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Author Topic:   What Would Rumi Think?
26taurus
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posted April 02, 2009 07:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 26taurus     Edit/Delete Message
Over the years I've often wondered what Rumi (and other great Love poets) think about people misinterpreting the meanings behind their words. For instance when I see people quoting bits by him along with information they proceed to give about finding one's soulmate or twinflame on a website or fitting them into articles on romantic relationships etc. It often fits in nicely with what they are saying and it's coming from a great Master so...they think it must be true that we are all in search of that perfect soulmate/twinflame relationship that he speaks of and must find it at all costs.

Is he not talking of Union with the Creator? Of man and divine self and the ecstacy that comes along with that? I've been taught he is speaking of a sacred marriage that may take place within each of us alone. The one that is most important.

Does it sadden him to think that people are being misled? Or is he joyful that his words temporarily give them joy and expand their love consiousness or heart for a time being? Knowing we all eventually come home. He knows that the Creator is in each and every human being so in a certain way, they are not misguided when they love someone else. But if you are not conscious of Who you are actually loving when you love someone and think it's the person themself, they will always disappoint. And on you go again, searching for that Divine Love he speaks of thinking it's that ever elusive soulmate.

Does this make sense? Perhaps I'm way off base. I've been afraid to bring it up in threads before, though I know that some of you know what I'm speaking of.

Was Rumi aware his words would be taken the wrong way by some? ....I guess every great sage knows that but says them anyway.....knowing at some point in time, all ears will hear.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted April 03, 2009 12:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Have you ever heard of Shams of Tabriz?

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TINK
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posted April 03, 2009 12:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for TINK     Edit/Delete Message
Shams was Rumi's teacher and there was a great friendship between them.

That's a lovely post, 26. Lovely thoughts.

Love will find its way through all languages

my two cents
looking forward to others

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26taurus
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posted April 03, 2009 01:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 26taurus     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
Have you ever heard of Shams of Tabriz?

No, but he's (?) about to get googled....

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26taurus
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posted April 03, 2009 01:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 26taurus     Edit/Delete Message
oh, TINK! I didnt see you there. Just a moment....

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26taurus
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posted April 03, 2009 01:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 26taurus     Edit/Delete Message
Thank you for stopping by to share your thoughts TINK. I was hoping you would and also hope to learn/hear more. I read your posts very intently.

I'm now eager to hear the Quran recited, it sounds enchanting. I don't know much of anything about Dante, Beatrice, The Bible, Gospels, but agree with what you are saying about the Spirit in the Word. He's even right here in your post. Even though I wasnt brought up religiously and am uneducated in these old stories many of you speak of, for the most part, i still follow.

quote:
How many really understand the Gospels? Understand them from an historical or esoteric or cultural perspective. Probably not too many. But the Gospels are alive. The Spirit of Christ is imbued in them. And so many who would never call themselves a Christian or willingly align themselves with a Church have felt the power and beauty of the Word.

That was a most beautiful way of putting it.

and again here:

quote:
I think Dante loved Beatrice better because he loved God. I think he loved God all the more because he loved Beatrice.

Beautiful!

quote:
So, no, I don't think Rumi would mind. There's something there for everyone. Onward and upward. I don't think he would mind at all.

Love will find its way through all languages


Thank you.


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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted April 03, 2009 02:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
More than his friend and teacher.

They were soul mates.

Rumi titled his poems:
"the poems of shams of tabriz"

Shams was a saint who prayed to God...

The only thing he wanted
was a companion suitable to himself.

God said, "What will you give?"

Shams said he would give his head.

(if I am remembering the tale correctly)

So then he meets Rumi and they
hit it off like two saintly peas in a pod.

Then Shams is chased away,
because people are jealous of them or something.

But he returns and then he is killed;
he loses his head, as he promised.

Rumi then becomes divinely intoxicated,
and his poems are inspired by the spirit
of his lost soul mate, Shams.


