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Author Topic:   Abusing the system or is it their privelege?
Eleanore
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From: Okinawa, Japan
Registered: Apr 2009

posted April 01, 2009 09:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[ Privilege, sorry.]

9 patients made nearly 2,700 ER visits in Texas

AUSTIN, Texas –

Just nine people accounted for nearly 2,700 of the emergency room visits in the Austin area during the past six years at a cost of $3 million to taxpayers and others, according to a report. The patients went to hospital emergency rooms 2,678 times from 2003 through 2008, said the report from the nonprofit Integrated Care Collaboration, a group of health care providers who care for low-income and uninsured patients.

"What we're really trying to do is find out who's using our emergency rooms ... and find solutions," said Ann Kitchen, executive director of the group, which presented the report last week to the Travis County Healthcare District board.

The average emergency room visit costs $1,000. Hospitals and taxpayers paid the bill through government programs such as Medicare and Medicaid, Kitchen said.

Eight of the nine patients have drug abuse problems, seven were diagnosed with mental health issues and three were homeless. Five are women whose average age is 40, and four are men whose average age is 50, the report said, the Austin American-Statesman reported Wednesday

"It's a pretty significant issue," said Dr. Christopher Ziebell, chief of the emergency department at University Medical Center at Brackenridge, which has the busiest ERs in the area.

Solutions include referring some frequent users to mental health programs or primary care doctors for future care, Ziebell said.

"They have a variety of complaints," he said. With mental illness, "a lot of anxiety manifests as chest pain."

******

Doesn't seem they were turned away and did receive health care. And, yes, I'll say it ... at taxpayers' expense. Doesn't seem as though the hospital thinks this is a good solution. And I wonder if situations precisely like these are why some people balk at reforming health insurance. Because there will always be people who won't pay for it no matter how cost effective? Is it concern for the homeless, drug abusers and those without work for prolonged periods of time that is causing the resistance?

I suppose the stigma of not being personally responsible (for whatever reason) for your health care is erased if all those who do pay income taxes end up paying for all the health care in the country. Whose business would it be if it was all automatically covered by those who do contribute to the system?

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sunshine_lion
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posted April 02, 2009 12:13 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
wow eleanore. that is interesting.
but, I don't think just the menatally ill have chest pains due to anxiety. Well i hope not anyway. it happens to me at times, and many other people experience heart palpataions and irregular heart beat, it can be pretty scary. there should be a universal rule for emergency room visits or some way to justify or catalog life threatening episodes.

1. breathing
2. cardiac
3. broken bones

if you are breathing and your heart is beating and you are not choking it is not life threatening.

people without insurance have a hard time finding healthcare and often do overuse emergency rooms as not to be turned away.

when you saydrug abusers, are you talkingof persons who overdose or who need an oxycontin?

overdose is life threatening and should be treated as such. i think becasue i am a smoker i should still get care if i happen to have a smoking related illness or emergency due to my addiction. they should have the same care.

looking for more painkillers or drug of choice, which these days is more LEGAL drug addicts than illegal drug addicts, they should be offered treatment literature and sent home.

it you questio nmy statement about legal versus illegal drug addicts, go to any addiction board and you will see. most of the posters are battling oxycontin, vicodin and xanax addictions. lets add soma to that list. although i don't know much about what soma is.

i researched it pretty extensivly when a loved one battled a presription drug addiction.

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katatonic
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posted April 02, 2009 12:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
why does the average emergency room visit cost $1000? isn't that a little steep, esp when you consider the nature of most of these complaints?

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sunshine_lion
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posted April 02, 2009 12:22 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
well katatonic, if you ever look at a hospital bill, the cheap mini box of kleenex that is in your room, 8 bucks on the bill.
kinda like the government witha 1,000 dollar commode. everything is way over priced. way.

