posted February 22, 2008 08:52 PM         

quote:

---

...it's not about pretending or faking it till youve made it really. once in awhile it just reveals itself naturally. ...it's really more about allowing it, wouldnt you agree?

---

Actually there is a passage about this in the book I am reading.
I'l copy it out for you if you want, but basically,
what the master says is that, in the beginning,
the will must be trained to submit, and this is painful,
but, when you have created the habit of attention,
and learned to focus on the essential points,
then you can begin to really allow the flow.

First, many bad habits must be carefully undone,
before the original nature may relfect itself.

This is just what this one book says.
The book I mentioned earlier, I think.
Or it might have been this other one,
"The Three Pillars of Zen".
I forget which one it was.

posted February 22, 2008 11:31 PM         

i'm glad that you all have the chance to talk amongst yourselves.

be happy, be free, love one another.

and again, i will not speak about Mystic Melody here with others; therefore, there isn't much else for me to say.

posted February 23, 2008 12:04 AM         

quote:

---

People make no secret of the fact that they are disagreeing with you.
For what reason, then, do you take offense with them?

---

i just meant that in the most general of ways....amending my sentence to say the following ~

i do admire Listens to Trees for her ability always to respond in a gentle manner. of course i have something to learn from her, and others who both value kindness and compassion, and demonstrate them consistently.

to saying "those who demonstrate these in a sincere way." more often than not, the insults are delivered and disguised in the sweetest and/ or most underhanded of ways.

i meant that in general, across the board -- happens all the time here. an insult is an insult, whether delivered gently or no. i really do admire those who consistently manage to communicate in a kind and gentle way, with all sincerity. and yes, they are few here, but there are some. like Listens to Trees.

posted February 23, 2008 03:00 AM         

You know, i think ive read something like this before. It sounds familiar. And i do agree that it can help to fake it until you make it to some extent.

..."trained to submit"......reminds me of what i've been saying alot lately about "being broken". not sure where i came up with that one and it's too much too explain here. or if it even relates.

the habit of paying attention.. yes.
focusing on essential points.. yes.
the original nature.. yes.

All things to work on and pay attention to.

posted February 23, 2008 06:18 AM         

Really
Interesting
Playful
Posting
Loving
Everyone

Serenity
Understanding
Please
Pass
Omniscient
Rewarding
Thoughts

posted February 23, 2008 08:57 AM         

I think Zanya responded in the way she did as a means of defense to what she perceived as attack. (I'm not saying it was right or anything). At the time of reading it, when I did not participate, I probably had a biased frame of mind due to the fact I had been hurt by my own experience.

Zanya is a good person.
This is why I felt I had to say something on this thread- she is not the monster some of you seem to have made her out to be, even though I don't agree with her choice of words now I have given it some thought. It was nasty and over-exaggerated at the time. However, she was just defending herself in the way she knew how, IMO.
How many of us can say we too have not used harsh words, sarcastic words in times of hurt and defense?
Not one of us can say we have not- we are all guilty of it. We may have different ways of doing it, but it is just as hurtful.

I know each person is from a different planet, but it would be nice if we could eventually come to some understanding.

posted February 23, 2008 09:05 AM         

quote:

---

..."trained to submit"......reminds me of what i've been saying alot lately about "being broken". not sure where i came up with that one and it's too much too explain here. or if it even relates.

---

That's why it helps to keep lots of friends. Friends can help to keep us strong and keep us balanced when experiences have not been so kind.

posted February 23, 2008 09:10 AM         

quote:

---

i'm pleased that everyone is so pleased with themselves.

---

I dont think anyone here is especially pleased
with their handling of this prickly situation.

quote:

---

as i said to Mystic Melody, i don't mind being disliked, esp here in LL, where there is so much more to the issues (all issues) than the surface accusations being slung about.

---

You are not disliked, Zanya.

Your behavior, in one instance, one thread,
is under review, and is found wanting.
Not you, but your behavior.

There are no "surface accusations".
There are just your own words,
there for all to see.

If you can take responsibility for that,
we can all get beyond it.

If you resort to generalizations
and "platitudes", as you say,
about how all issues in LL are complex,
and nothing you say matters anyway,
then we are not going to get beyond this point.

