posted February 04, 2009 06:01 PM            

many are moaning and groaning about the economy and fearing "the worst", but i cannot shake the feeling that this is a golden opportunity for everyone. generosity at this time helps the poorest but also sets in motion a return to the givers...this is perhaps the best time to practice the "money mystique" in a big way.

posted February 04, 2009 07:05 PM            

In some cases, it generates good karma, as I found recently.

posted February 05, 2009 04:00 AM              

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posted February 05, 2009 07:25 AM              

i love this thread

posted February 05, 2009 01:25 PM            

my idea was not necessarily to give handouts. those, i believe, should be anonymous or impulse-driven (you see someone on the street, you give money, act complete). there is no bad karma in sharing with those around you. there is no bad karma in denny's giving free breakfasts the other day.

i think it is time we all realized that the homeless are people too. to me they are a 3-D reminder of how much i have, and believe me by most people's standards i have ZIP! i don't know about you but i know lots of people who are grateful for the help they got when they were in a dark tunnel and unable to take care of themselves. that doesn't mean they are still looking for handouts!

but my original idea was that we should not be listening to the doom and gloom mongers. depression or no depression, we have each other, we have ideas and resources, and this is a golden opportunity to get back to basics and our own communities, to trim our excesses so that we can have prosperity without greed. we in america would not be here if the indians had not shared with the pilgrims, AND VICE VERSA. most of the people who forged this country did it with no help from the government.

i don't want to say we treated the natives right, we didn't but that was largely a government crime. the individuals who settled this country largely worked alongside the natives and only got involved in fighting in self-defense. but the native issue is not what i'm talking about.

money is an artificial construct, never more so than today. you have none? what can you do for your neighbour? that is what business is at the bottom line.

posted February 05, 2009 10:43 PM            

If you're interested, then the short and sweet of it is that people began to take advantage of me, and not just the homeless. As for the homeless themselves, they apparently shared info and I got the rep as a soft spot and would actually call me over to them while I was loaded down with groceries (and I'd go because I thought maybe they needed help) just to beg money from me! (And no offers to carry my bags for me, for which I'd have paid well if they had, especially if they didn't ask for anything in return.) The worst one was when I gave a dollar to a homeless guy who then looked at me like I was the biggest jerk ever and said, "I was hoping for a five." When I made it clear he wasn't getting a five, he then got threatening.

People who give can also be chosen as victims, too, including for rape, robbery, and murder. Back when I was a homeless runaway, I've overheard thugs bragging about singling such people out, as well as seeing a couple of dogooders turned victim. People who do good deeds are sometimes victims of cons and swindles, too.

I'll still give to street performers and the like, but not panhandlers, as I've learned my lesson. I'll give food, but I found many panhandlers aren't interested in that, even when they lie about having not eaten for days (I know it's a lie because I've been there and know very well I'd have accepted the food, with gratitude). 'Course the food banks and like around these parts makes it so that hunger is optional for anyone of legal age (generally speaking, only runaways have need to fear accessing this food--and they have other ways of getting food, which I try to make easier for them). Luckily, I haven't been attacked for giving food but not money, as a friend of mine was.

But as for working around governments, I pretty much do that already. In just one way, I put out a lot of effort to avoid anything I'd even pay sales tax on, instead going to thrift shops, discount stores, flea markets, garage sales, and the like (I tend to make my living through these places, too). I also avoid the consumerist lifestyle. Some say I'm poor, but I don't, because while I make little, I also have a low overhead without the needs of dealing with a stressful job.

As for caring for community, I do that far more than most around here. I once anonymously delivered paper products and cat food & litter to a neighbor on welfare and just run out of unemployment. But she knew it was me because "who else would do that [at least anonymously, no strings attached]?" Though that was an example of getting good karma because she ended up getting an assistant manager job at a health food store (one of the few places I shop at regularly that has sale taxes) and ended up getting me my favorite drink there with an employee's discount (though the prices for those drinks have gotten so high that I've had to swear off of them anyway).

