who we really are, and have failed to exercise the charity of forgiveness of ourselves and others.

How can we overcome this strife? -By overcoming hatred-. How can we overcome hatred? -By releasing love-. How can we release love? -By growing in consciousness, which means consideration, forgiveness, understanding, -an awareness of our common being. And this applies to collective, social, family, and individual conflicts.

Lets not become impatient for concrete solutions alone.

As we engage in dialogue among ourselves to find the solutions to our immediate problems, some of us with warplanes and missiles flying overhead, we become truly desperate for concrete strategies, and concrete results.

But let's ask ourselves: did millions marching for peace across America and Europe before the Iraq war prevent it? Did the peace treaties negotiated by President Clinton between the Palestinians and Israelis achieve anything? Has all the negotiation and conflict resolution by responsible, intelligent, sincere diplomats affected the estimated 35 wars that are now going on simultaneously in the world? Has all the moral outrage prevented the ethnic cleansing and genocide in Sudan, Ethiopia, or Gujarat? Has the hundreds of billions of dollars of aid to developing nations overcome poverty?

We cannot simply pursue without reflection the same thing that didn't work

Maybe personal transformation (including the longing for personal transformation) can contribute towards a lasting and radical solution. Why don't we give peace a chance by engaging in something seemingly not so "concrete" like participating in the creation of peace consciousness?

We can and must do whatever is in our reach to put out the fires. Yes, let us bring the buckets of water and dig the trenches to contain the forest fires we have started, but if we do not stop smoking, we would not have addressed the root cause that gives continuous rise to the fire. So although we must raise our voices and coordinate our actions as our hearts demand to counteract conflagrations like the one in the Middle East and Iraq and put pressure on our leaders to act fast to bring peace, we must not diminish our first order of sustained priority, that of addressing the root cause of all our social and individual hassle and pain - our ignorance and the healing our own selfishness.

And this quest applies to all, the so called spiritual leaders, the seekers, the social workers, activists and everyone, for all, no matter what role we play, we all are longing for love and peace, for greater understanding.

Peace can only be created by those who are peaceful.

I cannot honesty claim that I have achieved peace of mind, but because I am at least trying to go beyond my personal melodrama, it is my hope that I may be capable of seeing things in perspective. I think longing for peace may itself be the beginning to bring about a new birth of awareness.

To be part of the gestation process is just as necessary as any other stage. As Rumi said in one of his poems, "Our longing and our helplessness are the way".

Let's meet as people who have nothing in common except our helplessness and our own peace of mind.

It's worth celebrating that we are not emotionally drawn into the concept of war as a "solution" when the rest of the world is. Maybe it is worthwhile to invite the world into a new era -- showing humanity the face of peace.

I have no doubt that millions will watch us and say, "That's me, too."

I do not want to convey a sense of pacifism.

Consciousness isn't passive. In itself it's always moving, changing, creating and affecting change. Activism that works for change on the surface often winds up being just a counterforce -- it's the opposite side of a tug of war.

The situation in the Middle East right now, for example is rife with action. It's rife with opposition. Is there a choice that didn't involve increasing tension? Of course, we all support humanitarian relief, peace negotiations, etc. this world has always been full of good, well-intentioned people who devote themselves to social change. And for many, this work is their personal path of evolution.

Yet the world remains a sinkhole of poverty, famine, war, crime, and despair. Goodness hasn't changed the situation; activism has ameliorated it, at best.

When doing more of the same thing doesn't work, I think it's time to consider the deeper wound, which is at the level of consciousness.

There is action to be taken in consciousness, even though it may be subtle action.

Love, Deepak"
http://www.mwblog.com/journal/archives/2006/07/on_consciousnes.php
from Marianne Williamson's blog


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