You screwed up. You were caught.
I respect that you dont want to discuss Melody,
and all the "deeper" reasons for the hatred we saw you vent.
But, unless Melody has been harrassing you in private, --
unless there are extreme extenuating circumstances, --
then I cant see what would possibly justify
the sort of language and belligerance in your posts to her.
If you can say you regret speaking that way to her,
then, I can thank you, and have nothing more to do with this.
If you can't, but, instead, choose to call my own initegrity,
and the integrity of others here into question,
then, it seems to me, the matter is not closed.

quote:

---

what i say will not make a whit of difference anyway, and i'm not in any kind of mood for empty platitudes.

---

If you havent learned anything,
then, I agree with you, --
whatever you say will make no sense,
and no difference.

I'm not in the mood for empty platitudes either.
I just want to hear you say that the language you used
was clearly vicious and uncalled for.
When I hear that, I can begin to trust you again.

This isnt something to sweep under the rug.
This is the work we are all here to accomplish,
and this is what makes it possible for us
to coexist and post alongside each other
without feeling uneasy in each others' presences.

I'm asking you, for my own peace of mind,
to assure us that the words you used are not a reflection of you.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt that they were not, and, yet,
here you are, refusing to distance yourself from them.
If you cannot disassociate yourself from words like that,
then they continue to be identified with you,
and they continue to be a smirch on your screenname.

What concerns me even more than the language you used,
is your present refusal to accept resonsibility for it.
If you really have no respect for my opinion of you,
or for anyone else here's opinion of you,
then, by all means, dismiss this as inconsequential;
leave it unresolved, and it will remain in the background,
gnawing at the cores of your best posts and most noble gestures.
But, if you can step outside yourself and see it for what it was,
and tell us that you regret using such inflammatory language,
then we can all put the matter to rest (as we'd all rather do),
and get on with enjoying the lighter side of Lindaland.

It doesnt matter that you dont want to talk about Melody.
Nobody is asking you to talk about Melody, and, in fact,
we are, on the contrary, asking you not to shift the focus.
Melody's behavior in that thread was a blessing compared to yours.
If she had an equal share in the sh-t, she would have flung it then.
Instead, she offered to reconcile with you, in the gentlest words
that she could muster in the face of your rapidfire insults.
So, no, I dont want to go on discussing Melody, either.
I'd much rather hear you take responsibility for your own part.

posted February 23, 2008 09:21 AM         

Nobody is making Zanya out to be a "monster",
although she certainly did that to Melody;
describing her as "bloodthirsty", with "claws", etc.

I think its careless of you to inverse that.

I have spent a lot of time and energy
trying to make it very clear that
we are all guilty of things like this,
from time to time,
and that, this time, its Zanya's turn
to take responsibility and learn something.

She, and you, have interpreted this as a personal attack,
and that is the source of the greatest misunderstanding here.

I personally feel that the language she used,
and the emphatic repetition of that language,
is particularly upsetting, --
and maybe that is a matter of personal taste,
just as I have tried to present it, --
or maybe my feelings are more common than I know.

But I dont think we are in need of debating the finer points.
I think anyone who looks at the situation without bias,
from whatever planet they hail, can see that Zanya's responses
were more than a little excessive --
whether or not we compare them to Melody's.

I've nothing more to say about this.

You can go on weighing it all day long,
trying to make it all balance out,
but, as soon as you take your thumb off the scale,
you'll see that it is not at all balanced out.

Not until Zanya apologizes.

posted February 23, 2008 09:48 AM         

quote:

---

an insult is an insult, whether delivered gently or no.

---

I have tried to make my own position clear.

To some extent, yes, an insult is an insult.

The ideal is the ideal,
and we are all sinners compared to the ideal.

I'm glad you can see that.

But there is a difference in degree among sins.

Words are energy signatures.

Soft words are soft.

Harsh words are harsh.

And it is a greater insult to slap a person in the face,
than to say, "I always felt uncomfortable around you."

Do you really think that a flurry of slaps in the face
would not awaken your ire far more
than a rebuke delivered in a civil tone and tongue,
and accompanied by a few cushioning compliments as well?

