posted February 08, 2008 04:01 PM              

"Take it or leave it."

I did take and and then left it. So, yes, we can have it both ways and often do.

I didnt misunderstand what you said. Nothing went over my head. I just didnt respond the way you expected someone to, i guess. In case you havent noticed, you are not dealing with an intellectual here. I think it's possible that you misunderstand a lot of what i say.

**"And maybe, just maybe,
your detached, idealistic Venus in Gemini
is in no position to fathom,
let alone pass judgment upon,
my passionate, subjective Venus in Scorpio?"

God forbid! And was i passing judgment? I really didnt think i was! Just putting some thoughts out there.
One's passions can get them into some troubles.

**"And maybe your 6th house Jupiter
doesnt know whats best for my 7th house Jupiter?
Perhaps, as you continue to find God in self-cultivation (6th),
I'll continue to find God in partnership with others (7th)?"

Sorry you think i was trying to tell you what is best for you. I wasnt, I swear! Geesh.

Who said i havent found God in others?
Or in nature or anywhere else.

Like many, you think youve got me pegged.

**"And maybe the warnings from your Mars and Saturn
exaggerate the dangers posed by the 7th house,
and are not receptive to its treasures?"

Maybe. But is that, where the best or only treasures lie? If that is so for you - great!

Relationships are not foreign to me, HSC, okay? I've had more than my share and continue to, of all kinds. I've learned much through them. Saturn and Mars can tell you that.

**"Maybe all those self-contained/self-complacent planets
located beneath the horizon of your chart,
and/or in the first six signs of the Zodiac,
have very little to tell the planets in my chart
that are involved in more social and impersonal matters?"

Actually, the planets in my chart are pretty evenly distributed. With most of them on the western side (4 through 10) of the chart and in social houses. They are not mostly in the first six signs of the zodiac or lower half of my chart.

**"I believe I understand what you are saying,
and I've understood it before.
And I'm not going to kill myself just because I'm lonely.
I'm not giving up on loving me, etc.
Every day, I work on that relationship,
and on my relationship to higher powers,
identifying with pure awareness, etc.
Every day, alone or in partnership,
brings me closer to self-sufficiency, -
but I am not there yet,"

I know! And that's great.

Neither am i.

**"and there is nothing wrong with this longing,
or with learning through relationships.
"

If you will re-read my first post, you will see i was saying the same thing.

**"Romance is human,"

Very true.

**"Passion is plutonian, and so am I."

Okay, no one can top your Plutonian depths and sensitivity. We know, but..
Have you forgotten that I have Pluto in it's home in the 8th along with my Moon and North Node? There are other astrological pieces i could point out here too, but it feels a tad silly now. I'm not sure why this had to turn into the astrology aspect of it all...

I'll guess that is my shallow Venus in Gemini not being able to comprehend your Scorpionic depths.

I hear you too.

Off to work (with actual people).

posted February 12, 2008 01:52 PM              

The Rose -

Some say love it is a river
that drowns the tender reed
Some say love it is a razor
that leaves your soul to bleed

Some say love it is a hunger
an endless aching need
I say love it is a flower
and you it's only seed

It's the heart afraid of breaking
that never learns to dance
It's the dream afraid of waking that never takes the chance
It's the one who won't be taken
who cannot seem to give
and the soul afraid of dying that never learns to live

When the night has been too lonely
and the road has been too long
and you think that love is only
for the lucky and the strong
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows
lies the seed
that with the sun's love
in the spring
becomes the rose

posted February 12, 2008 08:07 PM              

I think asking " what would I have done unto me?" is much better and makes a lot more sense than asking " what would Jesus do?"

Mainly because none of us can really answer the latter question, not being anywhere close to who and what Jesus was/is. But I think the first question, "what would I do unto me?" is the question that even Jesus would prefer we ask. It's the one question we should all be able to answer very easily once we think to ask it.

posted February 13, 2008 04:10 PM            

I appreciate your comments.

quote:

---

And HSC, what if 26T and others do hear you and understand you perfectly?

