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Author Topic:   writing poetry
Worldly Man's Advocate
Knowflake

Posts: 29
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Registered: Nov 2002

posted November 18, 2002 01:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Worldly Man's Advocate     Edit/Delete Message
Sher Bear, Dafremen, Sagaquari, and whoever else out there writes poetry,

I was wondering: have any of you taken poetry classes; are any of you professional poets?

I would like to write really good poetry, but where I am now falls far short of what I think good poetry is. I know there is this idea that poetry should be a spontaneous outburst; there's some force to that argument, but I do also think it is a craft and I need to understand all the devices and so on before I can consciously write very good material.

It is a strange thing; some of the best poetry I ever wrote came out without effort, and I look at it and absolutely cannot make out WHY it is so much better than my other stuff. If I could understand it, I could use it consciously.

At the moment, I am reading a book on technical poetry; you know, with the iambic pentameters, etc etc, but am not as yet satisfied.

To give you an example of what I am talking about, I give below part of a poem I was writing; I cannot figure out what really captures my about these four lines, but they are better than most of the things I write. If I could just understand how it was that I wrote it, then I could write good poetry regularly. Anyway, the four lines are from a poem I was writing on behalf of a friend for this girl he wanted to go out with:

Said the Great Architect, "Man should have beauty, joy, delight"
"Someone to bring to the darkest hour the light"
Thus Venus with your form was blessed
And to an exultant Earth Sent.

If there is anyone who knows how to analyse poetry, please put your analysis here.

And just generally, I would like to know what everyone thinks makes a good poem.

Thanks,
WMA

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taj
Knowflake

Posts: 530
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Registered: Aug 2002

posted November 18, 2002 03:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for taj     Edit/Delete Message
this should help.
http://www.marilynsinger.net/Goodpoem.htm

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Sher bear
Knowflake

Posts: 161
From: Canada
Registered: Nov 2002

posted November 18, 2002 03:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sher bear     Edit/Delete Message
WMA,

I don't analise the stuff at all...For me it's about emotion, and feeling - period...I don't have a clue to the techniques,cuz when I write it's only to unload emotional garbage....I'm in no way a professional,and don't take it seriously enough to care to really....It's more of a soul thing for me.....I suspect the Taurus in you wants to gather resources, and be all methodical about the whole procedure - and please keep up the wonderful work cuz I totally dig your stuff -However I'm a pisces, so I'm not very practical about anything.....Anyways
Here's one that I've never put and ending to...
Beuty within that's wearing thin...this game I'm playing with fate
To much regret - won't soon forget
The risks my actions will take.
To lost to grow - the seeds I'll sew - twisted, in-twined, deny...
No one can fool the golden rule
so why waste our time and try.
Dark to light, I'll search the fight
Defending the misunderstood
So what of good and things that should
Be brought to life through site....
Inspire the lost, but for how long, and at what cost, this challege I've since begun
To weak to try, so life I'll deny,
and from myself I'll run...
But blessed are we, deceived by three-
no one but all is us...
I've played this game, it's all insane
subtracting a minus to Plus..

I don't really think my stuff makes any sense, but tends to invoke emotion....your style has the ablity to create image in my head(And ya, I've got to have some ..I mean only if you don't mind...)- so yes, whatever you're doing,please just keep doing it - me, I have no clue, I tend to call my silliness "ranting" - I don't really think it's even poetry.....BLEZZINGs
Oh ya, your turn......Tee, He,,,
P.S and so what IS good poetry anyways?

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Worldly Man's Advocate
Knowflake

Posts: 29
From:
Registered: Nov 2002

posted November 18, 2002 07:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Worldly Man's Advocate     Edit/Delete Message
Thanks for the link, Taj. I especially like the one that goes: What makes a good poem? A good poet.

What is good poetry, you ask, Sher Bear. I guess it’s like asking, what is a good person? Maybe a good person is a moral one, or maybe just a very pretty one, or maybe just a very intelligent one… and the list goes on. A person is ‘good’ in the context of our interest. So if we need a good engineer for a job, a ‘bad’ person (e.g.) would be someone who is ONLY very moral. So in terms of poetry, if we accept it as a form of communication, we must choose the right mood and tone for our message, and if we have chosen well and are skillful in using that mood and tone, then we make a ‘good’ poem.