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Eleanore
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From: Okinawa, Japan
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posted April 03, 2009 10:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, I've never argued against providing healthcare for anyone. I'm just concerned about who has to pay for it. And it occurred to me that if people really believed that all people are willing and capable of being responsible for paying for their own health insurance (and again, we're talking about including reforms on the current insurance system) then what would be the need for a socialized system?

So, is that the situation? Some people believe that x, y and z people will not, for whatever reason, be able/willing to pay their own insurance costs? And so the rest of us have to pay it for them by default?


Btw, drug abuse is drug abuse, imo, when it comes to how it can affect people's lives/abilities; whether the drug is legal or not doesn't so much affect a person's day to day functionality. But it is something people choose to do. I don't care if you're drug of choice is alcohol or cigarettes or marijuana or heroin or whatever. But I don't think I should be obligated to pay for your healthcare costs.

The same argument applies for abortion, obesity, etc. I don't care what people choose to do to their bodies. I may care philosophically or ideologically; ie, not agree with the choice. But I'm not big on restricting what people do to themselves based on my own moral perspective. However, I don't think anyone should be punished for someone else's choices. Taking my money away against my will to pay for what someone else knowingly chose to do to themselves is just not right. And "knowingly chose" includes obesity, drugs, stds, pregnancy and all the other taboo subjects ... because people know there is an increased risk with x behavior and they willingly chose to accept that risk by engaging in x behavior.


If someone thinks I'm being unfair on obesity, btw, I'm pulling the BS card. An obese person's healthcare costs are almost twice as much as a healthy weight person's costs per year. Employers are finding it very expensive to cover their obese employee's healthcare w/o raising costs. Laws are being passed to protect obese people's privacy regarding their weight and against "discrimination". However, the bottom line is that they do cost more to treat. If it's no one's business what your lifestyle choices are, then neither should it be anyone's business but yours to pay for the effects of your lifestyle choices. Eventually, imo, employers will simply cease to offer insurance benefits because of the rising costs ... and, of course, all those who didn't contribute to the collapse of the system will be punished just the same.


So, again, my problem is not what people choose to do with their bodies or that xyz people shouldn't be treated for whatever problems they have. My only concern is who is going to end up paying for it all as none of it is free.


Oh, regarding the cost of emergency room visits .... it is more expensive than visiting a regular provider. Using the emergency room for non-emergencies just because you can't afford to pay for a doctor visit is exploitation; and even if you pay the bill yourself it is a waste of resources. If you deposit yourself in an emergency room complaining of a heart attack, they will treat you as if you seriously are having a heart attack. Sue happy people will sue for malpractice at the drop of a hat, don't forget ... so every case has to be treated seriously.

That means loads of tests and screenings, keeping you overnight to assess your health and possibly more tests to figure out what is wrong if nothing shows up as an actual heart problem. You're charged for the room/stay, the medicines administered, the tests done, etc. And all that adds up to big $$$. $1000 in my experience is really not all that much considering the costs I've seen and experienced at hospitals.

However, class action lawsuits are not unheard of for hospitals that allegedly overcharge uninsured patients, either. EG: Sutter Health Uninsured Pricing
Class Action Lawsuit

Overcharging healthcare should certainly be stopped. Imo, this is related to the horrible state of our insurance system because doctors/hospitals are rarely ever compensated at actual cost value for the services they provide by these insurance companies, if they're compensated at all.

But I don't see the fed gov doing much regarding this issue. Perhaps the reason socialized healthcare suits the goals of big government so well is because they can simply refuse to treat people they think are too expensive to treat. GSK Appeals Against NICE Decision To Deny Women Advanced Breast Cancer Treatment, Tyverb(R) (Lapatinib), UK . However disgusting it may be, in the end it all comes down to money and it's no different in government. "Cost effective" is frightening wording when it comes to other people deciding my options for healthcare.