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26taurus
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posted April 03, 2009 02:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 26taurus     Edit/Delete Message

I died from the mineral and became a plant;
I died from the plant, and reappeared in an animal;
I died from the animal and became a man;
Wherefore then should I fear?
When dids I grow less by dying?
Next time I shall die from the man,
That I may grow the wings of angels.
From the angel, too, must I seek advance;
All things shall perish save His face
Once more shall I wing my way above the angels;
I shall become that which entereth not the imaginations.
Then let me become naught, naught, for the harp string crieth unto me,
Verily unto Him do we return ...

Jalai Al-Din (Sufi Mystic Poet)

_____________________________

Some words I had never read before:
_____________________________

Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment.
Cleverness is mere opinion, bewilderment is intuition.

All day I think about it, then at night I say it. Where did I come from, and what am I supposed to be doing? I have no idea. My soul is from elsewhere, I'm sure of that, and I intend to end up there.

This poetry. I never know what I'm going to say.
I don't plan it.
When I'm outside the saying of it,
I get very quiet and rarely speak at all.

Disputational knowing wants customers.
It has no soul.

Silence
is an ocean. Speech is a river.

Christ is the population of the world,
and every object as well. There is no room
for hypocrisy. Why use bitter soup for healing
when sweet water is everywhere?

The cure for pain is in the pain.
Good and bad are mixed. If you don't have both,
you don't belong with us.

Learn from Ali how to fight
without your ego participating.
God's lion did nothing
that didn't originate
from his deep center.
"Ali in Battle" an account of Ali ibn Abi Talib's explanation as to why he declined to kill someone who had spit in his face as Ali was defeating him in battle, in Ch. 20 In Baghdad dreaming of Cairo


The human body and the universe grew from this, not this from the universe and the human body.
I am God's Lion, not the lion of passion....
I have no longing
except for the One.
When a wind of personal reaction comes,
I do not go along with it.
There are many winds full of anger,
and lust and greed. They move the rubbish around,
but the solid mountain of our true nature stays where it's always been.

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26taurus
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posted April 03, 2009 02:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 26taurus     Edit/Delete Message
Beautiful HSC!

Hope to get around to reading the tale someday...

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted April 03, 2009 02:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted April 03, 2009 02:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Jalaluddin Rumi (1207-1273) was born in what is now Afghanistan, but when he was five, with the threat of the Mongul invasion growing, his father fled with his family, finally arriving in Konya, Turkey, in 1220. In 1226 Rumi married and subsequently had a son, Sultan Veled.

Following closely in the footsteps of his father, a renowned theologian, Rumi took up the study of religion. After his father's death (1230) he continued his religious studies, guided for some years by a friend of his father's. He also studied with some of the greatest religious minds of the time in Aleppo and Damascus.

By a young age Rumi had become a well respected religious teacher like his father before him. But everything changed in 1244 when he encountered Shams of Tabriz, a wild-looking dervish (Sufi) who appeared one day out of the blue. Shams had the profoundest influence on Rumi - right from the start they were practically inseparable from one another. What Shams awoke in Rumi was direct awareness of the Beloved within. In other words, with the help of Shams, Rumi awoke to who he really was. He moved from studying texts about the One to seeing the One - in fact to realising that in the depths of his being he was the One.

But Rumi's disciples were jealous of Shams. They drove him away - Shams fled to Damascus. Rumi had his son fetch him back. But the disciples' jealousy remained. Shams disappeared again, this time once and for all, and in mysterious circumstances. Some say Rumi's disciples murdered him.

But something profound had now happened in Rumi. He had awoken to his true nature - the profoundest change possible in life. Following on from this Awakening, Rumi began composing poetry - it poured from him in almost any and every situation. (His disciples took to writing down these spontaneous outpourings.) He also initiated what is the now famous whirling dervish dance. By the time of his death Rumi had become the most prolific and greatest poet of Islam. He still retains this title.

But let's go back to Rumi's meeting with Shams of Tabriz - the turning point in Rumi's life. What happened between them? We cannot know the details of their relationship - the conversations, the feelings, the laughter, the tears. This is hidden from us, just as much of it would probably have been hidden from Rumi's disciples. But the essence of their relationship need not be hidden from us - the Oneness they experienced. For this Oneness is at the heart of everyone's being, and is as available to us now as it was to them then.

Who we all really are is the Source, the endlessly creative fountainhead from which everything flows - not just Rumi's vast output of mystical poetry but all things. Mysteriously, in the depth of our souls each of is the Beloved. None dwells in the heart but God.