And Sher Bear, I really enjoyed your poem. Thanks! Again, that wonderful rhythm and flow. Also, let us remember that life is too short for modesty… we both know that it is poetry, and not ranting that you are making. Please send some more. In payment, another poem is given below.

I do see a very clear pattern in your poem – a single line with an internal rhyme followed by a line without internal rhyme but ‘packs the punch’ – very effective. See, now that I understand why your poems flow the way they do, I can use this device if I wish to create that particular mood.

I want to know all the devices that might be available so that when I choose a style, I choose it consciously – knowing what is available, and selecting the best possible option. And I should be skillful in using that device. It gives me a better chance at communicating my feeling. On the other hand, if the communicating is not important, and if you write purely for your own release, then I guess… but no, wait, even then, I think it would be better to choose the best possible style.

What makes it really interesting is that some of best material I have seen doesn’t follow any prescribed format. So there are still some discoveries to be made. Anyway, here’s a poem that doesn’t have much rhythm but there is a kind of symmetry in the concepts.

Her Gift

Her beauty is soft and quiet
Her eyes are patient and calm
She knows I have forgotten
Yet her Gift she holds out still.

She gives me one more second
She hopes I will not sway
To anger fall I prey again
Yet her Gift she holds out still.

She gives me one vital minute
She knows I can change my course
I give my passions free reign
Yet her Gift she holds out still.

She gives me one precious hour
She sees I have the knowledge
Inertia dulls my wits
Yet her Gift she holds out still.

She gives me one gracious day
She bids me “Do His Will”
Ego draws me elsewhere
Yet her Gift she holds out still.

She gives me one whole year
She knows Virtues take their time
More vices do I culture
Yet her Gift she holds out still.

She gives me one whole lifetime
She yearns to give me her love
I turn my haughty face aside
Yet her Gift she holds out still.

Her Gift she holds out still
But I have now grown old
The Deeds that I had promised
A younger man must do.

[oh, did I forget to say... YOUR TURN!!! ]

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ice Mists
Knowflake

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Registered: Jun 2002

posted November 18, 2002 10:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ice Mists     Edit/Delete Message
i don't know much about poetry, but for me a good poem is similar to what makes a person charismatic, magnetic

a person may be good and righteous, yet lacks charm, same goes for poetry

if you can bring that certain attractivness, individuality and originality into the poem provided with the right combination of words to create your desired feeling; then you will know it, cause it'll seem to be more alive with energy and depth of emotion

the poem is like an extension of your personality with your unique essence captured on paper

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ice Mists
Knowflake

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Registered: Jun 2002

posted November 18, 2002 10:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ice Mists     Edit/Delete Message
taj, that was a good link

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Virgo-AriesArtist
Moderator

Posts: 714
From: USA
Registered: Nov 2001

posted November 18, 2002 11:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Virgo-AriesArtist     Edit/Delete Message
As for me, I'm definitely not a professional poet, but I have been writing the stuff for over 5 years. I have found that time and experience have caused an improvement in my ability to create poetic verse. Yet, I will agree with what has been said in regard to the best writing coming from overwhelming and unplanned emotion. I have found that anger, despair, and frustration welling up unlock an ease with words inside me that no formal studying could possibly replicate.
And, and to quote our beloved Linda:
" '...poetry is the subtle alchemy of a sensitive soul'

like hell it is

poetry is what squeezes out of you
when you've been squashed by Life, like a bug" ~Gooberz

I think it would be cool if we all started sharing as much poetry as possible cause I know I enjoy both the writing and the reading of well-written phrase.
Love and Light...

------------------
-K
"Most people love with restraint
As if they were someday to hate
We hated gently, carefully
As if we were someday to love"-Venus Trines at Midnight

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Worldly Man's Advocate
Knowflake

Posts: 29
From:
Registered: Nov 2002

posted November 19, 2002 02:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Worldly Man's Advocate     Edit/Delete Message
But knowing the devices means that you are prepared, when you are lucky enough to have the great burst of misery etc etc., to express it to the clearest possible effect.