If this is really your position,
then you need a wake up call;
you are clearly reaching.

posted February 23, 2008 09:59 AM         

and make no mistake, i have not shirked my responsibilities for anything. quite the contrary.

now see, you keep analyzing my behavior here...so there really is no way for me to enter into a valid discussion of the events without my analyzing Mystic Melody's behavior, in relation to mine, and that i won't do. sorry to disappoint you. sorry i disagree so sincerely with your tactics, but what else is there, eh?

and i have not called into question the integrity of anyone -- yours, or anyone else's, nor have i even mentioned it; your perspective is simply different than mine. but, believe me, i have learned a lot!!

there's much lacking in what i just want to hear here as well. but that's nothing new either. please don't worry about trusting me. it's not something that i find that has any meaning here whatsoever -- not because of you or anything...again, just the nature of the beast.

and, if you will re-read my words here, i have blamed no one, for anything -- not you, not Mystic Melody, not anyone. i've had my hand slapped here before, and been told what a naughty person i am. my screenname is already well "smirched"....oh well....what is a less-than-angelic girl do?

i have disagreed with your behavior before, and you spent great energy and numerous words justifying yourself, and though i never agreed with your self-justification, neither did i ever "demand" retribution from you, like a parent from a wayward child. i respected you more than that.

posted February 23, 2008 10:13 AM         

quote:

---

She, and you, have interpreted this as a personal attack,
and that is the source of the greatest misunderstanding here.

---

nope nope nope....i have not said anything of the sort...about attacks or interpretations or anything. where do you come up with this stuff?

you seem to be so focused on my statement...that i admire people who are sincerely kind and compassionate, and who do not hide insults in words of fake sincerity, or otherwise underhanded, snide and sneaky ways. it's a general sentiment...not necessarily one that applies here.....and i haven't stated, nor implied as much. disagreeing with someone, their words or actions, does not comprise an insult to me. sorry my words offend you so much.

posted February 23, 2008 10:22 AM         

And I'm not demanding anything from you. I'm just informing you of what my own position is, and, like I said, if you dont care what I think of you, then, you have nothing to worry about.

I dont expect you to be an angel. And, as you can see, I dont expect Melody to be an angel, either. But, distinguishing between two human beings (or "beasts", if you must), I can clearly see the difference between "please, leave me alone", and "you are sad, pathetic, territorial and reek of sulfur"; -- between "I'm sorry if I over-reacted, thank you for the brownies" and "spitting venom and hate-filled and bloodthirsty and pouncing and smoldering and vehement and sad and venomous and hate-filled and bloodthirsty, and, did I say 'territorial' already?...."

I'm not wasting my time on this any more.

If anyone needs convincing,
all you have to do is read the thread.
I suggest you do it with your eyes open.

posted February 23, 2008 10:26 AM         

You told me I was "passing judgement" on you, for one thing.

posted February 23, 2008 10:27 AM         

and i did not use the words "spitting words of venom." again, an attempt to draw the argument from that thread over here, but very unnecessary, for me anyway. i repeated the word "venom" after Mystic Melody introduced it. that is all. and that is enough. i am not interested in the least in continuing the argument.

posted February 23, 2008 10:28 AM         

quote:

---

You told me I was "passing judgement" on you, for one thing.

---

and you are!

but i don't "interpret" that as an "attack".

posted February 23, 2008 10:32 AM         

quote:

---

it's a general sentiment...

---

Yes, I know.

You are fond of those today, it seems.

But you are in a hurry to avoid any discussion
of where your "general sentiments" apply
to the particulars of the present situation,
and what purpose or cause you have to make them.

quote:

---

not necessarily one that applies here....

---

Indeed.

posted February 23, 2008 10:39 AM         

what caused me to make that statement, my purpose in doing so, was your demand that i take note of my evil wrongdoings, and say so. i did so with my sincere statement that i had, and that i have much to learn from those kind souls more gentle than myself.

i revised my statement to add the disclaimer, as it occurs to me that insulting others here in the disguise of kind words or underhanded innuendo is quite common here, and not something that i admire in the least. to differentiate, you see. it really was a very general statement, with no hidden meaning whatsoever to this particular situation.

posted February 23, 2008 10:39 AM         

quote:

---

and you are!

but i don't "interpret" that as an "attack".

haha.

---

I'm not passing judgment on you, Zanya.

I'm telling you what I think of something that you did.
It doesnt mean I dont see the good in you, or have given up on you,
as implied by the finality of the word judgment,
which people always invoke when they feel they are under attack.

If you are not interpreting my admonishment as an "attack",
then I am more than happy to retract that statement,
and I'm glad to hear that your perceptions of this
are not nearly as skewed as your perceptions
of what went on between you and Melody.
Perhaps, as you say, you really have learned something.

posted February 23, 2008 10:43 AM         

When zanya's final sentancing is decided on could someone please give me a heads up? thanks.

posted February 23, 2008 10:48 AM         

do you think that "passing judgment" on someone constitutes an attack? i don't.

it really is all about perceptions, isn't it?