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katatonic
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posted April 03, 2009 12:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
eleanore i understand your concerns but american insurance companies are even worse than the uk national insurance when it comes to cutting people off, not treating "pre-existing conditions", etc etc. and even insured people can come home from treatment with thousands in bills they cannot pay.

national healthcare costs the individual less because more people are involved; it also eliminates some of the UNINSURED because it is taken from their paychecks as taxes.

my sister in law saved herself tens of thousands of pounds using the national health when she had breast cancer. yes, there's red tape, and yes she took advice periodically from a private doctor, but it was that private doctor who recommended the national health for quality and cost-effectiveness!!

plenty of english people have private insurance as well, which is A LOT CHEAPER because the ins. companies over there know people have the national to fall back on if they choose...

and when it comes to the "undocumented" or illegal immigrants using the health system it is good to remember that most of those people are actually paying tax and social security, only they are using someone else's card so the money goes into the pot even if they don't file returns...

so national health programs rope in money in taxes from people who would not ordinarily pay for health insurance. ie it may be added to your tax bill but it will lower your insurance bill more.

no system is perfect but despite the red tape i found the quality of care on the national health in england was generally A1. the dental field not so good but after years of unsatisfactory dentistry i found a man who had figured out the system, gotten to know the techs who worked with him, and basically gave the best dental treatment i have ever seen for next to nothing. so it is partly ignorance and laziness on the part of practitioners and not just the system which is at fault...

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Mannu
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From: always here and no where
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posted April 03, 2009 12:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mannu     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
yep, agree with kat.

people must be blinded to not see greedy capitalism at work in us hospitals.. its every where ...health , auto, home ...etc etc..
The germans hates those greedy ******** , sipping brandy in their private dens while the common people sweat it out.

i don't mind people using my tax money to get treated..i can make their drug experience part of mine and be glad someone tried it

.perhaps the practise at hospitals needs to be investigated...

lot of health professionals are optimistic by the Obama govt i heard. may be theres a reason.


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sunshine_lion
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posted April 03, 2009 12:49 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
as many people complain about it, just as many love it. so many canadian's wouldn't even think of coming to america in case something happened to them and they couldn't afford healthcare that they need. most canadian's are very happy with thier system.

i mean, i don't think it's right at all to say, you don't get healthcare because you made bad choices. i have mixed feelings about it. i would rather help pay for someone who really needed care than for octomom 8 well baby visits. bottom line being i don't think anyone should do without health care.

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Mannu
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posted April 03, 2009 08:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mannu     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am sick of the security nest that these conservatives build around them. Its so phony and flimsy. They always compare and live their life on some dogma.

The KOG belongs to sinners. Saints make it very late

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Eleanore
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From: Okinawa, Japan
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posted April 03, 2009 09:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I wouldn't say you can't get healthcare if you made this or that choice that lead to this or that problem. I'm just saying why should I or anyone else be forced to pay for it?

Assuming hospitals/doctors could be stopped from overcharging the uninsured, and that insurance could be regulated to be less of a scam, then payment option plans should be an option. For every person that seriously needs help and has found themselves in a bad place regardless of good intentions, there is someone else who doesn't care and exploits the system.

When I didn't have health insurance, I paid out of pocket. It wasn't cheap and I wasn't rich but I worked out a payment plan and eventually paid things off. I didn't stop and say, well, hell, you have to treat me and someone else better pay for it.


Make no mistake that, if it were up to the government to decide who got care, certain groups would be denied outright. Like the elderly. It's not cost effective to pay for grandma's surgery if she's not going to live that long anyway, you know. Have to conserve resources and cut back on expenses and whatnot. It's a completely different situation than if grandma said, ah well, I choose not to be treated because I'm so darn old anyway.

And seeing as Obama thinks it's a good idea to send people to war and then not cover the cost of their war related injuries when they come back home in order to "save" money, I don't think I'm exaggerating.