They say the luck is where opportunity meets preparation.

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dafremen
Knowflake

Posts: 538
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Registered: Nov 2002

posted June 20, 2003 03:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dafremen     Edit/Delete Message
First of all, I'm flattered to have been one that came to mind when you decided to ask the "poets" for input. Thank you.

Secondly let me repeat what you and others here have said:

Hoaky poetry is constructed, "good" poetry is inspired.

My poems start out in one of three ways:

1. A feeling or concept brought about by a realworld situation. Relationships between people and the solitude of the human condition usually trigger these.

2. A feeling or idea brought about by an imagined situation. These come about in the course of frequent mental wanderings. I spend a lot of time like the kid from Bobby's World, imagining what things might or could be. I favor the ridiculous.

3. A catchy line sticks in my head and I mull it over for a few days, weeks or months until it feels like its ready to be part of a poem.

I agree that the best poetry comes straight from someplace deep within, someplace outside of the ego. However, I also tend to "tweak" a piece once it's been put to paper. Sometimes I end up throwing the revisions away, but sometimes the poem gets better. Sitting down to construct a poem when inspiration is lacking is not always, but usually a rotten idea. I'll post an example here that I keep tucked away in my "ugly children" folder to give you an idea:

You there
Face. Face? Face!
Stop! Please!
Wait, wait, wait!

Must you
Run…run…run
Nowhere?
Fun fun fun.

Left me.
Gone, gone, gone.
See me
Long…long…long?

Here, there.
Place. Place. Place.
Footsteps!
Trace...trace…trace.

The child was gone, a note instead.
Had faces stopped, they might have read:

Goodbye Face,
It’s been fun.
Couldn’t wait, had to run.
Don’t stay long, in this place.
When you’ve gone, take this trace.
Tell noone.
Sincerely,
Face

This was a constructed poem. It was not ready to be written. This is obvious to me because I still recall the feeling, the idea that I meant to express. It was about a child born into a world with no example to follow save the blur of busy people running here and there, with no time for a little child. In the end, the child becomes another one of them...just another face in the blur.

The poem falls short of my standards for myself for several reasons:

It doesn't effectively communicate what I meant to express.

It doesn't flow, it is stilted and contrived.

The verse SEEMS constructed and the rhymes are forced. To much attention was paid to a "gimmick." (Reassembling the last words of the previous verses into a final verse.)

All in all these are signs of a not-so-good poem.

A good poem? You know a good poem when you read it. Usually though, until the audience gets ahold of it and accepts or rejects it, you can only know whether or not it is a good poem...for you.

Flow and timing are important to the pieces I create...probably my top priority as far as the technical aspect of forming a poem. They must roll off of the tongue. If I can't rap it or sing it or picture myself reciting it, then the flow needs work.

Second is wordplay. I love to play with words and it's likely that I'll invent a word or phrase if nothing else fits the words that are already on paper. If the words fit the mood and are conducive to the flow of the piece, I will by all means use them until something better comes along.
Be prepared to throw away perfectly good lines to accomodate those that follow, especially if you're one of us seat-of-the-pants masochists that enjoy creating structured and/or rhymed verse.


If your poem is for an audience, keep the details vague and make the intangible tangible. Let the characters be ANYBODY so that the reader can empathize, maybe even slip into the role if they like. Make sure the feelings are STRONG. Whether they run throughout the piece or are saved for a final PUNCH at the end, the feelings must play solid on the heartstrings for most poems to be effective.

When you create a poem worth sharing, you'll know it. You'll want to read it over and over and over again. You'll want someone else to read it too, just to be sure that you aren't deluding yourself.

Poems aren't written, they are forged deep in the heart of a wordsmith. They are the battleground upon which the struggle for effective expression meets the desire to express effectively.

They are something that you can give freely which can never be taken from you.

They are photocopies of a feeling.

8) Daf

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Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 16464
From: Columbus, GA USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted June 23, 2003 02:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
To the top!

------------------
"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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