---

I think NosiS heard and understood me perfectly.

26T and Daf didnt tell me anything I didnt know, -
or, at least, know as well as them,
though they imagine that,
by changing their terms and speaking of "God",
they have arrived at a higher vantage point.

The truth is, they Ache as I do, -
and they admit the truth of this,
although, they want to believe that
the object of their Aching is more real, more noble.
But there is no object,
there is only the Aching,
or whatever is happening.
And it is not for something -
not for a lover, not for God.
Rather, it IS something.
It is God.
And all this is very clever,
and fun to think about,
and it makes us feel spiritual,
but it really doesnt matter what you call it;
the manifestations of God are not less than God;
the manifestations of God are God.
And "God", in whatever sense you may know Him,
will only ever appear to you as a manifestation.
So, I see it as ridiculous
to be told that my aching is misplaced,
and I should focus it on "The One".
If the aching is for The One,
then, what does it matter what I focus on,
or what I call the object of my aching?
A rose by any other name would ache as sweetly.
Anyway,
I felt that their sympathy, or,
if they couldnt muster it, their silence,
would have been far more helpful than the usual New Age "bull".

What Daf did wasnt just annoying to me,
it was positively depressing.
Daf pressumed to psycho-analyze me,
in the passive-aggressive style common to him,
and to say some of the harshest things I've seen on these boards -
but its okay, because he wasnt talking about me, right?
R-i-g-h-t.

Honestly,
if he really doesnt know he was talking about me,
or, about what he thinks of me,
then, he is one of the most unconscious people
I have ever come across on these boards or anywhere.
And, if he did know, then,
he was just being deceptive,
and trying to avoid responsibility
for saying what he wanted to say.

Here is what Daf did:

Its like if a fat person is crying,
saying, "I feel so fat,"
and someone chimes in with,
"That reminds me of a guy I knew once.
Boy, what a fat slob he was.
I mean, dont get me wrong,
he wasnt a bad guy.
He was just really hard to be around,
and, boy, what a slob," and so on;
"Thanks for the trip down memory lane, friend".
How passive-aggressive can you get, seriously?

He goes on to speak of mother issues,
and, evidently, he thinks he is being helpful,
and not just jumping at the chance to humiliate me
when I make myself vulnerable and admit my faults.
He actually thinks he is telling me something I dont know,
even though I told him this stuff myself a few weeks ago.
Then he goes on to spin some bull about his own mom,
and how this revelation is going to lead to healing,
but really he is just saying,
"See, I can learn from this. Can you?"
Its transparent and sad.

Either he is full of sh!t, or,
he thinks that his lesson is comparable to mine,
and that, if I dont have a "eureka" moment like him,
it isnt because I'm dealing with a very different problem,
and with very different tools at my disposal,
but, that I am somehow to blame for my predicament,
and that he is in a perfect position to judge.

Of course, he will deny this,
because thats what most people do.
After all, "judgement" is a New Age buzz word.
And of course everyone will believe him,
because everyone wants to believe good things,
and they want to believe that an angry voice
speaks only from misunderstanding and wounded vanity;
never from the depths, or from wounded innocence.
And I'll be scolded again, but,
at least I've said my peace.
"One may smile, and smile, and be a villain."
~ Hamlet

quote:

---

Once writers give their gifts to the world, the world then turns them into whatever they wish to.

---

We are not talking about writers but human beings.
When a human being makes himself vulnerable,
yes, there is always the risk that
the people he is showing himself to
will pass judgment on him,
throw his confession back in his face,
accuse him of inviting them to a pity-party,
then serve him a raw, cold helping of easy answers
(which always makes them feel warm and good about themselves),
and, if possible, a nice cool glass of shut-the-hell-up.
We know this risk is always there,
and that is partly why most people dont share
as completely and confessionally as I do.
Even though I know the risk is there,
I still feel compelled to be myself,
and to show myself as much as possible,
and I have faith, or hope, at least,
that my listeners will hear me
and respond to me responsibly.

quote:

---

Your writing is a reflection of self when it is private, then it becomes a reflection of others self when it is shared.