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juniperb
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From: Blue Star Kachina
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posted April 04, 2009 08:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

quote:
The same argument applies for abortion, obesity, etc. I don't care what people choose to do to their bodies. I may care philosophically or ideologically; ie, not agree with the choice. But I'm not big on restricting what people do to themselves based on my own moral perspective. However, I don't think anyone should be punished for someone else's choices. Taking my money away against my will to pay for what someone else knowingly chose to do to themselves is just not right.

Amen sister!!

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

- George Eliot

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katatonic
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posted April 04, 2009 09:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
once again...

"eleanore i understand your concerns but american insurance companies are even worse than the uk national insurance when it comes to cutting people off, not treating "pre-existing conditions", etc etc. and even insured people can come home from treatment with thousands in bills they cannot pay"

and you apparently agree that the insurance companies need regulating, but don't want to pay any tax to create a regulating body? who's going to do it?


i'm beginning to feel like a character in a kafka story...

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Dervish
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posted April 04, 2009 11:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dervish     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I imagine a few law suits in this sue happy culture could do quite a bit to regulate it, and more effectively than a board that can be bought off. There might be a bill that needs to be passed, but that would be about all that's needed.

No matter what, seeing medical and insurance companies duke it out by trying to give the biggest bribe to congresscritters & CEOs could get interesting.

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AcousticGod
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posted April 06, 2009 02:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
I'm just saying why should I or anyone else be forced to pay for it?

So public entities that ensure the citizens safety and well being should go away? No more police, more more fire departments, no more justice system, no more military, etc. Sounds like an endorsement of anarchy.

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katatonic
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posted April 06, 2009 07:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
NOW we're talking! because ALL governments regulate and without them you have anarchy...but who amongst us knows whether that would really be a bad thing? have you ever experienced it??

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Eleanore
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posted April 06, 2009 08:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dervish

Context, AG. Do people who get shot by criminals do it to themselves? Um, no. The police protect us from other people. They also uphold laws. About the only thing it is illegal to do to yourself is kill yourself immediately; ie, it's not illegal to smoke and die by your own hand over time. And how stupid is that? You can't prosecute a dead person now can you? The military protects us from other nations/peoples that are a threat. Healthcare is also not a law. Do you see the difference? The military is one of the few entities clearly outlined in the Constitution regarding what the government can tax us for, btw. [And, jumping ahead, the 16th Amendment is patently unconstitutional. Unless you can argue that I can just tag on an Amendment that says "No free speech" and call that constitutional, too, even though it clearly contradicts what's already there. But repealing that won't be easy because then whose jobs/paycheck would be in trouble? Haha, the joke's on us.]

(general commentary)

Do I think temporary aid should be available in times of crisis like an attack against the nation? Perhaps. It all depends on how the dolts in DC go about it. I also would not be opposed to temporary aid for people who cannot afford it but note the temporary ... I do not agree with continually helping people who only exploit the system on purpose. Same thing with helping single moms get jobs, childcare, etc. I'm all about helping you with your first pregnancy if you really need it. After that, (second pregnancy and beyond) you're on your own because then you're just knowingly exploiting the system.


Such far reaching implications. Nowhere in our Constitution does it say that the government has to give you all you want or need for free. You're guaranteed the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. PURSUIT. No one guarantees you'll ever find it. And YOU have to do the pursuing.

People can't afford healthcare. Why? Oh, perhaps they didn't go to college. Surely the government must fix that. Everybody, free ride to college! Can't afford a house? Free house! Clothes? Free clothes! Food? Free food! How about we just get in line for all our wonderfully free, rationed things right now? What evil cold hearted ******** we are to not ensure that our government provides all our basic necessities for us.

Who's going to argue that shelter, clothing, food and even an education are not as imperative to life as healthcare? Who is actually going to pay for any of it if it's all "free"? Because if you're not responsible for getting it for yourself, then I'll be damned if I'll be responsible for you. How about you be responsible for me? How about you go to work so I don't have to? Oh, gladly will I sit on my arse if they ever truly socialize this nation. And who among you would complain? It's then MY RIGHT to take your money, too, regardless of my actual capabilities ... just like everybody else.