I also have a plan of creating an "alternative community," the details of which are too long to go into here, but it's a defiance of needing to be a wage slave to get by. I'm even thinking of looking into starting that in the near future given the low real estate prices and the fact I have to move in the near future anyway.

posted February 06, 2009 09:00 AM            

giving is a kind act provided you don't over calculate.

the Koran unfortunately overstretched this principle by saying don't give interest when you lend. Mohammed is a poor economist. The world runs on interest. Without it there is no incentives for banks to loan to customers. Moses and Mohammed are great but poor with their ideas on how to change the world . Sorry Lara or Quinnie or whoever reading this having similar ideas.

posted February 06, 2009 12:34 PM            

i think mannu's point about attachment may have something to do with it, or it may be a belief you need to work on in yourself about being taken for a ride...

as for living outside the establishment, yes - that is what i am talking about - it has been the only way to go for me for decades now. sometimes i have money, others i don't but i have always had enough

mannu - worked for some time for an arab lawyer when i was in britain. i came across the no-interest thing through him, also the barter ethic which is still in full force among arabs rich and poor. i must qualify that there were only a handful of muslims amongst the arabs i knew but they adhered to these traditions amongst themselves.

personally my understanding of arab monetary law is that though interest is forbidden profit is not, so lenders make a deal with the borrower for a portion of the profits...so the economy could run just fine without interest. my boss's office and home (both in very high priced neighbourhoods) were on permanent loan from his primary client, a sheikh with more money than croesus , but generous with it. his older brother, same money, was relatively tight-fisted and suffered no end of problems with health, employees and ex-wives. so i had the opportunity to see that even rich people receive back what they put into the universe.

posted February 06, 2009 12:51 PM            

Just to prevent misunderstanding, when I say "karma," I just mean cause and effect. It's a mindless force, like gravity. I don't mean to imply that because we do what we believe is "good" that therefore "good things" happen to us and vice versa.

posted February 08, 2009 09:37 PM            

But at the same time, I'm just giving a fair warning that too much faith in the lovey dovey universe (or even just one's own luck, thinking "what happens to others could never happen to me because I'm too lucky/blessed") gets many people hurt. True, many do ok, and of those that don't many survive (some even manage to hold onto their faith, for better and/or for worse), and of those that don't survive aren't here to complain about the Bible not being very accurate.

Also, not everyone you help will be thankful for it. Some will even see it as a weakness to be exploited, including in violent ways. All I'm saying is be careful and take precautions, because your benevolence isn't shared by everyone else, nor does it lift the spirits and soften the hearts of all witnesses, including among those that you help or see you help.

posted February 09, 2009 12:30 AM            

How true Dervish. The adage..."No good deed goes unpunished" applies in more cases than most people would think.

However, helping people out, in their need and/or pitching in and doing what needs to be done is more to do with your foundational belief system than anything else. It's not necessarily about them but more about you/me/us and what we believe.

Sometimes Dervish, we do things which we deem necessary...because we perceive they need to be done...and we can. The best reason.

Don't take this as an argument against what you've said because on one level, I agree with you. We don't know and can't know what karma we create with what we think is a simple act of kindness/caring...which may be harmful to those who are on the receiving end...and who may be in the process of learning a very painful lesson which we've aborted.

Still, I'm inclined to follow my own perceptions and fill a need when I perceive a need...when I can and because I can...and let the Universe or God sort it all out.

posted February 10, 2009 12:54 PM            

it IS more about being generous than about your generosity hitting the mark. you cannot control how your gifts are received, only give them with an open heart...

posted February 11, 2009 07:18 PM            

It's just in addition to what I've seen, experienced, and learned, I've met too many people in self-defense classes and the like who once believed that "God is bigger than any mugger" and the like who found that while that may be so, it didn't do them personally any good at all. Perhaps God cares about every sparrow that falls, but that sparrow falls without God to save it nonetheless.

posted February 20, 2009 07:20 AM              

Stop at nothing to support those hard - working ones who need a push .

Every member in my family for years has been giving away Prosthetic Sponsorships. In India medicare costs little . For a 100 dollars i can pay for a man who had his legs or hands chopped off for medical reasons or in an accident to get a new pair !!!!

There is welfare community organisation that organises this - every member in my family including me has been paying for the procedure of one person every year - there are loads of laboureres in Hazardous occupations that lose their arms and legs or others who are incapacitated by accidents and cant afford prosthetics.

I choose this over sponsoring Nationalised healthcare or single mom child care payments - these guys will actually start a new life as independent humans and wont have to depend on anyone else ever as productive citizens - now THAT is HELP.

Sharing Food with beggars, old clothes etc is fine.- In our religion about 20 % of our incomes are meant to be given away - for productive charity like i explained above.