---

Good point.
Now tell that to the others.

quote:

---

Besides, it is my experiece that often those outside our inner circle can provide us with the most thought provoking insight.

---

That's true.
We all need to step outside our echo-chambers,
and hear what different people have to say.
Things always look simpler from a distance.
Sometimes, this is a great help.
Other times, not so much.
Some problems really are very complicated,
and no matter how many easy answers you throw at them,
you just can't seem to hit the bullseye.
The thing that bothers me is when,
after chucking a few easy answers at me and my problems,
people get all indignant and say,
"Well, you just dont want to be helped,"
because, after all, if what they said didnt make the difference,
then nothing will, right? lol
Then they resent you every time you mention your problem -
i.e. any time you say something vulnerable.
Resenting it, they judge you and punish you every time you open up.
I've seen it time and time again.
People think just because easy answers work for them,
that every problem may be solved just as easily.
Well, excuse me for saying it when nobody else will, but,
some people, and some problems, are more complex than that.

This is why I'm upset.

posted February 13, 2008 04:51 PM            

quote:

---

a nice cool glass of shut-the-hell-up

---

posted February 13, 2008 05:02 PM            

does that come with a wedge of lemon?

hehehe a laugh was nice
Saturn's bitter sense of humor is funny.

At least I think so. After all, I always crack myself up. It always reminds me of that quote about a speech in anger being the best speech you ever gave/regret. I don't usually regret my words though. I weigh them too carefully before I serve them.

posted February 14, 2008 12:30 AM            

Okay, I wont pressume to put words in your mouth,
about God or anything else, if I can help it.

I believe you that you did not consciously intend to hurt me.
But I think your posts here show a lack of self-awareness,
and a lot of supressed judgments and attitudes.

Now you say that you had something to communicate to me, --
something which you knew was personal and sensitive,
and which you would rather have said in an email, --
but, the next minute, you expect me to believe you
when you say, "he was nothing like you, of course".

If you think he was nothing like me, Daf,
then what exactly is so personal to me about your story?
Why did you think it was important enough,
and delicate enough, to share in an email,
and not on the boards?

Clearly, you foresaw, at least dimly,
what the consequences of your act would be.

And the "of course he's nothing like you"...
You didnt mean for that to be taken literally,
and we both know it.

That was your way of being discreet
(or pretending to attempt to be discreet),
so that I would get the message and nobody else.

But subconsciously you wanted to identify me with this person,
and you wanted everyone to see you do it.
You just didnt want to say it directly,
because, lets face it,
you are evasive, insincere, and sneaky.
No big deal, really.
I'm reckless, lazy, and irresponsible.
Pleased to meet you.

I hope you feel better soon, too.

And, yes,
next time I showcase my stigma(ta) in public,
and ask if anyone has a band-aid,
you can look, but dont touch.

Until you get some band-aids,
or some gentler balms, please,
keep your hands off of my wounds.

And if you cant help me down from the cross,
dont mock me by telling me to come down.

You showed a wound here once,
and I empathized with you, remember?

I offerred sympathy and compassionate advice.
For that, I was demeaned and ganged-up on.

So, I wont offer my clumsy compassion to you,
and you can keep your clumsy "tough love" for me.

Sound fair?

Sorry, I dont mean to get so worked up.
I wish I could communicate this stuff
without all the attitude,
but, then, the attitude is part of my truth,
and my truth is that I am offended
by your recent behavior towards me.

My feelings and thoughts about this are complex,
and, believe it or not,
I am capable of having anger towards you,
and of feeling mercy for you at the same time.
But right now, I'm upset,
and, rather than detatch from it,
and act like its no big deal,
I'm expressing it in the hopes that
we may yet come to a higher understanding.

posted February 14, 2008 12:23 PM            

I'm sorry if I am mistaken about you.
These are just my perceptions at the moment.

posted February 14, 2008 03:17 PM              

Sorry to hear your having a painful time HSC. I'll be thinking of you and better days to come your way.