No wonder Rumi valued Shams' friendship. Shams had shared with him, indeed awoken in him, the most precious thing in the world - the presence of the Beloved within. Like Rumi, we have all been brought up to think of ourselves as this or that person. We look in the mirror and see there our reflection. Everyone around us reflects back to us our unique (and precious) human identity. The overwhelming weight of opinion is that this is who we are.

But imagine being Rumi, faced with this wild-eyed, energetic, warm-hearted, iconclastic Shams. Imagine Shams pointing out the simplest thing in the world - that you cannot see your own face. Look in the mirror - there is your face. But over here, in the place you are looking out of, is no-face. Look back and you will see the absence of your cheek: here nothing is visible. Nothing but Emptiness, the Origin of the world.

Seeing that he had no face of his own, Rumi would simultaneously see that Shams' face was his own. He was not actually face to face with Shams, but face to 'no-face'. Rumi had Shams' face, and Shams had Rumi's. How obvious! Yet this simple truth is the foundation of love, for there is no profounder intimacy than this - to disappear in favour of one's friend. Seeing this, we shift from identifying primarily with appearances, (the image in the mirror, or the image in one's own or other people's minds), to experiencing and identifying with one's central reality, which is imageless. Imageless - and simultaneously room for others, room for the world.

What joy it must have been for those two to be awake to this simplest but profoundest of truths.

After Shams' disappearance Rumi went on to create the whirling dervish dance, to the sound of the reed flute and drum. What was this dance really about? Well, if you yourself experiment, turning round and round on the spot, you may find that it is the world that moves whilst you remain still. (See the experiment Spinning the World http://www.headless.org). Here in one's centre forever abides Stillness. As Rumi turned and turned he would see the trees, the ground, his disciples, the sun and moon and stars - all moving by. He would see his body, his outstretched arms, his feet - all in motion. But nearer than this was Stillness, Silence, Peace. As he turned and turned - as he relaxed into letting the world turn - his sense of union with the Source would deepen. The profundity and marvel and mystery of Stillness would engulf him, washing over him wave upon wave. In that Ocean of Love he drowned, dissolving till only the Ocean remained. Whilst at the centre of the whirling world was Stillness, neither coming nor going, a Rock ever present and reliable, all around flowed the joy, the ecstasy of the dance. In the midst of the blurred, spinning world he had surrendered, drunk with the beauty and wisdom and love of the Beloved.

Rumi had become an intensely passionate poet and mystic. By good fortune he had found the Beloved, awakened to his innermost identity by the wild Shams. But more profoundly, as his poetry makes clear, it was the Beloved within which had called out to him, again and again beckoning him Home. In fact, at the deepest level it was the Beloved stumbling upon Itself through him - God re-discovering His own wonderful, inexplicable Being in the midst of this extraordinary, wild, unexpected, living cosmos.

May each of us hear the call of the Beloved.

http://netowne.com/eastern/islam/index.htm

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MysticMelody
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posted April 03, 2009 11:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MysticMelody     Edit/Delete Message
very good thread, made me feel better

that head link for the whirling dervish doesn't work (fyi)

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juniperb
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posted April 03, 2009 12:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message


Love has nothing to do with

the five senses and the six directions:

its goal is only to experience

the attraction exerted by the Beloved.

Afterwards, perhaps, permission

will come from God:

the secrets that ought to be told with be told

with an eloquence nearer to the understanding

that these subtle confusing allusions.

The secret is partner with none

but the knower of the secret:

in the skeptic's ear

the secret is no secret at all.

Hezrat Molana. Jalal al-Din Muhammad Rumi

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MysticMelody
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posted April 03, 2009 12:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MysticMelody     Edit/Delete Message
I was understanding 1/2 way, Juni.

What is the "commanding self"?
I mean, I know it relates to concepts like "ego" etc. but what is it specifically and how is it used in context and is used by a specific religion or philosophy... and relating to this...

I guess I mean,
Would you expand on that, please?

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sunshine_lion
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posted April 03, 2009 01:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sunshine_lion     Edit/Delete Message
great stuff guys!