Choosing to binge drink and ending up with a screwed up liver was not done to you; you did it to yourself. Although we're seeing the logic creep into the socialized system, now. You know, how obese people are getting a lot of crap for costing so much money and that's nevermind how big their carbon footprint is. See the difference? I don't care what you do to yourself so long as you pay for it. I DO NOT AGREE WITH SOCIALIZED POLICIES THAT DENY HEALTHCARE TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE MADE BAD CHOICES OR WHO ARE NOT COST EFFECTIVE TO TREAT, LIKE THE ELDERLY. (How the heck is that compassionate, btw?) Neither do I agree that everyone else is responsible for your bad choices and that you are in no way responsible.

We aren't living in Medieval times. Everybody knows the risks they are taking. So if you want to have your cake and eat it, too, all I ask is that you pay for your cake and for your diabetes meds if and when you need them, too.


All that said, you can't really buy "police insurance" or "military insurance" can you? And Dervish is right. I don't understand why anyone would think that every law that is passed needs its own regulating body. Government jobs are not productive. They don't produce anything but they do get paid by those who are producing things. We really don't need, nor can we afford (thanks, Obama, for making that painfully clear) to have such a huge monstrosity of a regulating body micromanaging our lives.


On top of that, both the police and military are so completely underfunded and undermanned that I'm surprised anyone would use them as examples of anything the government has done right. But hey, I didn't see any congresspersons taking pay cuts.

Take a good look at how they've failed the people who are supposed to be protecting us and try to wrap your head around the idea that they'll treat doctors and nurses and other health professionals just as poorly.

Although, I suppose if doctors didn't have to pay for their education, because "someone somewhere" would be working at "something" taxable to pay it for them, then they don't really need any money to practice. They can live in their little government provided shack and practice medicine for free.

It sure works for my relatives in Cuba. Everyone is equal because they're all dirt poor ... except for government officials. Surely, that's the new American dream.

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AcousticGod
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posted April 06, 2009 09:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't have internet at my new place yet, and I'm not sure that I can elaborate my point in a few lines written via my cell phone.

It doesn't matter whether your neighbor caused his or her health malady. You don't want to pay for it either way. Therefore you believe that it should be everyone's personal responsibility, and if it's going to be everyone's personal responsibility, then naturally that means you should be railing against all these agencies that provide for the public good with your tax dollars. Why should your money be put to use in an inner-city jail? The inner-city brought about that nuisance. You're not involved. Why should you have to pay for that?

You don't complain about things like prison, because you can easily extrapolate that the whole community benefits from it NOT being a matter of personal responsibility, but rather mutual responsibility. What I'm challenging you to do is get beyond popular thought, and imagine the ways the community can be served by allowing everyone access to their own physical well-being (like they are through police services, fire services, justice services, emergency services, and military services). Why should health be a privilege?

Doesn't it help everyone to have everyone healthy?

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Randall
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posted December 22, 2010 12:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
*bump*

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"The stars which shone over Babylon and the stable in Bethlehem still shine as brightly over the Empire State Building and your front yard today. They perform their cycles with the same mathematical precision, and they will continue to affect each thing on earth, including man, as long as the earth exists." Linda Goodman

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Randall
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posted February 01, 2011 09:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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"Cooking is like love. It should be entered into with abandon or not at all." Harriet Van Horne

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Randall
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posted April 11, 2011 02:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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"All deaths are suicides, do you realize that? Every single one. The only distinction is that, with some people, suicide is a subconscious choice, and with others it's a conscious choice. Otherwise, those who commit suicide and those who succumb to accident, illness or "old age," die for exactly the same reason: belief in the inevitability of death." Linda Goodman

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Randall
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posted May 30, 2011 01:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
*bump*

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