Hugs,
GG

------------------
The truth is ... everything counts. Everything. Everything we do and everything we say. Everything helps or hurts; everything adds to or takes away from someone else. ~ Countee Cullen

posted February 14, 2008 03:44 PM            

Everybody hurts.
Everybody deals with it differently.
Some people try to help out of their goodness, or their feeling that they can relate and bring some peace to another human who is hurting.
Like me. I'm a pain in the ass who thinks oh so many things about what she has just read and had wanted to say some things, but then was a***ucked by opposing emotions and doesn't really know what to say now.
Do I dare try and say something kind or supportive?
Do I even hint that I can see where anyone else is coming from, in the hopes of easing tension (cuz that's what I always do... Love to be in the storm, ya know? Rescuing the drowning)?
Should I just ignore this completely and go on with my day?
Well, I can't do the latter, as I think highly of you, Steve. And I have seen people in the same state. Not that they are you, or you are them, or they are me.... but I have seen similar emoting, there is nothing any of us can say that will make you feel better.
Whether we try to splash this board with hocus-pocusy-New-Agey-let's-all-talk-in-riddles-cuz-we're-so-divine or really truly try to relate, when you are in this place, the only thing any of us can do for you is keep you in our hearts and hope you find your way through it.
Well, that's what I get from what has been said...
I know you have put yourself out there and been vulnerable. I respect that, I think most people do.
And you totally proved your point of Scorpionic ways by lashing out at everyone who tried to give you a kind word.
Has your mind melted all kindness the world has and begun to fear everyone's motives?
Lay off the grass, man.
I'm not trying to be mean, but this really has fired me up. Kinda hard to do, as I'm usually the one in difussion-of-the-bomb mode.

When this thread began, I had the notion that perhaps you put women up on pedestals. Or you had been burned by some that you cared too deeply for, thus never being able to let them in, although you want and yearn for them.

All of a sudden, I am hurt just thinking about what you will say to anyone who would try to say anything to relate to you. To bring you a little human comfort... Isn't that what you want? Or, wish you could be strong enough to have?

I don't know, you have always been a voice of peace and shared so much beauty with us here. This sadness and inability to recognize truth is heartbreaking to me.

Hate to join the bandwagon, but it reminds me of someone I used to know. He was amazing. A true artist and person who LOVED. Just, never really gave up on the idea.... Then would be so crushed, there was nothing anyone could say to him where he didn't feel like he was being attacked.

I'm not trying to attack you. (although, I think you will say I am). I'm not sticking up for anyone, I'm not taking sides. I'm an Aquarius sun 11th house... I don't take sides.

But I am actually worried about you. On a deeper level. Sometimes people can't be reached. And it hurts those who try...

I wish you peace. I really probably make no sense in this post. My thoughts never do seem able to keep up with each other. But I hope you find serenity again. Whatever is going on, I truly, deeply hope you find an understanding.

posted February 14, 2008 04:17 PM            

Ghani,

I appreciate what you are trying to do,
and the manner in which you tried to do it.
Thank you so much.

I'm Aquarian and Uranian myself,
so, dont imagine that I won't surprise you.
My own 11th house is occupied by a Neptune singleton,
ruler of my South Node; you get the idea.

Though it may be too much to ask,
I ask you not to assume that you have
ever seen anyone in a position like mine.
My position is about as unique as it gets.

I know the knee-jerk reaction is to find
arrogance, and only arrogance, in what I just said,
and you have no idea how sorry I am for that,
or how inconvenient that is for me.
The reality is that anomalous conditions do occur,
and that my own condition is one such anomaly.
For the most part, this is my personal truth,
and my sincere plea for understanding;
not my stubbornness and arrogance speaking.

I think what has gone on in this thread is deeper
than any summary any of us would like to give,
but I add your comments to those of others,
and everything, I hope, will help me to see it more clearly.

I'm sorry your reaction to this thread,
like my own, and some others',
has been so unpleasant.