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ghanima81
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posted April 03, 2009 01:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ghanima81     Edit/Delete Message
Thank you for these thoughts, LLers. I find this site always seems to have exactly what I need at certain times... There has been a culmination of this line of thinking buliding up for a while now, so thank you, T, for shedding some light on it and getting others to share their views/insights.

I know I personally have much to learn and my journey is really just beginning in so many ways. It seems like my family has this picture that you have to be in a relationship to be happy. Obviously, my situation would put them in the position where they would think that is best. But upon much reflection, I still have so much to do inside myself, so much love to understand, I cannot say that I "need a soulmate" in the way some see it. I think I need me, and this was an excellent reminder that that path is so much more worth it to me at this point.

Thank you.

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juniperb
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posted April 03, 2009 01:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message

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TINK
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posted April 03, 2009 01:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TINK     Edit/Delete Message
Ghanima - having a baby really can have the most transformative effect on a girl, can't it? It sure is a wild ride.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted April 03, 2009 02:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
"Do not attempt to go beyond
where you have yet to begin."
(~ origin unknown)

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MysticMelody
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posted April 03, 2009 03:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MysticMelody     Edit/Delete Message
Thank you That's very interesting and adds to my understanding. I was thinking (warning: I've been questioning my faith for a day or so) what if you never had one in the first place?? ha ha ha because I was trying to understand how to apply "frozen". Your contribution shall be filed and incorporated when I'm not looking or at a later date.

Ghani, your soul mate is on the way. Bookmark this site so you can tell me how right I am in however many months. Well, not "mate" as in animal kingdom but "mate" as in soul friend, amen.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted April 03, 2009 04:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
not "mate" as in animal kingdom but "mate" as in soul friend

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted April 03, 2009 04:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
quote:

after a period of heavy contemplation,
every love song she heard on the radio seemed
to be talking about the insatiable yearning for God

I've experienced this, too.

I've also felt the presence of God speaking to me
through the longing and loving words of a partner.

Maybe Rumi would know what I'm talking about?

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ghanima81
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posted April 03, 2009 04:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ghanima81     Edit/Delete Message
I'm sure you are right, Mel. On that I CAN be sure. It's the only thing I am sure of these days, and that's okay with me.

I am enjoying the experience of being his/her vessel right now, but cannot wait to "meet" in the flesh. I have felt him/her move once, and it was like a little "hello, mother, here I am"... so amazing, my tears of joy literally stained my blanket. I will always remember that moment...

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted April 03, 2009 04:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message

The unconscious is too neutral and rational a term to give much impetus to the imagination. The term, after all, was coined for scientific purposes, and is far better suited to dispassionate observation, which makes no metaphysical claims, than are the transcendental concepts, which are controversial and therefore tend to breed fanaticism. Hence, I prefer the term “the unconscious”, knowing that I might equally well speak of “God” or “daimon” if I wished to express myself in mythic language. When I do use such mythic language, I am aware that “mana”, “daimon”, and “God” are synonyms for the unconscious - that is to say, we know just as much or just as little about them as about the latter. People only believe they know much more about them - and for certain purposes that belief is far more useful and effective than a scientific concept. The great advantage of the concepts "daimon" and "God" lies in making possible a much better objectification of the vis-a-vis, namely, a personification of it. Their emotional quality confers life and effectuality upon them. Hate and love, fear and reverence, enter the scene of the confrontation and raise it to a drama. What has merely been "displayed" becomes "acted". The whole man is challenged and enters the fray with his total reality. Only then can he become whole and only then can "God be born", that is, enter into human reality and associate with man in the form of "man". By this act of incarnation man -- that is, his ego -- is inwardly replaced by "God", and God becomes outwardly man, in keeping with the saying of Jesus: "Who sees me, sees the Father."


~ Carl Gustav Jung
Memories, Dreams, Reflections (p.336-337)

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MysticMelody
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posted April 03, 2009 05:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MysticMelody     Edit/Delete Message
"I tell you this: There is no coincidence, and nothing happens “by accident.” Each event and adventure is called to your Self by your Self in order that you might create and experience Who You Really Are."
-Conversations With God


Ghani, I will tell you what I felt in pregnancy after you are done being pregnant.


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